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Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD! in General Discussion; Originally Posted by 77CDV FWIW, I think the new CTS is a very elegant design. But, I also think it's ...
  1. #76
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV View Post
    FWIW, I think the new CTS is a very elegant design. But, I also think it's overpriced for what it offers. The ATS is also a decent car for it's type, but again, it's severely overpriced for what it offers. The XTS....well, Momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing.

    Let's talk about the Cadillac everyone's been ignoring in this thread: the Escalade, specifically, the Escalade ESV. It's big. It's bold. People who have the means desire them. Yeah, it's a tarted up Suburban, but buyers don't seem to mind. They just want a large vehicle with all the comforts and toys that makes a strong visual statement. They're the kind of buyer who would have bought a Fleetwood back when, and the Escalade ESV is the closest thing to the old Fleetwood sedans Cadillac still builds. Now, I have no earthly use or desire for a truck, but if Cadillac could channel the attitude and style that the Escalade ESV reflects into a full-sized, RWD, V8-powered sedan and coupe with contemporary styling, priced in accordance with reality, I really think that would do the trick.
    It appears to me the numbers confirm this theory.
    What does GM currently sell that is American sized - unique - contemporary - American styling?
    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
    http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/imp...iew-pod-anchor
    They messed up the dash and the economy seems to have effected there steady sales.
    The market is full of the types of vehicles Cadillac is currently offering.

  2. #77
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by amunderdog View Post
    The market is full of the types of vehicles Cadillac is currently offering.
    I get your point. I just sold all my telecom stock and put the money into a company that makes phone booths!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV
    FWIW, I think the new CTS is a very elegant design. But, I also think it's overpriced for what it offers. The ATS is also a decent car for it's type, but again, it's severely overpriced for what it offers. The XTS....well, Momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing. Let's talk about the Cadillac everyone's been ignoring in this thread: the Escalade, specifically, the Escalade ESV. It's big. It's bold. People who have the means desire them. Yeah, it's a tarted up Suburban, but buyers don't seem to mind. They just want a large vehicle with all the comforts and toys that makes a strong visual statement. They're the kind of buyer who would have bought a Fleetwood back when, and the Escalade ESV is the closest thing to the old Fleetwood sedans Cadillac still builds. Now, I have no earthly use or desire for a truck, but if Cadillac could channel the attitude and style that the Escalade ESV reflects into a full-sized, RWD, V8-powered sedan and coupe with contemporary styling, priced in accordance with reality, I really think that would do the trick.
    The Escalade is the new Fleetwood Brougham, but many on this forum condemn that vehicle for being nothing more than a Suburban. The same could've been said about the old Fleetwood Brougham's being nothing more than a fancy Caprice, especially the last generation model.

    I get what some of you guys are saying, but Cadillac doesn't need to go back on their line-up and start building floaty cars now. Ciel would be AMAZING but Cadillac doesn't have the balls to build it. Sad, especially coming from the company that have us the '59 and the '67 Eldorado

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aron9000
    Which as a poor man, I bought a 1992 Lexus SC300, with a clutch pedal. I owned both a 1991 Brougham and 1995 Fleetwood, both based on that old body on frame chassis. At my price point, ie under $20,000, I would never consider a Cadillac, except for those old RWD sleds that were basically a Cadillac body/interior on a Chevrolet chassis/powetrain. IMO the main downfall of Cadillac for the past 20 years has been the quailty/engineering behind their cars. Granted they might have been fantastic in the warranty period, but the expense to maintain a FWD Northstar car has completely ruined the brand for an entire generation of buyers who picked up a 5 to 15 year old low mile Deville, Seville, or Eldorado. Go buy a similar mile, similar condition Lexus, it costs you about 1/4th of what a Cadilllac would cost you to run. I really wanted a 94ish to 2002 Eldorado with the Northstar, until I read about what it costs to run one. Decided to buy a Lexus SC, considering it costs about the same as a Corolla or Camry to run, disregarding the crappy gas mileage.
    Absolutely correct. I got rid of my last Deville because of the thousands I spent were keeping me in the poor house and it was showing signs of needing more work.

    I sold my Deville (2004 with 116k miles) for my '01 Accord V6 with 238k miles. I sold the Deville for $4200 and bought my Accord for the same price. If that doesn't show you something right there I don't know what would. It's pretty sad that a Cadillac costs the same as a Honda.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV View Post
    FWIW, I think the new CTS is a very elegant design. But, I also think it's overpriced for what it offers. The ATS is also a decent car for it's type, but again, it's severely overpriced for what it offers. The XTS....well, Momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing.
    I think the CTS looks too much like a bloated ATS. But anyone can only say a product is over or under priced for their wants, needs and affluence. The marketplace decides if it is in the ways that matter.

    These same ATSs and maybe XTSs were credited in Cadillac's 39% increase in sales a year or so ago. So I think its safe to say some other factor, like the economy or a bad tarot reading is a lot more responsible for the ups and downs in sales.

    And I heard my momma say the same thing when I was 1 year old and took it to heart. They thought I was a mute 'til I was 12 when I decided forget that. I haven't looked back.
    77CDV likes this.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    If the Escalade is the "new Fleetwood Brougham" then it is no wonder that potential buyers still flock to Mercedes and other alternatives!

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    I think the Escalade is a a station wagon. Plus I bet it doesn't even float!

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    SUVs in general are the station wagon replacements of today, being as capable but more stylish than minivans. And it's true the Escalade doesn't float. I've driven one. They glide, and rather nicely, too.

    I say the ATS and CTS are overpriced because when I compare them to other cars of equal price, I find they do not measure up in terms of content. Lop $10k off them, and they'd be about right.

    Ryan and Aaron also make good points with regard to Cadillac's reputation. Much as I loved the performance of my ETC, it was probably the least well built, least durable Cadillac I've ever owned. My 77 CDV has held up better, and it's pushing 40 years old! If the ETC had been subjected to the life my 69 FWB led before I bought and restored it, I doubt it would have survived to be saved! For all that we talk about style, content, and driving dynamics, the basic truth is that Cadillac has to prove it can build a $40k car that will not be a falling-apart POS in 10 years before they can even think about charging $70k and up for their erstwhile flagship. GM apparently knew how to do it once upon a time. If Cadillac wants my business in future, they need to build a CADILLAC worthy of the name, one that not only has the gizmos and gadgets and performance that it's market segment expects, but will hold together like a quality car should. People who plunk down the kind of cash Cadillac is offering do not expect blown engines, snapped timing chains, warped dash pads, cracking and peeling trim, disintegrating paint, and pieces falling off. It tends to leave people with a rather dim view of the brand.

  8. #83
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV View Post

    I say the ATS and CTS are overpriced because when I compare them to other cars of equal price, I find they do not measure up in terms of content. Lop $10k off them, and they'd be about right.
    Would you please name a few of those other cars of equal price that ATS doesn't measure up against them in terms of content?

    The MSRP for award wining ATS starts at $33,990. Subtract 10k from this and you will get $23,990, which is basically price tag of a base Toyota Camry or Accord. Does this sound right to you? My loaded Cadillac ATS performance with its light weighted, well balanced RWD chassis, 2.0 turbo engine, navigation, sunroof, driver awareness package, sports seats, back up camera, brembo brakes, HID and LEDs.... costs around 40k. This minus 10k gives you 30k, which is a price tag of a V-6 Accord or Camry with a few bells and whistles.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by orconn View Post
    If the Escalade is the "new Fleetwood Brougham" then it is no wonder that potential buyers still flock to Mercedes and other alternatives!
    Please name one person that previously purchased a Fleetwood Brougham who now buys Mercedes. They aren't even the same category of car! The Fleetwood was a throwback to Cadillac's glory days, and the Mercedes (namely S-Class) is a high end German luxury sedan with style and tech to match.

    Not one car manufacturer makes a car like Fleetwood Brougham anymore. Not one.

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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV View Post
    SUVs in general are the station wagon replacements of today, being as capable but more stylish than minivans. And it's true the Escalade doesn't float. I've driven one. They glide, and rather nicely, too.

    I say the ATS and CTS are overpriced because when I compare them to other cars of equal price, I find they do not measure up in terms of content. Lop $10k off them, and they'd be about right.

    Ryan and Aaron also make good points with regard to Cadillac's reputation. Much as I loved the performance of my ETC, it was probably the least well built, least durable Cadillac I've ever owned. My 77 CDV has held up better, and it's pushing 40 years old! If the ETC had been subjected to the life my 69 FWB led before I bought and restored it, I doubt it would have survived to be saved! For all that we talk about style, content, and driving dynamics, the basic truth is that Cadillac has to prove it can build a $40k car that will not be a falling-apart POS in 10 years before they can even think about charging $70k and up for their erstwhile flagship. GM apparently knew how to do it once upon a time. If Cadillac wants my business in future, they need to build a CADILLAC worthy of the name, one that not only has the gizmos and gadgets and performance that it's market segment expects, but will hold together like a quality car should. People who plunk down the kind of cash Cadillac is offering do not expect blown engines, snapped timing chains, warped dash pads, cracking and peeling trim, disintegrating paint, and pieces falling off. It tends to leave people with a rather dim view of the brand.
    I hate to differ as to the so-called "high quality" of fifties and sixties Cadillacs. If one goes back and reads the test and owner's reports from fifties and sixties in publications like "Popular Mechanics" you will find plenty of owner complaints about shoddy assembly and cars delivered with missing parts, this also holds true through the sixties. I had relatives and friends who had the then top of the line 1967 and '68 Eldorados that had miss-alligned interior trimmed and which rattled like a bucket of bolts after only two years use and ownership.

    The big advance in Cadillac quality of assembly and overall quality came with the introduction of the "76 Seville and the subsequent introduction of the "downsized" Cadillac line in 1977. These cars not only set a new standard for Cadillac handling but also were the first American cars in my experience that weren't falling apart rattle traps after a couple of years use. There was a reason why those that could afford to trade in their Cadillacs every two to three years did so .... the cars had deteriorated so much their owners had begun to be ashamed to drive them.

    It is true that Cadillacs were made from higher grade materials, had more layers of chrome plating and better grade upholstery and paint than less expensive makes, but Cadillacs were still made on higher speed assembly lines by workers many of really didn't give a damn about the quality of their work.

    I keep hearing about the good old days when Cadillacs were the "Standard of the World," unfortunately this was never really true. It is true that in the world of luxury automobiles American models were good value for the money. But the real zenith of the luxury car world were Rolls and Mercedes 300's (later to become the "S' class).
    ryannel2003 and ben.gators like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro-Ham View Post

    You guys are so in the tank for the current Cadillacs that it wouldn't matter what anyone else thinks.

    Perhaps government motors could find a sympathetic ear and an executive order to force all luxury cars sold in this country to be Cadillacs.
    Ah, no. Many of us are here because Cadillac and GM got their heads out of their posteriors and stopped making outdated, disconnected boats.

    I want a comfortable car that is roomy enough for passengers and stuff(like track tires) and buttoned down and fast as heck.

    Every generation of CTS has been more advanced, the ATS is the best handling sports sedan and the XTS is selling well. Escalades make a ton of money. As does the SRX.

    Cadillac is worlds better than they were a decade ago.

    Deal.

  12. #87
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    Ah, no. Many of us are here because Cadillac and GM got their heads out of their posteriors and stopped making outdated, disconnected boats.

    I want a comfortable car that is roomy enough for passengers and stuff(like track tires) and buttoned down and fast as heck.

    Every generation of CTS has been more advanced, the ATS is the best handling sports sedan and the XTS is selling well. Escalades make a ton of money. As does the SRX.

    Cadillac is worlds better than they were a decade ago.

    Deal.
    And I believe the opposite
    There is a gap in the market for big soft riding vehicles.
    Not everyone lives on a race track.
    Many people just want to get from point a to point b with comfort and convenience.
    I really like the early 90's models. When you get behind the wheel it is just simple bliss; Like the car says "I got the details handled you just drive"
    Steering wheel controls would be nice, Better control of the vents would be nice, But for the most part they got it right.
    Room for stuff - check
    Room for friends and family - check
    Easy ingress and egress - check
    Quite Smooth Confident ride - check
    Confidence inspiring traction - check - front wheel drive inherently has this advantage in the everyday mundane world.
    Enough horsepower to merge with traffic, climb a mountain pass or just go WEEEEEEEEEEEEE! - check
    Enough style that they still turn heads after 20 years - check

    Cadillac lost there way. They were probably run over by corporate dummies.
    There line up should have been.
    DTS - V8 powered only - Sedan - Only proven components - everyday Americans trying to get thru this life
    maybe a two door variant
    CTS - sporty group - the latest greatest cutting edge
    two door - four door - wagon
    Escalade - luxury truck/van thingy
    regular and extended maybe a two door variant.
    Then they could have focused on the details and really dialed them in.
    It is bad enough the GM badges fight each other now you have one badge fighting with itself.
    This thread is a fantastic debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post

    Please name one person that previously purchased a Fleetwood Brougham who now buys Mercedes. They aren't even the same category of car! The Fleetwood was a throwback to Cadillac's glory days, and the Mercedes (namely S-Class) is a high end German luxury sedan with style and tech to match.

    Not one car manufacturer makes a car like Fleetwood Brougham anymore. Not one.
    My parents went from the late 1970's with Dad in a 77 sedan deVille and mom in a 78 Coupe deVille and as they continued prospering in the 1980's Dad got a 85 mercedes 300td wagon and surprised my mom with a birthday gift 88 mercedes 420SEL, both cars driven until 2007 when they went Lexus and mom died in 2011 and dad has traded the lexus every 2 to 3 years since he is in his mid 80's. He loved the Cadillacs and Mercedes. The Lexus is an appliance to him that he appreciates but doesn't get excited about.

  14. #89
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post
    Please name one person that previously purchased a Fleetwood Brougham who now buys Mercedes. They aren't even the same category of car! The Fleetwood was a throwback to Cadillac's glory days, and the Mercedes (namely S-Class) is a high end German luxury sedan with style and tech to match.

    Not one car manufacturer makes a car like Fleetwood Brougham anymore. Not one.

    Ryan, long before you were born many of those who could afford it, and had previously owned Cadillacs, began buying Mercedes and Jaguars (not as much) instead of the Cadillac and Buick they had previously owned. This was a very common trend in the higher end neighborhoods of both the East and West coasts. What began as the choice of the few who liked the higher apparent quality and better handling of the German cars became a very real trend in the 1970's with the introduction of the 450S sedan and the 450SL models Mercedes. Mercedes and Jaguar cars of the fifties, sixties and seventies were priced very much closer, if not below, Cadillacs of those periods (exchange rates had not come into closer parity to the dollar yet).

    In the 1980's, with the advent of easy to afford leasing, Mercedes S class cars were to be seen all over Los Angeles in neighborhoods where they had been not previously seen (this was especially true in the Korean Town neighborhood where the residents couldn't yet afford to buy houses but could afford to show off their status by leasing a Mercedes). By this point a Cadillac had really only become a status symbol to middle class Americans living between the coasts.
    delerium75 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post

    Ah, no. Many of us are here because Cadillac and GM got their heads out of their posteriors and stopped making outdated, disconnected boats.

    I want a comfortable car that is roomy enough for passengers and stuff(like track tires) and buttoned down and fast as heck.

    Every generation of CTS has been more advanced, the ATS is the best handling sports sedan and the XTS is selling well. Escalades make a ton of money. As does the SRX.

    Cadillac is worlds better than they were a decade ago.

    Deal.
    If that is the entirety of the sales pitch no wonder the cars are hard to move. The "styling" of these cars is an acquired taste and is doubly hard to swallow on the ATS with its bubble butt and the XTS with its pug nose and the mixed in microwaved ten year old Avalon details. Then the CTS and those old time Las Vegas daytime running lights and copy of a Hyundai that copied a Mercedes styling. So, it is hard to take you or these cars seriously.
    amunderdog and CaddyGas like this.

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