Timing nightmare!!!!!!
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  • 1 Post By Jaykeane
  • 1 Post By aussiejohn
The Classic Cadillac Forum Discussion, Timing nightmare!!!!!! in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; I have a 1967 Cadillac coupe Deville. It is supposed to have a 429 in it. I have checked the ...
  1. #1
    irishahole's Avatar
    irishahole is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    I have a 1967 Cadillac coupe Deville. It is supposed to have a 429 in it. I have checked the engine unit number on the back and it is the vin number of the car so they match. I drove the caddy into the garage and it was running perfectly. I was going to install a performance distributor from speedway in the car but it did not come with the oil pump lobe so I could not use it. I then went to put the stock one back in. I turned the motor over by hand until the number one piston was at tdc. dropped the distributor in at one o'clock position and proceeded with 18726543 firing order. I have done this before and never had an issue. I sounded like crap.... huge timing issue. I, not knowing what I have done wrong start checking everything. I cant think of what I have done. So as weird as this might sound I pulled the valve covers off and made eight little orange paper lobes and attached them to the intake valves. what I saw has me baffled . I set the rotor at number 1 clockwise turning by hand. After 1 is 4 then 3 then 2 then 8 then 6 then 7 then 5! 1.4.3.2.8.6.7.5. I asked my friend to double check as I turned it over and we verified this over and over. Now this is assuming that number one is front driver side, and the engine is a 429. the numbers match so it should be and this isn't the firing order for anything! Any smart caddy guys out there got any ideas? I could use the loss of this headache.

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  3. #2
    Jaykeane is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    Driver's Side is Left Bank Passenger side is right bank.
    Left bank is the odd bank 1,3,5,7
    Right bank is the even bank 2,4,6,8
    distributor rotation is clockwise.
    firing order is 18426543.

    A VERY common mistake is to be unaware that the crankshaft actually turns twice per every camshaft revolution. The timing marks align TWICE on TDC and on BDC (top and bottom dead center of no. 1)

    To make sure you're on the correct phase of things.. whip the plug out of no 1 cylinder and put your thumb over the hole.. and crank the engine over while watching the timing mark on the ballancer.. you should start to feel wind before the marks align.. keep cranking (by hand) until the mark is aligned. fire the distributor in and point the rotor just (counterclockwise of) no 1 as the distributor sinks into the hole it will mesh with the gear on the camshaft and the shaft / rotor will turn clockwise a tad (5^ or so).. If it does not go all the way in, or seems to get hung up before the distributor body bottoms out to the intake manifold, bump the engine over a tad.. this will align the oil pump drive accordingly.

    5^ BTDC / 30^ dwell..

    reply back with findings..

  4. #3
    MrEightball's Avatar
    MrEightball is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    I'm not sure about the 1967 429, but my 1970 500 has cylinder 1 in the front on the PASSENGER'S side. So make sure you aren't actually looking at cylinder #2. The intake manifold on my engine has the cylinder numbers cast into it (although I had to scrape a layer of crud off to see them). And my shop manual confirmed it.

    Also, I've done exactly what Jaykeane is talking about (even though I knew it aligned twice). I ended up putting my distributor in "backwards". Basically, it was firing the plugs on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke. However, when I did that, it did not "sound like crap" as you describe. It didn't sound like anything. It just turned over. Eventually, enough latent fuel was pumped in that it would catch on the exhaust cycle and blow fire up and out of the carburetor.

  5. #4
    CaddyGas's Avatar
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    Cylinder 1 is on the drivers side 1964-67, 68 it went to the passengers side. 1357 drivers side 2468 passengers side. 18726543. I would make sure your not on exhaust stroke like mentioned.

  6. #5
    irishahole's Avatar
    irishahole is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    I have done all of this( except the firing order with two fours) and today pulled out all the plugs and followed the cycle through. Piston one was driver front and so on. I checked the points and replaced already new wires. If the rotor is pointing to number one piston at tdc it cant be on exhaust stroke can it? Is it possible for a distributor drive gear to slip out of place or timing chain?

  7. #6
    CaddyGas's Avatar
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    If the rotor is pointing to number then usually no, it's not on exhaust. But when you pulled the dist, was it pointing to number one? The rotor can point any direction. What matters is, does the rotor point to number one on the cap? That is more important, the rotor has too point to #1 on the cap. To fire the wire.

  8. #7
    Jaykeane is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    I assume you rotated the engine for some reason after you removed the distributor.. or paid no attention to where the rotor was pointing when you originally removed the distributor or both.. no big deal..

    If you aligned the timing marks to TDC you were either on no 1 TDC or no 6 TDC.. so you had a 50-50 shot of getting it right..
    this is why we always spin the engine over with the distributor cap off to align the timing mark and the distributor at the same time.. this way, when we fire in a replacement distributor, we can be sure we're right, the first time..

    If the engine gets rotated without the distributor installed... we get lost.. the crankshaft rotates 2x per camshaft revolution (cam gear is twice the diameter).

    To get found, once lost.. the best thing to do is remove the no one plug and put your thumb over the hole while someone cranks the engine.. you'll hear and feel a puff when the cylinder is on the compression stroke.. when the timing marks align again.. (puffing all the way) you're on no1 TDC (top dead center)..

    you can also watch valve action if the valve covers are off.. but this procedure of 'fingering' is more precise, and faster..

    if your rotor is pointing to no1, while the engine is on the compression stroke of no 6 (TDC) we (techs) commonly refer to this as being 180^ out..

    The engine won't run if you're 180^ out.. but will pop and bang and almost seem like it wants to run if you're adjusting the distributor with reckless abandon.. it may even run.. but certainly not well
    CADforce69 likes this.

  9. #8
    aussiejohn is online now Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Timing nightmare!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by irishahole View Post
    d. After 1 is 4 then 3 then 2 then 8 then 6 then 7 then 5! 1.4.3.2.8.6.7.5. I asked my friend to double check as I turned it over and we verified this over and over. Now this is assuming that number one is front driver side, and the engine is a 429. the numbers match so it should be and this isn't the firing order for anything!
    irish, I am new to this site and am sure that you have corrected the problem by now, but thought that I'd throw in my two cent's worth based on many years of tinkering with V8s, mainly Holdens, but later with Chevs. The "firing order" you quoted of 14328675 is IMPOSSIBLE. All modern V8s with a dual plane crankshaft fire their cylinders in a set order so that the firing forces balance each other out and provide the driver with a smooth running engine. First the "outer" four cylinders fire and then the "inner" four. Outer four, inner four, outer four, inner four, etc. They all do it. Ford, Chrysler, Holden, Chev, even the Cads. Therefore the "firing order" you quoted is impossible, as you are suggesting that it fires an outer cylinder, then inner, inner, outer, outer, inner, outer, inner. The Chev small and big block use a FO of 18436572, which seems to disprove my assertion, but if you look at the firing order this way, 72184365, you will see that I am right. The Cad's 18726543 is the same, it fires the front left, right rear, left rear, right front and then the four inner ones. The Chev fires the left rear, right front, left front, right rear and then the inner four.

    I'm not trying to be a smart-arse, just passing on something I've learned that I have NEVER seen written in any car magazine I've read. And I've been subscribing to Hot Rod, Super Stock and Drag Illustrated, Corvette Fever, Vette for over three decades.

    Regards from Down Under.

    aussiejohn
    CADforce69 likes this.

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