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Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD! in General Discussion; Everybody has a different idea on what Cadillac should be in this thread. The time for them to build large, ...
  1. #61
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Everybody has a different idea on what Cadillac should be in this thread. The time for them to build large, obnoxious boats is over. Nobody does that even more, including Lincoln. If Cadillac wants to ever be taken seriously, they have to be competitive and those old FWD barges and Fleetwood Broughams were not competitive to the Germans at all. They were, in fact, laughed at by many people in the automotive world who thought Cadillac was decades behind.

    This isn't the 1950's anymore, where Cadillac was held in the highest regard. Cadillac completely lost touch with their market and introduced some really crappy, unreliable cars. Then a little brand called Lexus came along and built higher quality cars that undercut the competition by thousands and the Germans penetrated the market with high quality, well designed machines and quickly Cadillac was the laughingstock in the luxury arena.

    I'm not saying Cadillac should chase BMW (because they shouldn't), but they shouldn't go back to building land yachts either for guys that are only going to buy them used anyways.
    CTSCHICK likes this.

  2. #62
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    It doesn't have to be a land yacht, even though one should be in the line up, and God forbid any are fwd, I wish they didn't make any. If they made the Ciel not a hybrid, with a v8, I'll buy that new, I know that isn't happening. Haven't made my mind up on the Elmiraj, which is not good.



    Even if I believe buying a car new is a terrible decision because of the depreciation value.

  3. #63
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    I find funny the robotic response to anyone who dislikes the current Cadillac model line as idiots who would prefer these models all replaced with an exact replica of a tubby mid 90's Cadillac Fleetwood. I am guessing this seems to be all some can imagine if Cadillac were to stop chasing the germans, japanese, and now koreans because what else is there? That's the point. Cadillac shows us year after year what a sad position the once great brand that had led the way from its inception, lost its way three plus decades ago, and even with that great passage of time since is still a one to two step behind slavish follower.

    What is it with the seemingly universal opinion that german and asian cars are unbeatable? And so many in this thread pin the hopes of Cadillac to a nearly good enough clone of the s-class ...but it will really be better because it will have a big grille and vertical taillights! Pant pant pant... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    Cadillac has to actually come up with the next generation of the luxury car in order to dominate the industry. That's a tall order plus not politically correct these days.

  4. #64
    ben.gators is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro-Ham View Post
    I find funny the robotic response to anyone who dislikes the current Cadillac model line as idiots who would prefer these models all replaced with an exact replica of a tubby mid 90's Cadillac Fleetwood. I am guessing this seems to be all some can imagine if Cadillac were to stop chasing the germans, japanese, and now koreans because what else is there? That's the point. Cadillac shows us year after year what a sad position the once great brand that had led the way from its inception, lost its way three plus decades ago, and even with that great passage of time since is still a one to two step behind slavish follower.

    What is it with the seemingly universal opinion that german and asian cars are unbeatable? And so many in this thread pin the hopes of Cadillac to a nearly good enough clone of the s-class ...but it will really be better because it will have a big grille and vertical taillights! Pant pant pant... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

    Cadillac has to actually come up with the next generation of the luxury car in order to dominate the industry. That's a tall order plus not politically correct these days.
    I am not sure this post is towards me (because I was the one who started to talk about Cadillac Fleetwood) or not. But either way, I 100% agree with your previous post especially this part "When Cadillac gets the confidence and initiative to build truly great and unique American cars, in whatever form they can imagine that to be, I predict a sales renaissance for the brand we all would like to cheer for! Cadillac, get with it and lead the way!." And therefore I don't understand why you are upset! There is no contradiction between my post and yours, actually somehow they say the same thing. Modern, new, updated cars and a brand image based on Today's needs! And I don't think that a floaty Cadillac is what we need today.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben.gators View Post

    I am not sure this post is towards me (because I was the one who started to talk about Cadillac Fleetwood) or not. But either way, I 100% agree with your previous post especially this part "When Cadillac gets the confidence and initiative to build truly great and unique American cars, in whatever form they can imagine that to be, I predict a sales renaissance for the brand we all would like to cheer for! Cadillac, get with it and lead the way!." And therefore I don't understand why you are upset! There is no contradiction between my post and yours, actually somehow they say the same thing. Modern, new, updated cars and a brand image based on Today's needs! And I don't think that a floaty Cadillac is what we need today.
    If I were upset I would have typed in all capitals and called you names.

    By the way, the best selling Lexus models float as much or more than a mid 90's Fleetwood.

  6. #66
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    FWIW, I think the new CTS is a very elegant design. But, I also think it's overpriced for what it offers. The ATS is also a decent car for it's type, but again, it's severely overpriced for what it offers. The XTS....well, Momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing.

    Let's talk about the Cadillac everyone's been ignoring in this thread: the Escalade, specifically, the Escalade ESV. It's big. It's bold. People who have the means desire them. Yeah, it's a tarted up Suburban, but buyers don't seem to mind. They just want a large vehicle with all the comforts and toys that makes a strong visual statement. They're the kind of buyer who would have bought a Fleetwood back when, and the Escalade ESV is the closest thing to the old Fleetwood sedans Cadillac still builds. Now, I have no earthly use or desire for a truck, but if Cadillac could channel the attitude and style that the Escalade ESV reflects into a full-sized, RWD, V8-powered sedan and coupe with contemporary styling, priced in accordance with reality, I really think that would do the trick.

  7. #67
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV View Post
    Let's talk about the Cadillac everyone's been ignoring in this thread: the Escalade, specifically, the Escalade ESV. It's big. It's bold. People who have the means desire them. Yeah, it's a tarted up Suburban, but buyers don't seem to mind. They just want a large vehicle with all the comforts and toys that makes a strong visual statement. They're the kind of buyer who would have bought a Fleetwood back when, and the Escalade ESV is the closest thing to the old Fleetwood sedans Cadillac still builds. Now, I have no earthly use or desire for a truck, but if Cadillac could channel the attitude and style that the Escalade ESV reflects into a full-sized, RWD, V8-powered sedan and coupe with contemporary styling, priced in accordance with reality, I really think that would do the trick.
    This is a very good point. Happy that you brought this up. Escalade is considered a symbol of status and because of that it is doing very well and sells very well even though it has an outrageous price tag. The interesting part is that some Cadillac lovers dislike this truck/pickup/SUV because it is not what Cadillac used to built back in old days and therefore it is against the heritage of the brand. This shows that progressive ideas can pay off. And I totally agree that a sedan with the same prestige, can be (and will be) successful.

    As Sal mentioned before this Sedan is going to have a price tag of 80k+. I am going to be more conservative and say including incentives it will be 70k+. If you convert the MSRP of your eldo when it was new into its equivalent in today's dollars, it should be close to 70k. What do you think about this price tag? Also you called ATS and CTS overpriced. I like to know in your opinion what the price tag of an ATS (or CTS) should be?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro-Ham View Post

    By the way, the best selling Lexus models float as much or more than a mid 90's Fleetwood.
    Why should we argue when we have access to the real sales figures!

    http://lexusenthusiast.com/2014/01/0...-sales-totals/

    In 2013, Lexus sold 273,847 cars and trucks, 72,581 of which are ES models and 10,727 are LS models. The rest are sports cars (IS, GS,...), or trucks and hatchbacks. I am going to assume by best selling, floaty Lexus you were referring to ES and LS. I haven't driven the latest version of ES and LS, so I am going to accept they are as floaty as Fleetwood. That being said, sales figures of ES and LS are less 30% of Lexus' total ales numbers; something around 82k cars. That says something about the size of market for floaty cars. In addition to this, Lexus itself is working hard to show a sporty image of itself. The background of their website, as of today 4th of July 2014, is a F performance. In exhibitions, they normally put F performance cars on top of the podium. It seems that Lexus doesn't want this floaty car image too.

  8. #68
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    The ES and LS do not float. I've driven both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 77CDV View Post
    FWIW, I think the new CTS is a very elegant design. But, I also think it's overpriced for what it offers. The ATS is also a decent car for it's type, but again, it's severely overpriced for what it offers. The XTS....well, Momma always said, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing.

    Let's talk about the Cadillac everyone's been ignoring in this thread: the Escalade, specifically, the Escalade ESV. It's big. It's bold. People who have the means desire them. Yeah, it's a tarted up Suburban, but buyers don't seem to mind. They just want a large vehicle with all the comforts and toys that makes a strong visual statement. They're the kind of buyer who would have bought a Fleetwood back when, and the Escalade ESV is the closest thing to the old Fleetwood sedans Cadillac still builds. Now, I have no earthly use or desire for a truck, but if Cadillac could channel the attitude and style that the Escalade ESV reflects into a full-sized, RWD, V8-powered sedan and coupe with contemporary styling, priced in accordance with reality, I really think that would do the trick.
    Totally disagree. I don't see suburban soccer moms driving around in Fleetwoods. Maybe a small percentage of the urban population would've driven both. But few who drive the Escalade now drove those Fleetwoods.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben.gators View Post

    ...I am going to assume by best selling, floaty Lexus you were referring to ES and LS...
    More assumptions. And now wishful spin.

    The Lexus/float comment I made was tongue in cheek and also correct.

    But Cadillac needs to look much more ahead than at how successful Lexus is now at selling their vehicles based on a magic carpet ride, which was a previous Cadillac hallmark by the way.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro-Ham View Post

    If I were upset I would have typed in all capitals and called you names.

    By the way, the best selling Lexus models float as much or more than a mid 90's Fleetwood.
    Since you stated the Lexus models float, then you have no need to complain. Because the XTS is a floatier version of an ES.

    That's it. All you old school lovers can end your complaining now. Buy an XTS and shut up...
    gdwriter likes this.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post

    Since you stated the Lexus models float, then you have no need to complain. Because the XTS is a floatier version of an ES.

    That's it. All you old school lovers can end your complaining now. Buy an XTS and shut up...
    Well, you certainly have all the answers and it sounds like you are always right so I would guess the Cadillac sales numbers will improve by the end of the day and we should all take the day off and do some cocktailing! Hooray!

  12. #72
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    People spend too much time complaining on forums instead of going out and driving.

  13. #73
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro-Ham View Post
    More assumptions. And now wishful spin.

    The Lexus/float comment I made was tongue in cheek and also correct.
    OK, I am going to stop assuming and ask you please enlighten us about best selling Lexus models that float.

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    Since you stated the Lexus models float, then you have no need to complain. Because the XTS is a floatier version of an ES.

    That's it. All you old school lovers can end your complaining now. Buy an XTS and shut up...
    Both are FWD.
    Both have V-6.
    Both are quiet with perfect noise insulation.
    Both are kinda boring to drive.
    Both are almost the same size.
    Both are roomy.
    Both have really smooth ride.
    Both are luxurious.

    Yeap, XTS is Cadillac's version of ES! That leaves Lexus with the LS; a RWD car with a V-8 engine, which sells about 10k units a year.

    I am not even sure that why we are arguing about Lexus. But what I can say is that a good portion of complains about Cadillac's current line up are just complain.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    People spend too much time complaining on forums instead of going out and driving.
    You guys are so in the tank for the current Cadillacs that it wouldn't matter what anyone else thinks.

    Perhaps government motors could find a sympathetic ear and an executive order to force all luxury cars sold in this country to be Cadillacs.

  15. #75
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    Re: Cadillac Sales Down by 2.3%...with the ATS and XTS down by over 20%...NOT GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryannel2003 View Post
    ]

    This isn't the 1950's anymore, where Cadillac was held in the highest regard. Cadillac completely lost touch with their market and introduced some really crappy, unreliable cars. Then a little brand called Lexus came along and built higher quality cars that undercut the competition by thousands and the Germans penetrated the market with high quality, well designed machines and quickly Cadillac was the laughingstock in the luxury arena.
    Which as a poor man, I bought a 1992 Lexus SC300, with a clutch pedal. I owned both a 1991 Brougham and 1995 Fleetwood, both based on that old body on frame chassis. At my price point, ie under $20,000, I would never consider a Cadillac, except for those old RWD sleds that were basically a Cadillac body/interior on a Chevrolet chassis/powetrain.

    IMO the main downfall of Cadillac for the past 20 years has been the quailty/engineering behind their cars. Granted they might have been fantastic in the warranty period, but the expense to maintain a FWD Northstar car has completely ruined the brand for an entire generation of buyers who picked up a 5 to 15 year old low mile Deville, Seville, or Eldorado.

    Go buy a similar mile, similar condition Lexus, it costs you about 1/4th of what a Cadilllac would cost you to run. I really wanted a 94ish to 2002 Eldorado with the Northstar, until I read about what it costs to run one. Decided to buy a Lexus SC, considering it costs about the same as a Corolla or Camry to run, disregarding the crappy gas mileage.

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