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Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood in General Discussion; Originally Posted by N0DIH They needed to take a % of the profits of the trucks/SUV's and put it into ...
  1. #91
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH View Post
    They needed to take a % of the profits of the trucks/SUV's and put it into modernizing the engines even more. Sure, the Gen III truck/car engines made great power, they didn't see fit that the REST if GM would see it. The 5.3L Grand Prix GXP was too late and wrong wheel drive. If they would have made the GP RWD and V8/rear drive they would have seen FLOCKS of people jump on the GM bandwagon.

    GM HAS to forget the idea that "oh we can't do that, it might distrub sales from xxx brand", a sale is a sale, if GM gets it or Ford or Toyota or Audi or .... A sale is a sale. When they make cars people don't want, or focus on crap sloppy front wheel drive platforms soley. Do the sell, yes, are the what people wANT, no.
    V8 RWD Grand Prix...you mean like that G8 they made that really didn't get much attention outside of a few short magazine articles? Where were the "flocks"?

    From what I'm gathering from this post, it sounds like you are trying to say that GM would be making money hand over fist if they ceased the focus on Camry and Corolla warriors and began focusing on catering to select V8 RWD enthusiasts. How so?

    The fact of that matter is that for any business to survive, it's imperative that it produces a product that it can sell. While they aren't the enthusiast you are, more often than not people do purchase cars as a functional piece of transportation. That's the main role of todays automobile - that IS what they want and are looking for. Horsepower and RWD are not necessarily sought out characteristics nor are they huge profit generators, therefore they can't be top priorities. It's absolutely important that the company caters to the profit generating customers. Look at the hit that the 2008+ FWD Malibu was. I'm sure it generated loads more profit than the G8 ever did.

    In all, I don't understand why there is all of the commentary about how GM "needs to stop making crappy FWD's". Look outside the box of your enthusiast realm. Those "crappy FWD's" are a popular, and many times sought out choice among customers (75% of this "enthusiast" board drives and are happy with them), and it's important that GM remains competitive with them. GM builds a number of RWD enthusiast-oriented cars, including one of the best values in that market, the Corvette. It's available for anyone to purchase.

  2. #92
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Aron9000 View Post
    GM, Chyrlser, and to a lesser extent Ford were really short sighted on the need to build competitive smaller cars. Their whole empire was propped up on building full size trucks and suv's, their corporate cost structure was so out of whack that those were the only things they could make a profit on. Really cheap gas in the 90's kept the domestic industry afloat another 10-15 years. Did they use that time to get their cost structures in line and really improve their car offerings?? Nope, by the mid-late 00's when they were making real strides and building better cars it was too little too late.
    Since you seem to accept that high gas prices are OK then I can see how your argument makes sense to you. I do not approve of our underutilization of our resources so we can drive what everyone truly wants which are big, comfortable, and safe vehicles. Drill here, drill now - watch how much prosperity we will have!!!!! There is no reason not to!

  3. #93
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    I don't think high fuel prices have anything to do with that mindset. I think that's the way it would be even if fuel plummeted to $1/gal. As many members indicate, most of the todays population considers a car to be an appliance, a tool. That said, many customers are concerned with eliminating cost of transportation, and are willing to sacrifice size and confort for that. They would continue to do so no matter what the cost of fuel was.

    Lower fuel costs will not cause an offset with a desire for big comfortable cars - it just means many will be able to meet their goal easier and spend even less on transportation.

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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    V8 RWD Grand Prix...you mean like that G8 they made that really didn't get much attention outside of a few short magazine articles? Where were the "flocks"?

    From what I'm gathering from this post, it sounds like you are trying to say that GM would be making money hand over fist if they ceased the focus on Camry and Corolla warriors and began focusing on catering to select V8 RWD enthusiasts. How so?

    The fact of that matter is that for any business to survive, it's imperative that it produces a product that it can sell. While they aren't the enthusiast you are, more often than not people do purchase cars as a functional piece of transportation. That's the main role of todays automobile - that IS what they want and are looking for. Horsepower and RWD are not necessarily sought out characteristics nor are they huge profit generators, therefore they can't be top priorities. It's absolutely important that the company caters to the profit generating customers. Look at the hit that the 2008+ FWD Malibu was. I'm sure it generated loads more profit than the G8 ever did.

    In all, I don't understand why there is all of the commentary about how GM "needs to stop making crappy FWD's". Look outside the box of your enthusiast realm. Those "crappy FWD's" are a popular, and many times sought out choice among customers (75% of this "enthusiast" board drives and are happy with them), and it's important that GM remains competitive with them. GM builds a number of RWD enthusiast-oriented cars, including one of the best values in that market, the Corvette. It's available for anyone to purchase.
    Cheap gas is the answer for selling cars that people would actually want to own. Our current government would like everyone to view cars as ugly appliances like the Prius. I think cars are symbols of our freedom and they should be big, gas should be cheap, and then we will have freedom to choose to do our business as we like or need.

    The Pontiac G8 was sort of likeable for its big engine but it was hardly interesting other than that, like the GTO those Aussie cars are a bit too vanilla to be loved and enthused about.

    GM is trying hard to make interesting cars, after decades of mediocrity, I hope Cadillacs will once again be great.

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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Bro-Ham View Post
    Since you seem to accept that high gas prices are OK then I can see how your argument makes sense to you. I do not approve of our underutilization of our resources so we can drive what everyone truly wants which are big, comfortable, and safe vehicles. Drill here, drill now - watch how much prosperity we will have!!!!! There is no reason not to!
    I never said high gas prices are a good thing. They SUCK!!! Anyways, my point was the big 3 were/still are out of touch with what the market wants. Anybody with common sense could've seen that 9/11 was the end of cheap gas. If managment at GM, Ford and Chrysler had any brains about them they would've had a whole fleet of nice, competitive small cars ready by 2004 model year, 2005 at the latest.

    Not a Chevy Cobalt, Aveo, Dodge Caliber, or an ugly rebody of the old gen Ford Focus while Ford of Europe recieved a brand new car. Ford and GM seem to have it together now with the Cruse, Fiesta, and Focus, poor old Chrysler is still soildering on with their crappy Caliber and Jeep whatever its called that were junk the day they were introduced 4 years ago.

    EDIT: To get us back on topic of RWD/V8/big car, people can/do want something unique for their $30-50k. That's where you can sell RWD/V8/big car, its a luxury to have something different. I wouldn't buy a v6 FWD commuter car for that type of coin, I don't care how nicely appointed it is. At the same time the sucess of the BMW 3 series in that price range has everybody trying to imitate that sucess, aka RWD CTS, Lexus IS350, Audi A4(at least that's kind of different IMO), C-class Benz. Nobody has challenged Chrysler, and its sad because GM and Ford sell great RWD cars elsewhere in the world in that 30-50k price range.

  6. #96
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    I don't think high fuel prices have anything to do with that mindset. I think that's the way it would be even if fuel plummeted to $1/gal. As many members indicate, most of the todays population considers a car to be an appliance, a tool. That said, many customers are concerned with eliminating cost of transportation, and are willing to sacrifice size and confort for that. They would continue to do so no matter what the cost of fuel was.

    Lower fuel costs will not cause an offset with a desire for big comfortable cars - it just means many will be able to meet their goal easier and spend even less on transportation.

    I don't know about you guys, but if gas was $1 a gallon, I surely wouldn't be driving a midsized, FWD, V6 powered car. I'm personally in this car because I was sick of paying the gas bill for a V8. If gas were to ever drop down in that range again, and stay that way for the foreseeable future, I'd buy a car I really wanted, not one that made good economic sense (and still meeting all my other criteria).
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    I'd be back in a Navigator Ultimate. I miss that truck.

  8. #98
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    #richbrownpeoplesnotreallyaproblem
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    In all, I don't understand why there is all of the commentary about how GM "needs to stop making crappy FWD's". Look outside the box of your enthusiast realm. Those "crappy FWD's" are a popular, and many times sought out choice among customers (75% of this "enthusiast" board drives and are happy with them), and it's important that GM remains competitive with them. GM builds a number of RWD enthusiast-oriented cars, including one of the best values in that market, the Corvette. It's available for anyone to purchase.
    Yes and no.

    Pontiac was supposed to be somewhat of a performance brand. Cadillac was supposed to be a luxury brand.
    FWD is perceived by the market, regardless of whether its true, to be utilitarian, a compromise that favors fuel economy, value, cost, and weight, and brand credibility suffered for it.

    Cadillac made the transition to RWD. Pontiac died.


    Chevrolet and Buick, with their place in the market, are perfectly suited to front-drive value-oriented passenger cars.


    The Pontiac G8 had a lot going for it, but exchange rates (since it was an import) forced MSRPs to be much higher than originally intended.

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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Yeah! I mean wasn't the G8 GT about $35-37,000 when new? If it would have been say.....$25-29,000, it would have been one of the best deals on the marketplace and sold much better.
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by I~LUV~Caddys8792 View Post
    Yeah! I mean wasn't the G8 GT about $35-37,000 when new? If it would have been say.....$25-29,000, it would have been one of the best deals on the marketplace and sold much better.
    I think the real problem was the Pontiac G8 monikier. Nobody today remembers Pontiac's glory days of the 60's and 70's, all they remember is that pos Grand Am, Sunbird, or Sunfire that they once owned. Or see white trailer trash driving around in one of those that is completely beat to hell. That car would've sold if it were marketed as "Impala SS".

  12. #102
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by I~LUV~Caddys8792 View Post
    I don't know about you guys, but if gas was $1 a gallon, I surely wouldn't be driving a midsized, FWD, V6 powered car. I'm personally in this car because I was sick of paying the gas bill for a V8. If gas were to ever drop down in that range again, and stay that way for the foreseeable future, I'd buy a car I really wanted, not one that made good economic sense (and still meeting all my other criteria).
    Generally, the true enthusiasts won't let that get in their way anyway. Numerous members here love to tell us about how they are going to continue to drive the vehicles they are in, regardless of fuel prices. It's nothing new. Enthusiasts (as well as the many Americans who refuse to live within their means) will continue to do as they please, no matter how much it costs.

    Same goes for the opposite end of the spectrum. There is no magical fuel price that will turn a happy Corolla driver into a gear rowing CTS-V driver. The Corolla driver is looking for a no frills vehicle to minimize transportation costs no matter what fuel prices are at. The Corolla driver just needs basic transportation that gets the job done whether fuel prices are $5 or $1. Because this is the mindset of the average modern day consumer, and because the Corolla excels at this, it continues to sell well. I have a had time believing that Corolla demand would drop if fuel prices went down.

  13. #103
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    ^^^ Obviously there were fuel price levels that converted big SUV drivers into drivers of more fuel efficient cars. If fuel prices dropped no telling what the next car fad would be!

  14. #104
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Obviously, it's an easy to read rule: when gas prices are low, people generally tend to buy larger cars. When gas prices are high, small cars gain small strides in popularity. Why else were SUV's so popular in the '90s, now hybrids are the popular item? Don't you remember reading the articles when gas was $4 a gallon? All sorts of dealers had a hard time moving trucks and SUV's, but were selling hybrids and compacts by the truckloads! I work at a Nissan/Kia dealer, and we do sell a few Armadas, but a SHIT LOAD of Altimas, Sentras, Optimas, Fortes, etc. Our best selling models are usually the crossovers, so people can still haul and tow some stuff, and have good winter tractability, but still get decent mileage.
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  15. #105
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    Re: How GM should have done the 94-96 Fleetwood

    Quote Originally Posted by I~LUV~Caddys8792 View Post
    ... Our best selling models are usually the crossovers, so people can still haul and tow some stuff, and have good winter tractability, but still get decent mileage.
    AMC FTW!!!!

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