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Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days? in General Discussion; All vehicles with 3 row of seats available today (aside from the most gargantuan of american SUVs) have the rearmost ...
  1. #31
    hardrockcamaro@mac.c's Avatar
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    All vehicles with 3 row of seats available today (aside from the most gargantuan of american SUVs) have the rearmost row on or behind the rear axle.

    An impact with a closing speed of 60mph from behind is VERY rare.
    You would have to be at a complete stop and the vehicle behind would have to be travelling at highway speed.
    That means either you saw an accident ahead and did an emergency stop and the driver of the vehicle behind was not looking where they were going for like 6 seconds (the whatever time it would take you to stop).
    Or you would be waiting at a t-junciton to make a turn and again the driver approaching you from behind didn't see there was a T-Junction coming up and thus you statioanry at it.

    Both are *very* rare types of accidents.
    Plus, your vehicle is not a stationary object when hit from behind in eithe rcase, it gets pushed forwards thus reducing the force of the impact and thus the crushing of the rear.

    Most impacts from behind are from a vehicle following too close and when you go for the brakes they hit you, but the closing speed is far from highway speed. Often you have slowed to say 45-50mph from 60 and they hit you at 60. Closing impact 10-15mph. The rear of the car will be just fine at those speeds.


    An offset frontal impact is a much more common accident and in those cases the supposedly tanklike SUV can come off worse than a modern minivan.
    On a programme called Fifth Gear on TV over here last week, they crashed a brand new minivan headon into a Land Rover Discovery SUV, offset at 80mph closing speed.
    The minivan passengers came off better than the SUV ones even though the SUV was way bigger to look at.



    If you want 40mpg, room for 6 without having 3 across the front but no-one on or behind the rear axle you're living in a dream world.
    To get 6 in a vehicle with only 2 people in the front means you need 3 rows of seats. 3 rows of seats with a further trunk area behind means one loooooong vehicle. That means a heavy vehicle which means poor fuel efficiency. It's basic physics.


    What vehicle do you drive now to transport 6 of you?
    What fuel economy does it get and how good is it in an accident?

  2. #32
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    If I recall correctly NODIH has a large SUV as mentioned in your own post (I think) or he was considering one, and the Fleetwood with 3seats x 2rows for backup.

    Edit:

    Possibly more wrong than I thought on the SUV

  3. #33
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    I did see a video of a large SUV (eg Suburban or Excursion) in a crash test and it just crumpled to nothing.
    I can't find the video link, but here's one of an F150 which does the same thing:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=crash&pl=true

    That's at a mere 40mph

    Here's a Volvo at what I believe is the same speed (because that's what most get tested at by the likes of EuroNCAP):

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=crash&pl=true

    I didn't show a Volvo for any particular reason, it just happened to be the first car I came across.


    Pretty much no-one would expect the truck to deform worse than the car.

    The SUV's are mostly built on the truck platforms and perform about the same.

  4. #34
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    The only European minivan I know of that can take 6 without having a 3rd row of seats is the Fiat Multipla.

    But it obviously means having 3 across the front (although they are individual seats, not a bench).


  5. #35
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    I drive a 1996 Suburban and a 1994 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham. Big and boats....

    Sorry, I did mean, I need to carry 6 passengers AND their cargo... We just took a trip to Florida (1300 miles, around 2000 km) each way, and had to take everything short of the kitchen sink. So it gets crammed. No minivan made would do it. Only one that ever came close was the Aerostar. And they are crash nightmares and long out of production.

    Any crash test videos on the 1996-1999 Suburbans? I guess front end, the Chevy/GMC trucks would be similar.

    People cry that SUV's rollover too easy. They have a formula to calculate rollover likelyhood.

    "A vehicle's stability is measured by the formula---t/2h---where t is the 'track width' (center of the right front tire to the center of the left front tire) and h is the vehicle's center of gravity. When this number is 1.2 or greater, the vehicleis unlikely to roll. However, the further the ratio dips below 1.2, the greater the likelihood of rollover.

    "While many vehicles have safe ratios, the addition of passengers, cargo and a full tank of gas all occurs above the center of gravity, increasing the chance of a rollover accident. Given a real world scenario, the SUV would probably have cargo, multiple passengers, etc. This extra weight would definitely lower the ratio to dangerous levels if an accident were to occur at normal highway speeds. "

    Mine is in the 1.5+ range, closer to 2. I would have to dig up the exact cg value. But it is wide, 70-71 in track (as measured, I forget the specific number)

  6. #36
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    For your needs there are few vehicles that fit the bill really.

    Guess you're stuck with one of the bigger SUVs and a big gas bill. []

    To be honest, I've never understood the point of minivans that can seat 7 people leaving only room for 2 chocolate bars in the trunk...

  7. #37
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    I'd go for a deisel myself, if I had any money to replace my car. So, I stick with the Fleetwood and her 14mpg, and break out the bicycle.

  8. #38
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    I prefer diesels too. I want to get a 7.3L Diesel Excursion, they have killer power, killer potential and low 20's on the highway, if not better.

    As for safety, the K1500 is rated here:
    http://www.automotive.com/1996/12/ch...ety/index.html
    The Suburban is similar to the K1500 ext cab frame.

  9. #39
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    There are very good reasons why Diesels are DOA in America, first off, they stink and their exhaust stinks. Second reason, Diesels do not handle cold weather very well, they are noisy even the german vw golfs, passats, and mercedes, they are very expensive to maintain, and simply are not worth the price differential. There is only one reason why Europe has them, High Gas Taxes and only High Gas Taxes, their price of gas is artificially kept high by this appetite for taxes, something in America, that would not be tolerated, when things have settled down and prices dropped, then so will the demand for diesels, the best powerplant and most efficient is still the gas powered internal combustion engine. Sorry for the rant, but Diesels just drive me nuts..

  10. #40
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caddyshack100
    There are very good reasons why Diesels are DOA in America, first off, they stink and their exhaust stinks. Second reason, Diesels do not handle cold weather very well, they are noisy even the german vw golfs, passats, and mercedes, they are very expensive to maintain, and simply are not worth the price differential. There is only one reason why Europe has them, High Gas Taxes and only High Gas Taxes, their price of gas is artificially kept high by this appetite for taxes, something in America, that would not be tolerated, when things have settled down and prices dropped, then so will the demand for diesels, the best powerplant and most efficient is still the gas powered internal combustion engine. Sorry for the rant, but Diesels just drive me nuts..
    The most efficient is not the gas powered one.
    Diesel is more efficient. About 40% so as opposed to gas at 25%.

    They are noisy however and no they don't like extreme cold.

  11. #41
    N0DIH's Avatar
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    After my LT1 getting waxed by a diesel Ford Excursion a couple months ago I have a good respect for the TD's! And we weren't going slow, he passed me at 90+ mph, and my LT1 isn't a slouch.... I can take a Hemi Ram and spank it at those speeds (from 0 to 100 mph as a matter of fact..)..... Been there, done that....

    I'll take a rattler.... Diesel Excursion is likely the replacement to my Suburban. They last forever and get much better mileage than the gas engine, nearly 100% better in most cases compared to the 5.4L V8 or the 6.8L V10. That diesel rocks.

  12. #42
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Diesels arent as senstive about the cold as one might think ...The real trick is just to keep the fuel from "gelling" and dureing the winter , most stations do not provide the summer grade diesel fuel , the wintergrade has additional addtitives to keep the fuel from gelling ....

    Most diesels also have return fuel lines , so as long as the engine runs there is always warmed diesel headed to and from the injection pump ...

    Ive only seena few times that any of my diesels that i had in alaska were struck by cold weather issues , and when it was cold enough to effect a diesel , the gas engines werent much further behind ....

    Another big issue in cold weather for diesels is startup , but also nowdays thats pretty much been solved , some diesels that do not carry direct injection or "glow plugs" (or heather elemtns in the manilfolds) have a small either injection system , mash the "cold start" swtich while turning the engine over and she'll start right up ...With glowplugs you simply sit there and wait untill the "wait to start" light goes off , start the engine and voila , its running , some glow plug controllers will cycle the plugs a couple times after startup just to make sure everything stays OK ...

    The biggest damage done to the deisel rep came from those Olds diesels , which really werent that bad , but folks are used to naturally aspriated gas engines ....and mainted the poor thing like it was a gas engine , and drove it like one too ....not waiting to start , not useing the right oil , not paying attention to the coolant ...which was greeted with swelled up glow plugs , funky injection pump issues and headgaskets ....

    Also remeber , europe acutally gets halfway decent diesel fuel , we dont , ours has more sulfur in it then yellowstone natioal park ....thats whats really in the way of diesel technogly like what we see in the Audi R-10 ...there is alot on the horizon , only limited by the piss poor quailty fuel we have (gasoline and diesel fuel).....even tho oil comapnys belive we should pay exactly the same ammount the eurpeans do for there cleaner fuels....

    edit : another thing i should note is the possible effect the sulfur conteant has on the smell of burnt diesel , ever smell a biodiesel ? also modern particulate filters aid in removeing the smoke issues , they werent avialible int he olds diesel era ....

    gonna rape me for 5 bucks a gallon ? then at least clean up the fuel

  13. #43
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Just remember, the stock market (futures market) sets the oil price, not the oil industry. So we are handing ovedr $$ hand and fist to the oil companies and they have no choice but to take it. Everyone makes them out to be the bad guys, they don't get much choice.

    No one comments on the high gas prices are giving tons MORE $$ to the feds and state gov's in taxes. As the taxes are a % of the fuel price, it if doubled, they get double the tax % too.

    Should the oil industry give the $ back? No. McDonalds makes a higher profit margin than the oil industry, heck, 3x more. But we should smack the futures market that is setting the oil price. They just raise it just because they want to raise it. They are forecasting the price 3 months in the future and making us pay now for it.

    I wonder if gov regulation on it would be warranted.

    Dang, if we would just spend $$ on ethanol refineries, the cost would be 1/2 that of gasoline! I still like saving $0.60 a gallon running it now. Roughly saves me $9 a tank by using it. I can't complain. And for ever $60 I spend, I roughly go 60 to 100 miles more.

    Is E85 at all available in Europe?

  14. #44
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Right now, I'm getting 42-44 mpg in my TDI Jetta. I'm still waiting for it to be broken in.

  15. #45
    N0DIH's Avatar
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    A guy at work has one, that is about all he gets, I think he has topped 45. But he does see city/highway most of the time too.

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