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Cadillac XTS Forum Discussion, Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle in Current Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Originally Posted by DTS man33 It's funny how all the media calls this car a flagship when GM does not ...
  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTS man33
    It's funny how all the media calls this car a flagship when GM does not even call it that. As far as platform sharing I think many people got spoiled by the Sigma platform and the Northstar engine which was just for Cadillac at least at the start for the Northstar till they decided to put them in Pontiacs and Buicks. That is why the Omega platform will be just for Cadillac like the Sigma is/was. And from what I read they are working on a V8 and I bet that will be all Cadillac too. Platform sharing has been going on forever the problem is the spoiled public demands so much more. I have 1970's Motor Trends that do not even mention or care about the fact that a Fleetwood shared its platform with a 98 or Electra. It's so assinine that every comment about the XTS mentions the Lacrosse as its platform mate. Who cares! I am not a fan of the XTS but it sure as hell has nothing to do with it having a platform that is shared with a Buick.

    Also there has always been GM haters its just worst now do to the hole bailout thing. The XTS will do just fine in sales. When the flagship comes out that will only help the sales of the lesser cars even more. I agree that Cadillac will need to do more in terms of features and options at least when it comes to the flagship. There better be at least a 5 to 10 options/features that will not be avalible on any other Caddy. Super Cruise comes to mind. In my opinion this feature should only be considerd for the flagship and no other Cadillac. You can buy a ATS with just about every option as a XTS. Not to mention all the interiors look too similer. The spy pic of the new 2014 CTS looks almost the same as the XTS. While the XTS looks great on the inside they all look the same. To me that just does not jive so I hope Cadillac changes things up alittle with the flagship in 2015 or 16.
    The media has always been anti GM in my opinion. Much because it represented a mega powerful US corporation but I must say overall press has been much better since the government rescue and new products. Partially because of the fact that the media is liberal and Obama turned out to be a fantastic cheerleader for Detroit. Most importantly
    However is the products coming from GM have been fantastic ! Every now and again we have to put up with some idiot who writs an article like
    This. He probably drove his Toyota Camry rebadged Lexus ES to his office too !!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DTS man33
    It's funny how all the media calls this car a flagship when GM does not even call it that. As far as platform sharing I think many people got spoiled by the Sigma platform and the Northstar engine which was just for Cadillac at least at the start for the Northstar till they decided to put them in Pontiacs and Buicks. That is why the Omega platform will be just for Cadillac like the Sigma is/was. And from what I read they are working on a V8 and I bet that will be all Cadillac too. Platform sharing has been going on forever the problem is the spoiled public demands so much more. I have 1970's Motor Trends that do not even mention or care about the fact that a Fleetwood shared its platform with a 98 or Electra. It's so assinine that every comment about the XTS mentions the Lacrosse as its platform mate. Who cares! I am not a fan of the XTS but it sure as hell has nothing to do with it having a platform that is shared with a Buick.

    Also there has always been GM haters its just worst now do to the hole bailout thing. The XTS will do just fine in sales. When the flagship comes out that will only help the sales of the lesser cars even more. I agree that Cadillac will need to do more in terms of features and options at least when it comes to the flagship. There better be at least a 5 to 10 options/features that will not be avalible on any other Caddy. Super Cruise comes to mind. In my opinion this feature should only be considerd for the flagship and no other Cadillac. You can buy a ATS with just about every option as a XTS. Not to mention all the interiors look too similer. The spy pic of the new 2014 CTS looks almost the same as the XTS. While the XTS looks great on the inside they all look the same. To me that just does not jive so I hope Cadillac changes things up alittle with the flagship in 2015 or 16.
    I agree with your comment that people make too much about platform sharing. I don't really agree about the design similarities being a bad thing. Look at Lexus now. All of their cars have a similar design theme. Heck, I have to do a double take now to see the differences in an ES and GS. BMW and Mercedes are the same too.

    There is nothing wrong with perpetuating the design DNA. You just have to differentiate the content and driving dynamics to justify the move up in models.

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    XTS vs Mercedes E-Series/BMW 5-Series






    How does the XTS compare with the E-Series or 5-Series in terms of ride, performance, and durability? Is it competitive with these cars as Cadillac would like you to believe? From a maintenance perspective, I know the German cars are more expensive to deal with.

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    I am only speculating on this since I haven't done a formal comparison of features. I would imagine that the XTS is comparable from a features. Fit and finish remains to be seen. People would have laughed at that thought a few years ago, but I do feel Cadillac is catching up. We are beginning to shop for a potential replacement for my wife's 2004 Toyota Landcruiser. We're considering downsizing and have looked at the Mercedes ML350. Some may laugh at what I'm about to say, but the interior on my '12 CTS Premium Coupe does not seem out of it's league when compared to the interior of the ML. Now how they age remains to be seen. The XTS may even be a better value as you may get more for your money.

    From a reliability persective I think it's a toss-up as it's too early to tell. What is going in XTS' favor is that while it is a new car, it's built on a platform that has been out for a little while (Buick LaCrosse) and may not experience as much of the teething pains that the 2nd gen CTS experienced in '08 and '09. As for the Germans, while reliability is debatable, I think most will say that you may not want to own one once the warranty expires. Post warranty out of pocket repairs are very expensive, especially if perfromed by the dealer.

    From a driving dynamics perspective, I think the comparisons end. The BMW and Benz are RWD performance luxury cars while the XTS is a FWD based Luxury car that has sporty intentions. Getting an AWD XTS may help neutralize the FWD biased handling aspects of the XTS, but you can't completely eliminate the fact that the XTS starts out life as a FWD car.

    Having said all that, while the purists will continue to extoll the virtues of RWD for performance cars, and for the most part they are correct, the demographics of people buying these types of cars rarely thrash them through corners to truly wring out the performance where they would be able to exploit a RWD car's handling dynamics.

  5. #20
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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by DG2 View Post
    That was the worst review of the XTS I have seen. The article makes some very fair points but overall I think they were way off base. Having driven the XTS twice I just do not see how 304 hp is "underpowered ". I felt the acceleration of the XTS was in line with my Northstar V8 in my STS

    The Buick Lacross comments are fair and GM had to know they were going get bashed on that. Just wait till the Chevy Impala comes out.
    I have been a Caddy guy for a long time and finaly I was able to buy one as my daily car a few years ago. The V8 was a given. I recently drove an XTS and I don't mean just around a dealers lot. I thought it was a beautiful car and I liked the electronics and the interior is great. BUT, The six does not accelerate like my Northstar. It drives exactly like my wife's Lacrosse. The power does not flow until around 4 grand and up in the RPM department. Most of us drive in the area of 2500 to 3000 RPM and need power in that range. It needs a V8! Even a smaller one would do. I love my Deville and its Northstar and am going to keep it awhile longer and hope GM will add a V8 option to the XTS in time for me. A Buick with roughly the same creature comforts is a lot less money and that is a consideration. I've lived over 66 years without the CUE, and for the lower cost may continue to do so. Cadillac is about haveing what you want in a car because you want it and because lesser cars don't have it. I want a V8!

  6. #21
    RicktheRealtor is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    Ditto. Back in the day, a Cadillac was a Cadillac. It was distinctive, and it was known for it's power and unique motors (not counting the dreadful 80's).
    Now, GM, in it's infinite wisdom, uses the same powertrain in it's "full' size Cadillac, as in Terrains, Impalas, Equinox, LaCrosses, et al. Like we won't notice.
    I'm not saying it's a bad car, i just feel cheated somehow. I'm not prepared to shell out 60 large for this car. Blame CAFE, high gas prices, whomever. But I think the marketing boys are missing their target audience by throwing some gee whiz gadgets on a car with a V6, and sticking a Cadillac badge on it. Opinioms?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicktheRealtor
    Ditto. Back in the day, a Cadillac was a Cadillac. It was distinctive, and it was known for it's power and unique motors (not counting the dreadful 80's).
    Now, GM, in it's infinite wisdom, uses the same powertrain in it's "full' size Cadillac, as in Terrains, Impalas, Equinox, LaCrosses, et al. Like we won't notice.
    I'm not saying it's a bad car, i just feel cheated somehow. I'm not prepared to shell out 60 large for this car. Blame CAFE, high gas prices, whomever. But I think the marketing boys are missing their target audience by throwing some gee whiz gadgets on a car with a V6, and sticking a Cadillac badge on it. Opinioms?
    I think they are doing it to increase the audience demographics. While there are very focal voice of prior owners who wanted the V8 it's not the buyer Cadillac needs to grow there market share. I think they are ready to shed that aging and shrinking demo of older Caddy buyers. There trying for a slice off the 40-55 year old Lexus, Benz, BMW luxury owners pie all of which sell more cars than Cadillac. Caddy's brand and buyers are dying off and the number have shown it over the last two decades. So if new styling and tech brings in a younger new buyer with a cross platform economical V6 that just smart business. I personally think the car has enough power even for LA notorious freeway traffic and decent mpg for it's size. I really can't understand the need for 400 horse with 75 mile an hour speed limit anyway. It's not like you every need all that power and if I want speed like that there are much better option out there. I'm sorry it just doesn't sway me this argument that this car is missing something by not having a V8 engine. And if you really like the Lacrosse better than this car I'd say buy a Toyota Avalon that's the best Buick every built.

  8. #23
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    I literally just returned a 2012 Lacrosse to National rental I'm still at airport. Had the Lacrosse here in California on a 5 day business trip and can tell you as an owner of a 320 hp V8 STS and 400hp Escalade that the V6 in that Lacrosse was VERY powerful and accelerated possibly better then my Northstar. If I purchased the XTS I would be more then pleased with this power plant.

    I also was blown away with how nice this Buick drives and all my clients commented the same. Hence. XTS even better

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    Thanks for the positive comments. Always reassuring to hear. Not having driven an XTS (tho I've sat in them), perhaps I shouldn't flap my big yap about the lack of power, and the lack of a V8 (and prestige). No doubt the 30 somethings are fine with it. We 50 somethings will be the last to accept the inevitable. (I'm sure GM knows this, and as Longslim mentioned in the above post, it comes down to good business sense. How do we make profit? How do we keep expenses down? The hell with a dying breed; let's go after the youth.)
    Again I repeat, not a bad car. Just think how awesome it would be with a V8.

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    I think the point the writer was trying to make, albeit awkwardly, is that the XTS does meet the demands of the traditional big Cadillac buyers, who tend to be older and better off financially (regardless of what certain politicians are trying to foist on the public), than say a 30 something who is buying a base CTS to make an impression. The high tech features, and added cost, in the XTS are indeed turning off a lot of older buyers unless they have an iPhone and iPad, or similar smart gadgets they can really use. I think that is why Cadillac has changed the Driver Assist package from standard in the Platinum to optional in both the Premium and Platinum mid-stream. Cadillac is playing catch up with the high tech features and is getting bit in the rear. Knobs and dials are not high tech, but that's what most well-off buyers want.

  11. #26
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    I for one somewhat agree with the article. However i dont think it really was supposed to be caddys flagship vehicle. I just think its the only large(er) sedan they have right now. When you think about it maybe the cts-v is caddys flagship sedan.
    I think that the xts is very nice. But cars have come a long way since 2005-2006. The xts is quieter, the interior materials are better, the lighting is spectacular, brembo brakes, 18"s, ect. This is all to be expected for 2012. I think the article is leaning towards pointing out how can caddy, of all car companies, not have a large v8 rear drive sedan

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0 lsc View Post
    I for one somewhat agree with the article. However i dont think it really was supposed to be caddys flagship vehicle. I just think its the only large(er) sedan they have right now. When you think about it maybe the cts-v is caddys flagship sedan.
    I think that the xts is very nice. But cars have come a long way since 2005-2006. The xts is quieter, the interior materials are better, the lighting is spectacular, brembo brakes, 18"s, ect. This is all to be expected for 2012. I think the article is leaning towards pointing out how can caddy, of all car companies, not have a large v8 rear drive sedan
    And that's the rub do they need it now? I think they want to sell a big V8 but how many unit and at what cost for profitably? Looking at the numbers that I can find BMW was the leader in luxury high end cars. There 7 series sold around 18,00 units, Lexus sold 11,334? LS460 in 09, MB's sold under 2,500 CLS in 2010. Even Buick sold more car 177k+ with a 14.3% increase yoy. Mean while Cadillac sells grew by just 3% YOY with 152k unit. They can't afford the mega yacht yet. They have to grow sales numbers first. Time will tell if it's the ATS and XTS models. But they couldn't start with a big V8 high price car. I can see a real V8 twin turbo 80k car form caddy for prestige in the future possible the 2015 model whatever it is called. By that time they will know it will sell a few thousand units. But that's alright by then the brand will be stable and hopefully starting to grow for the long haul. I think Cadillac can be in the top three with the right mix of cars for young and old east and west coast drivers. Here on the west coast young professional will not even consider a Caddy it's a 3 series BMW OR C class Benz or A4 that is all they want. Why because all there peers have one and that's what drives sales and Caddy hasn't played in that park for a long time.

  13. #28
    DTS man33 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by longslim View Post
    I think they are doing it to increase the audience demographics. While there are very focal voice of prior owners who wanted the V8 it's not the buyer Cadillac needs to grow there market share. I think they are ready to shed that aging and shrinking demo of older Caddy buyers. There trying for a slice off the 40-55 year old Lexus, Benz, BMW luxury owners pie all of which sell more cars than Cadillac. Caddy's brand and buyers are dying off and the number have shown it over the last two decades. So if new styling and tech brings in a younger new buyer with a cross platform economical V6 that just smart business. I personally think the car has enough power even for LA notorious freeway traffic and decent mpg for it's size. I really can't understand the need for 400 horse with 75 mile an hour speed limit anyway. It's not like you every need all that power and if I want speed like that there are much better option out there. I'm sorry it just doesn't sway me this argument that this car is missing something by not having a V8 engine. And if you really like the Lacrosse better than this car I'd say buy a Toyota Avalon that's the best Buick every built.
    The bottom line is when Cadillac first started talking about the XTS everyone thought it was going to be the new top notch flagship. I think even Cadillac was going that direction for awhile. But then somwhere between 2009 and 2011 the decision was made that this car was simply going to be a stop-gap for the real flagship. Not only that but Cadillac can keep all the livery clients happy by having the XTS around. I have already have seen pics of what a limo and hurst XTS will look like. Now if this was a true flagship you would not see these cars getting turned into limos and such.

    Where I am going with this is Cadillac made the right choice by making the XTS. They are saving the V8 for the true flagship(LTS?). They did not wanna over do it with this car and spend any further cash on new engines and features when they have a range topper on tap that will have all this. As far as the demographics of buyers is concerned I say BS to that. Even though what you are saying is %100 true, there are plenty of buyers that are under 60 years old that still want a big huge luxo car that can be had with a V8. Even the argument of the old Caddy buyers dying off seems assine. People are living longer and longer and these people can still buy a luxo car. Why would you alienate all that business for a chance to win over BMW and MB buyers. That's why you have the CTS, ATS etc. Just my opinion.

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    Quote Originally Posted by DTS man33 View Post
    As far as the demographics of buyers is concerned I say BS to that. Even though what you are saying is %100 true, there are plenty of buyers that are under 60 years old that still want a big huge luxo car that can be had with a V8.
    Correct but they are buying BMW 7's, CLS 550 or A8 and that market is not 100k of unit a year it closer to 10k's car sold a year. And as I said they need big number now not a small slice of the top of the line pie. It's easier to cannibalize sells volume in the mid tier luxury market than the top. You see and immediate increase in your market share and value to the brand.
    Quote Originally Posted by DTS man33
    Even the argument of the old Caddy buyers dying off seems assine. People are living longer and longer and these people can still buy a luxo car. Why would you alienate all that business for a chance to win over BMW and MB buyers.
    See what Lexus did circa 1995 with the ES model, now it's the top selling entry level luxury car. That is my point but first you must grow the ATS XTS. And then introduce your top of the line SUPER LUXURY V8 twin turbo $80-100k car.IMHO

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    Re: Another XTS article - States the XTS falls well short of being a flagship vehicle

    So what happens to the very young professionals who cant afford a 90k car and wants the middle range 45k-55k car with a v8? leave Cadillac?

    ----------

    DTS
    Calendar Year Total sales
    2005 23,322
    2006 58,224
    2007 51,469
    2008 30,479
    2009 17,330
    2010 18,640
    2011 11,589

    STS
    Calendar Year Total sales
    2004 9,484
    2005 33,497
    2006 25,676
    2007 20,873
    2008 14,790
    2009 6,037
    2010 4,473
    2011 3,338

    ----------

    COMBINED SALES

    Calendar Year Total sales
    2005 56,819
    2006 83,900
    2007 72,342
    2008 45,269
    2009 23,367
    2010 23,113
    2011 14,927

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