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Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, Aside from Cadillacs? in General Discussion; BMW still has the market cornered on steering feel; I will say that. Maybe I'm just used to mine. I ...
  1. #46
    gdwriter's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    BMW still has the market cornered on steering feel; I will say that. Maybe I'm just used to mine.

    I haven't had any issue with straight-line stability. That car tracks like a freight train on the highway, one of the reasons I enjoy it so much on road trips. Didn't your Seville have some issues with the tires and shimmy? Mine had a slight shimmy at 70 MPH when I first got it, but as soon as I replaced the cheap-ass tires with Yokohamas, the problem went away.

  2. #47
    I~LUV~Caddys8792's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    The 98-04 Seville is pretty sporty. Not like a 3 Series, but a great combination of luxury/sport. I thought you liked these Sevilles Rick, weren't you looking at buying one a few years back?
    "They call Alabama the Crimson Tide, call me Deacon Blues."

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  3. #48
    ryannel2003's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    My Seville had cheap tires and worn struts and still handles the corners with aplomb. For a 4,000lb, FWD vehicle the car handles damn good. It's no BMW, but the Seville is one of the best driving Cadillac's I have personally ever driven... and I've driven at least every model of Cadillac (with exception of Cimarron) of the 25 years.

    The Seville STS was a great vehicle, and it still is. I love mine so much, I might just replace it with a low mileage '03 STS in a few years.

  4. #49
    hueterm's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Driving my ETC right after driving one of my wagons is still such a rush. There are much better handling cars than my ETC, but it meets my needs.
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  5. #50
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    I wouldnt mind a lifted 4 door wrangler. But BMW has always been in my mind as interesting, always seemed like a drivers car.

  6. #51
    Night Wolf's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by I~LUV~Caddys8792 View Post
    The 98-04 Seville is pretty sporty. Not like a 3 Series, but a great combination of luxury/sport. I thought you liked these Sevilles Rick, weren't you looking at buying one a few years back?
    Oh I still very much like the '98-'03 Seville, and the '92-'97 Seville, and the '92+ Eldo. They are among my favorite Cadillac's.

    Unlike Gary with his black or white statements on my view on the cars, or my Jeep, I am stating that the FWD Seville just dosen't offer what I am looking for in a "fun" car. You can put as much power as you want in it and as many fancy suspension gizmos as you see fit, it is still a large FWD luxury car, and worst of all, only avalible with an automatic.

    If I wanted a quiet, comforable techy daily driver, I would buy one. If I wanted a smooth and quiet ride for highway trips, I'd buy one. In fact they are still a car I am considering in the future.

    But to me, a FWD Seville has about the same thrill to me as a 7-seires, which atleast is driving the correct wheels and could be had with a manual, tho not in this country (later years). Then again, do you really buy a 7-series for the thrill of the drive?

    But Cadillac didn't market the Seville STS towards the 7-series, it was towards the 5-series, a solid "sport sedan" But they made two big mistakes, the engine is powering the wrong set of wheels, but more importantly, the serious lack of fun that putting a shifter into "drive" entails.

    To put it another way, the same way Gary feels about my Jeep being a horrible vehicle on his fun twisty roads is the same way I feel about an automatic luxury car on fun twisty roads.

    I'll go as far as to say *I* would personally take my Jeep over a Seville if I wanted to have fun on twisty roads. Would it accelerate faster and handle better? Hell no. But to me being as open to the enviornment around me as I can and shifting my own gears makes all the difference.

    Example, my Town Car with the Ride Control Package (and after I completely went thru and rebuilt/upgraded the suspension) handled very well for such a car.... it handled like no Town Car should It would take turns at 2-3x the caution speed signs and I pushed it hard. Could it hold it's own for it's category of cars? Yes.

    But it was also in that process that I realized how boring and uninvolving it was. With the windows up, it was quiet, with the windows down, I could hear the V8 slightly. I'd look at the digital speedo and see 85 or triple digits, yet it didn't mean much, I would try to make it more fun by pressing O/D off or shifting down to 2nd, but even then, it shifts when the computer wants, not when I want.

    Then I took my 120hp 3300lbs 4cyl Isuzu Amigo w/ 2" lift and 32" all-terrains out on the same road. Running flat out the Isuzu was struggling to reach 70, The handling was considerably not as good as the Lincoln and I was taking turns slower.... but still, with that 5spd manual transmission, it was so much fun to keep the (low rpm, torqey truck) engine in it's powerband to maximize all avalible power, to downshift going into turns, get on the throttle leaving shifts and upshifting etc....

    Is this a comparison using two vehicles that are horrible when it comes to handling? You bet. But it explains my point about how I feel. No matter how much power or improvements to the suspension I could throw at the Town Car, it would still offer the same experience to me, likewise the little Isuzu truck simply thrilled me to take it to the limits and just have fun. Best of all? I was having fun in the Isuzu all while having hardly any chance of getting a speeding ticket.

    I've taken the Jeep on the same roads, and I get the same thrill. Tires squeeling, pushing it hard.... if grandma in a Camry could keep up with me, I don't care, I'm having a blast.

    *edit* A video of what I mean, pushing the Jeep on the road, on my favorite local driving road. It was fun.

    [youtube]tGWL3_uDcNw[/youtube]

  7. #52
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    I mean, to each his own, and I'm glad you like and are as passionate about your vehicles as you are.....but you live in Georgia.....don't you get hot and dirty anytime you go anywhere in a Jeep w/o roof, doors, or windows?

    I realize, I'm about 180 degrees the other way, but I'll start something and let it cool off in the driveway before I go anywhere.....
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  8. #53
    Night Wolf's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdwriter View Post
    Gee, another long-ass dissertation from Rick. Quelle surprise. And as usual, full of opinion.
    Fixed it for ya

    Get a freakin' clue. We are not talking about an '82 DeVille with a 4100. Nor a '79 or '93 DeVille like you once owned (although I managed to find my '91 DeVille plenty entertaining). From 1992 on, the Seville, and especially the STS, were Cadillac's sport sedans. These are not rolling living rooms.

    I am plenty involved in the driving experience when I want to be, and I don't need a bloody clutch pedal to see/hear/feel what my car is doing. I enjoy a stick on occasion, and in some cars — like LS1Mike's Trans Am, a Miata, or my friend's Z3 — I consider it mandatory. I simply don't want one as a daily driver.
    For some people, a Toyota Camry offers them a perfect "luxury experience", Does it for you? Or do you set the bar higher and enjoy Cadillac's premium models?

    Likewise, your automatic Seville may be plenty involved for you, but for others they are not.

    Unless in rare (on/off road performance) occassions, without a bloody clutch, a vehicle is not involving. That dosen't mean it's bad, when I was in the market for my Town Car I specifically wanted a car that isolated the outside world from me when I shut the door, and that was a perfect car for such a task.

    I took the back road route to work this morning, which has some nice sweeping curves, along with a 1.5-mile stretch where you make six sharp turns, most of them ~90º. There was a car that had come charging up behind me right before this stretch, so I took the curves faster than usual, brake hard going in, accelerate halfway though and power out with the Northstar doing what it does so well. And guess what? When I plant my right foot, it downshifts and pulls hard.
    It's good to know that your automatic transmission works properly.

    It was a lot of fun — even involving to use your word — and the Seville handled it with aplomb. I'll wager that with your Jeep's high center of gravity, you couldn't take those turns anywhere near as fast as I did without tipping over.
    Damn, what gave it away? The Indy500-tuned solid front axle? The lift kit? the mud-terrain tires?

    To me, speed dosen't mean fun. I am not saying you car is bad at handling, nor am I saying my Jeep is good at handling.

    And if I kept my foot down, I would easily blow you away on the straights. Now that's fun.
    And if we were on rutted dirt roads I would easily blow you away on the straights. Now that's fun. Seriously, are you going as far as comparing the on-road handling and acceleration of a "sport sedan" to a modified off-road vehicle?

    Maybe you're assuming an '01 Seville has pinkie-twirling power steering with no feel like I suspect your '79 DeVille had. Newsflash: it doesn't. One reason I can take turns at speed and love some of the cloverleaf freeway on ramps we have around here is because I can feel what the front wheels are doing and make a smooth, precise turn. Hell, even Betty's power steering gives good feel, and I have fun taking her around turns, and I can even feel the difference RWD makes in when you can start accelerating out of a turn.
    When did my '79 DeVille come into this? There is more to steering then how easy or hard it is to turn the steering wheel. I can feel what the front wheels are doing in my Jeep, that dosen't make it handle any better or less then what it does.

    Here again, you show your ignorance. Despite its size, my Seville is hardly an isolated luxobarge. The ride is very comfortable, but it's reasonably firm and not at all floaty.
    Uh dude? Read my post again. I did not say, nor imply your Seville was an isolated luxobarge. In fact I said "I got tired of...." Which would imply I did not enjoy the vehicles I owned anymore. Don't worry, not everything I type is about you or your cars.

    And surprise, surprise, when the weather's nice, I enjoy driving with all the windows down, even at highway speeds. Did it going home one night last week, and it was quite refreshing
    Damn, and without never ending ear bleeding and exhaustion?

    I've made it very clear my Seville can be very involving and fun to drive. I've pointed it out before — with examples — and you still don't get it. Or refuse to see it. I at least acknowledge that your Jeep is fun for you; for me and the kind of driving I like to do, it would not be. I used to car pool on occasion with a friend who had a Wrangler. Rush hour traffic on Phoenix freeways, even in nice weather, was not particularly pleasant. I don't need to drive one to know that the high center of gravity that makes it so capable off road would limit it on my favorite winding back roads.
    You sound like I am trying to push you into a Jeep, that's not the case. You also don't have to continue to tell me that your Seville can in fact be very involving for you to drive - I get it from your continued, lengthy reports back to me on how fast you can take turns and how your automatic downshifts.

    I do acknowledge that your car is very involving for you. You seem to be inable to acknowledge the reasoning why such a car is not very involving to me.

    And my Seville does something your Jeep can't.
    My dad can beat up your dad!, My bike is cooler then yours!.... oh, you were being serious...

    Do you really want to compile a list of what each vehicle can do that the other can't? Really? Without going into detail, I'll simply say that some of the most beautiful places in the world around us are not accessible by paved road.

    When I've had an exhausting day at work, or I have an hour-and-a-half drive home from the airport after a long, tiring trip, I can effortlessly eat up the miles in complete comfort. In an open Jeep, I'd be miserable and arrive home even more exhausted. Maybe you wouldn't, but I would.
    Again, that is you and your opinion. I have yet to feel worn out or uncomfortable from driving my Jeep any time or distance. Including 12hr legs to/from New York and Key West.

    I look at the given situation (exhausting day at work) in the opposite way. As I walk out to my doorless Jeep in the parking lot, any stress from the day seems to disappear and as I drive back home in my fun, open vehicle, I go into "relax" mode.

    And for crying out loud, it's spelled "though," not "tho." This is not texting. It's three freakin' letters. Use them.
    4realz dogg


  9. #54
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Wolf View Post
    [youtube]tGWL3_uDcNw[/youtube]
    Good music choice

  10. #55
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    While I disagree that a fun car can only have a stick shift and be rear wheel drive, I would say that when it comes to small displacement and lighter weight cars a stick shift is the only way to have fun. Around town and on fairly tight twisties it is not the amount of horsepower or length of the wheel base or the number of driver aids that make a car fun, but rather the agility of the car to perform to a higher degree of it's ability in conditions that don't allow for the car's muscle and sophistication to be taken to its' full advantage.

    An example of this was when, back in the mid-sixties I was tooling up the Angeles Crest Highway in my 225 hp 2800 lb Jaguar XK150, one evening when a car behind was flashing to get by. It was a new, at the time, Lotus Elan roadster, a car that had maybe 90 hp and weighed perhaps 2100 lbs. As soon as the road permitted I pull to the right to give the Lotus room to pass. And then I tried to stay with him as we climbed our sinuous way up to Red Box. To make a story short I couldn't catch him. On the longer straightways I could cathup with him. but as soon we went into the switch backs no way could I keep up with the much more agile Lotus Elan.

    This is what I mean by light agile cars being more fun to drive in towns and tight twisty roads. The Miata is a great example of a fun car to drive around town, as is an Alfa Romeo spider, or an earlier smaller, lighter VW GTI. Non of these cars would be worth a damn with an automatic transmission. And non of them can compare with large big engined touring machines when you have many miles to cover and the roads are straight or the turns well banked. Incidentally, that is one of the reasons American and various European cars evolved diferently.

    Back in the 1960's and '70's if someone told you they would rather travel in or drive a Mercedes 280S sedan overr a Cadillac from New York to L.A. .... they were either highly delusional, on Mercedes P.R. payroll, or had no experience with American driving. Such great drivers as Sterling Moss and Phil Hill preferred automatic transmissions in their road cars (read GT cars in Europe and luxury American sedans in the U.S.). The preference for stick shift on big heavy sports sedans and GT cars is more an affectation of those that have not really experienced those cars in their true element .... especially with all the shifting aids currently available in high performance cars today.

  11. #56
    Night Wolf's Avatar
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Quote Originally Posted by hueterm View Post
    I mean, to each his own, and I'm glad you like and are as passionate about your vehicles as you are.....but you live in Georgia.....don't you get hot and dirty anytime you go anywhere in a Jeep w/o roof, doors, or windows?

    I realize, I'm about 180 degrees the other way, but I'll start something and let it cool off in the driveway before I go anywhere.....
    I've really gotten used to the heat as I've been out of NY (and in FL/GA) since '05. Going into work today it was 103 with a heat index of 115 (and high humidity)

    A Jeep is a vehicle that either fits your lifestyle or it dosen't. It fits mine, well.

    I work aircraft maintenace in a hanger and often work outside. In the warmer months the hanger doors are open, so with the exception of shade and covered from rain, the outside becomes inside. The hangers are heated in the winter, but the only A/C is in the break room and offices. So I do not work in an A/C enviornment. When I leave work in the Summer, my shirt is full of sweat.

    So when I get into my Jeep, I don't need A/C (unless sitting in traffic, which I'll run with no doors etc...) as there is plenty of air movement around me to stay cool.

    As for getting dirty when driving, what do you mean? Do you get dirty by driving with your windows down?

    For the Summer, my Jeep stays in this configuration:



    The duster cover ("bed" cover) keeps everything behind the front seats dry. The safari top (from windsheild to rear of Jeep) keeps me dry, and most of all, the sun from beating down on me, and the inside of the Jeep all day. If I am planning on a long road trip, I'll take the safari top off.

    When it rains, I usually just tumble the drivers seat forward, that keeps the seat dry from rain as well as water run off from the top, which just pours into the tub and then exits via the removed drainplugs on the floorboards.

    With me in the Jeep are also a pair of full soft doors and the wind jammer (part that goes behind the seats w/ rear window):



    That configuration makes my Jeep rather enclosed, stay dry, and it'll heat or cool the cabin to beyond comfortable levels either way.

    I can mix and match too, if it's raining hard and I am in town/city driving, I'll just throw the doors on and leave the wind jammer off, and no water comes in. If I am on the interstate and it is raining hard (as in down pour) I will put the wind jammer up (prevents water from spraying the inside of windsheild) but leave the doors off. If I maintain 55+mph, I stay dry in rainstorms that people put their hazzards on and pull off the road.

    It's definitly not for everyone. If you like the outdoors and enjoy being exposed to your enviornment, then there is a good chance you'll like it. Otherwise, probably not.

    Personally, for me, all the above and more makes the Jeep an incredibly "fun" and "involving" vehicle to me, no matter how slow or bad at handling it is compared to other vehicles.

    I sold the hardtop, I also have full steel doors w/ roll up windows and the factory soft top w/ tinted windows, I'll put those on for the "Winter" here, but otherwise I enjoy the way it is now.

  12. #57
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Interesting. Jeep definitely makes vehicles for enthusiasts. I doubt anybody has ever bought a Wrangler "just because". They're usually sought out because that's exactly what the buyer wants, and there's really nothing else like it on the market.

    I tell ya, I was over at the local Maserati/Bentley dealer the other night, and what do I see parked up front, so everyone driving by on the highway could see it? One of the cleanest, unmodified Grand Wagoneers I've ever seen in my life. It was gorgeous. That, to me, is the coolest Jeep ever made because it's got the 4x4 capabilities Jeeps are known for, with the luxury of a Cadillac, with the size, status and space most other SUV's didn't have back then, and it's a gorgeous throwback design, dating back to 1963. This is without a doubt, one of my all time favorite SUV's. Too bad they were underpowered and always got awful mileage.

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  13. #58
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    Its too bad the Land Rover Defender isnt sold here.

  14. #59
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    So Nightwolf, have you ever worried about the short wheel base and tipping? Any close calls that you could blame on the design of the wrangler? Thats another reason I like the four door wrangler. Just asking cause one will probably be in my near future, I just love all the options and assesories. Plus the "no doors, no top" thing is nice.

  15. #60
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    Re: Aside from Cadillacs?

    I just assumed that with no windows/roof, that you'd get hit w/a lot of dust while you're driving.

    I guess it's what you're used to -- it's hotter than hell here, and from what you said even hotter there.....I would *u** out the first time I drove it.
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