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Cadillac XLR-V Series Forum Discussion, RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V in Cadillac V-Series Forums; Lets try again http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1...n/viewall.html...
  1. #136
    deadringer's Avatar
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Lets try again

    http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1...n/viewall.html

  2. #137
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Quote Originally Posted by deadringer View Post
    I wonder if you're maybe leaving lots of power on the table that you're not getting... according to this article:

    http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1...n/viewall.html

    The northstar engines can hit a 8500rpm redline with just a simple valve spring change... and these guys at Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators seem to know what they're doing - perhaps you should give them a call and see what your LC3 motor can really do... most of the tuners I've spoken with seem to be LS tuners who just are using the same tricks on the Northstar, whereas CHRF looks like they specialize in Northstar.

    http://www.chrfab.com/

    Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by deadringer View Post
    I talked to CHRFab several times over the years when I was working on the motor of my Eldorado to reach "V" status. The article makes it sound simple, bolt-on parts and go, but its not. Everyone knows and they (CHRFab) readily admit it, too, that its easy to get high HP out of a NorthStar - just not in a Cadillac. No one has figured out how to manage a built NorthStar with the Cadillac computers. From what I remember, 600+ is about all you can manage with the Cadillac PCM and that was drastically and later fatally modified PCM and engine. I'm sure the technology is available now, to go bigger and better. All it costs is time and money - neither of which I wish to invest to the degree necessary.

    Since I'm only looking for 550-575RWHP, I decided to see if I could get there without NOS or changes to the internals. NOS would cost me what little trunk space there is with the top down. I have a list of what I'd need done should I have to rebuild the motor (I'll add the CHRFab springs tonight) and the total cost for the entire overhaul is somewhere around $8.5K and three months with no guarantee the PCM can tame it. I'm pretty close to my goal now and its been much, much cheaper than a purpose-built motor. My PCM reprogramming is currently adequate, but I know there are a couple parameters I need to expand further.

    Lastly, over the 500-550TQ threshold, the tranny becomes the weak link. And above 550TQ, its a toss-up between the tranny and the rear end. Modding them to take that kind of abuse is in the $3500-6500 range; again with no guarantee the Cadillac computers will cooperate with the changes.

    ELWOOD has always been an experiment to see if I can surpass the base Z06 in power without removing the motor or tranny, i.e., original internals and bolt on adders sans NOS. It had to maintain the same ride and comfort, cockpit and trunk space, and match the Z06 in gas mileage.
    Snake Bit Super Chilled Black Raven 2006 Cadillac XLR-V aka Elwood (Jake's brother)
    Verified 501rwhp and 486TQ at 6000RPM so far...final goal 575/550

    ELWOOD - "Corvette in a Tuxedo ... with a Jet Pack"



    2013 St Louis Region SCCA Solo SSM Class Champion
    Texas Mile Record Holder: Street Legal XLR @ 165.6MPH
    ECTA LSR Record Holder: 4.2-5.0L Blown Gas Modified Sports Car

  3. #138
    deadringer's Avatar
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    I'm in no way of advocating adding NOS - I generally don't like anything I constantly have to fiddle with to work right (is the bottle full? is the bottle valve open? blah blah)

    But getting the engine to rev another 1500rpm could add a lot more boost... and it seems like a mod you could do with the motor still in the car (similar effort to a cam swap in a traditional LS motor). I would think it would be just a simple head removal and a little bench work to swap the springs - maybe a full day of work?

    As for the engine computer - the LC3 uses an E67 computer which is the same computer thats in the ZR1 (LS9) and the CTS-V (LSA) - there doesn't seem to be much difficulty in getting E67 to do what they need to do... I've been using EFIlive to tune mine and I can't imagine what you couldn't adjust... i've been messing with everything from fuel to even the cam timings. The older northstars used a unique computer, but I haven't heard any issues with the E67... Do you know what limitations they're running into?

    I don't have any desire for the numbers that you're putting out on your XLR-V but if I were, I would be visiting CHRF to see what they can really do... sometimes you end up running into the right guy and magic happens... there's a post in their forums talking about how they are coming out with a whole bunch of bolt-on's for the VVT-based northstar motors so it looks like they've made some progress at least in the past few months.

    I don't disagree with you regarding the trans and diff - the diff busts out in corvettes all the time so thats not news... as for the 6L80e, with some massaging of the torque-management and TCC lockups I think you could get it to last a long while

    Well - regardless, I thought it was worth noodling on.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by deadringer View Post
    But getting the engine to rev another 1500rpm could add a lot more boost... and it seems like a mod you could do with the motor still in the car (similar effort to a cam swap in a traditional LS motor). I would think it would be just a simple head removal and a little bench work to swap the springs - maybe a full day of work?
    Looks like it may not be that hard - apparently you can change the springs with the head still on the block... the service manual calls for tool "J 44211 On-Vehicle Valve Spring Compressor"

    Code:
    Kent-Moore Tools
    Kent-Moore J-44211 Valve Spring Compressor
    
    For General Motors. The new 4.0/4.6 Premium V8 Engines have valve springs which
     are recessed  in the cylinder head.  Standard valve spring compressing tools will not  work. 
     
    J-44211 mounts directly to the cylinder head and will service  four valves in a single mounting position.
    I'm not saying that *I* would be willing to do it, but it would seem to save a lot of labor if you could just pop the valve covers and just go at it... the procedure looks pretty straight forward in the service manual...

    just a thought...

  4. #139
    GizmoQ's Avatar
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Good bye Florida.



    On my way to W4M within the week. We'll tune the Meth and take advantage of the chiller.
    Snake Bit Super Chilled Black Raven 2006 Cadillac XLR-V aka Elwood (Jake's brother)
    Verified 501rwhp and 486TQ at 6000RPM so far...final goal 575/550

    ELWOOD - "Corvette in a Tuxedo ... with a Jet Pack"



    2013 St Louis Region SCCA Solo SSM Class Champion
    Texas Mile Record Holder: Street Legal XLR @ 165.6MPH
    ECTA LSR Record Holder: 4.2-5.0L Blown Gas Modified Sports Car

  5. #140
    coati's Avatar
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Elwood is looking good!

    Have a great road trip and keep us posted on how the tuning goes.

  6. #141
    TimmyC is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Quote Originally Posted by deadringer View Post
    I'm in no way of advocating adding NOS - I generally don't like anything I constantly have to fiddle with to work right (is the bottle full? is the bottle valve open? blah blah)

    But getting the engine to rev another 1500rpm could add a lot more boost... and it seems like a mod you could do with the motor still in the car (similar effort to a cam swap in a traditional LS motor). I would think it would be just a simple head removal and a little bench work to swap the springs - maybe a full day of work?

    As for the engine computer - the LC3 uses an E67 computer which is the same computer thats in the ZR1 (LS9) and the CTS-V (LSA) - there doesn't seem to be much difficulty in getting E67 to do what they need to do... I've been using EFIlive to tune mine and I can't imagine what you couldn't adjust... i've been messing with everything from fuel to even the cam timings. The older northstars used a unique computer, but I haven't heard any issues with the E67... Do you know what limitations they're running into?

    I don't have any desire for the numbers that you're putting out on your XLR-V but if I were, I would be visiting CHRF to see what they can really do... sometimes you end up running into the right guy and magic happens... there's a post in their forums talking about how they are coming out with a whole bunch of bolt-on's for the VVT-based northstar motors so it looks like they've made some progress at least in the past few months.

    I don't disagree with you regarding the trans and diff - the diff busts out in corvettes all the time so thats not news... as for the 6L80e, with some massaging of the torque-management and TCC lockups I think you could get it to last a long while

    Well - regardless, I thought it was worth noodling on.

    ----------



    Looks like it may not be that hard - apparently you can change the springs with the head still on the block... the service manual calls for tool "J 44211 On-Vehicle Valve Spring Compressor"

    Code:
    Kent-Moore Tools
    Kent-Moore J-44211 Valve Spring Compressor
    
    For General Motors. The new 4.0/4.6 Premium V8 Engines have valve springs which
     are recessed  in the cylinder head.  Standard valve spring compressing tools will not  work. 
     
    J-44211 mounts directly to the cylinder head and will service  four valves in a single mounting position.
    I'm not saying that *I* would be willing to do it, but it would seem to save a lot of labor if you could just pop the valve covers and just go at it... the procedure looks pretty straight forward in the service manual...

    just a thought...
    Adding RPM to a motor with a supercharger that is already spinning much faster than stock is not going to increase power output. His current 7000rpm is already past the power peak of the engine. If anything boost will decrease as the engine outruns the capacity of the blower.

    CHR might have some experience with camshafts on these but I'm not sure how much they have done with the RWD motors.

    I agree that the E67 will work great at the power levels Giz has in mind. Mine worked fine at 575/621 when I had the turbo on it. The transmission didn't hold up but the computer and rear end were ok.

  7. #142
    deadringer's Avatar
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyC View Post
    Adding RPM to a motor with a supercharger that is already spinning much faster than stock is not going to increase power output. His current 7000rpm is already past the power peak of the engine. If anything boost will decrease as the engine outruns the capacity of the blower..
    Is that really true? In the ECM calibrations the VVT has a max rpm default setting of 6800rpm (or somehting like that) and slams back to 0deg before 7k rpm or above... that could be one reason why you see it drop off in power beyond 7k. It would be worth checking to making sure that isn't an issue.

    Also - even if the power drops off a bit beyond 7k, you could still get remarkable 0-60 times since you could stay in 1st the entire way up to 65mph (assuming you haven't changed the rear diff ratio).

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyC View Post
    CHR might have some experience with camshafts on these but I'm not sure how much they have done with the RWD motors.
    From what I've read - they seem to be working on the RWD motors too - suggesting they may roll out some bolt-ons for the new motors... and they also say that there's actually very little difference between the FWD and the RWD engines other than VVT and some upgraded features (like they fixed the head blot threading).

    Quote Originally Posted by TimmyC View Post
    I agree that the E67 will work great at the power levels Giz has in mind. Mine worked fine at 575/621 when I had the turbo on it. The transmission didn't hold up but the computer and rear end were ok.
    There's probably going to be a lot more E67 hacking going on now with the ZL1 rolling out with the LSA motor as well... I doubt the ECM will ever be a problem for big power.

  8. #143
    TimmyC is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    More rpm is not the answer with a roots supercharger. Centrifugal yes, roots no. The roots upercharger just gets pushed even further out of its efficiency range. Power will drop to the point where it's advantageous to shift gears well before 8500rpm.

    Timing and rev limits are easy to tune. I am sure Giz's car has had that addressed.

  9. #144
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Well this year sucked! My car was in the shop almost 6 months, my mom passed away in April, I've been in and out of depression and basically became a hermit. Shop with my car finally gave it back to me incomplete in Sept and had the nerve to ask for more $ than we agreed *he lost that fight).

    Did a couple car shows and Corvette Funfest, but the most fun I've had in the last 2 years was last weekend at the Texas Mile. My little brother went with me as my Crew Chief and we tested out my latest mods: handmade catless headers, 3" X-Pipe midpipe to 3" Billy Boat Fusion exhaust, back to OEM pulley and tune.

    http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/twi...xas-1650666932

    With 1100 miles to get there, very little sleep from Thursday thru Sunday and another 1100 miles home, I think I'm almost recovered from my trip. Figured I better post up some pic and vids because


    Bottom line: it was an exciting weekend. Raced a bunch. Had some fun. Learned a lot. Still wanting more...

    I won't hold you in suspense about the final results. 165.6MPH was the speed of my first run... and my best. The winds came up Friday afternoon - a direct headwind, and the weather was unusually HOT. Over 90% of those of us able to run first thing Friday morning, none could top our individual speeds for that run.





    Conditions were great Friday morning and they sucked the rest of the weekend. Needless to say after seeing above videos - ELWOOD is LOUD now. Not much drone on the highway, twice as loud as stock at idle, but rattle your teeth LOUD at WOT! I love it. My XLR buddies say Elwood has anger management issues


    I made 10 passes down the runway. Five at over 160MPH. The first run on Saturday, I heard something pop so I got out of it and still managed to cross the line at over 150. The next run I forgot to engage "Performance Mode" so the 3/4 and 4/5 shifts were slow and the engine bogged down. My crew chief was so pissed, he told me for the next run "roll into the throttle smooth and fast to keep the tires from spinning, when you hear the shift from 2nd to 3rd, nail your foot to the floor, close your eyes and ears and just hold on!" - I ran 161.2MPH. If that had been the same conditions as Friday morning, it would have been well over 168. ​



    Sunday racers were going home so some of us got to hot-lap. I made 5 passes on Sunday and could have done 2 more, but the track conditions weren't getting any better and I did have to drive 1100 miles to get home so we called it a day by 4PM.



    This is what the grid looked like on Sunday morning *and this is with most of the racers packing up to go home).



    I still had a good time. The people at the Mile: drivers, mechanics, admin, and spectators made this a memorable trip. For the V owners and guests, Bachelor Cadillac and the Texas V Club setup a dining tent serving breakfast and lunch every day just like the Cadillac Corral at Mid-Ohio. I ran into lots of old friends from Texas and other LSR venues and made quite a few new friends. As usual, we raced all day and partied most of the night. I am now an official Texas V Club member. And got another invite to Bonneville. Lots of folks wanted to know about Elwood, even more were cheering me on to try and break 170. My cousin from Houston even came out on Saturday to be my cheerleader.




    Of course, every race is a learning experience. Where do I begin?

    1. Never run the car through the gears at WOT without engaging Performance mode. Performance mode keeps the tranny pressure maxed out and the revs up through the shifts so the car just keeps pulling like a freight train.

    2. The intake and exhaust need to be better matched. First my exhaust was the restriction, now the throttle body is the restriction. The motor breathes well, but to get more horsepower I need to increase the intake charge. I did test runs on Saturday with the exhaust fully open vs slightly closed and the boost level increased 2.2lbs with the exhaust partially closed. I guess I could leave it open and change the pulley, but that's going to require a retune.

    3. Street tires cost me at least 3MPH. Since I drove the car down, I didn't bring my racing wheels and tires. My street tires basically had no grip after each morning run. Burnouts didn't help. And the heat of the day just made it worse. Next time, I'll have my tires sent down in advance and change them Thursday night.

    4. The plastic push pins holding the front inner fenders can't handle this speed. The CTS-Vs had problems with their plastic undertray and inner fender wells at anything over 160 *four of them were damaged this weekend). Zip ties were the fix they used. I think I'll replace them with nuts and bolts. I also had to remove the plastic flap behind the upper grill and will have to design and install a replacement because it wasn't designed for my D3 intakes or the speeds.

    5. My methanol nozzles are too small. Using the meth only at WOT with the boost I'm generating is evaporating the meth before it gets into the cylinders costing me power.The jets I have are great for hooning around on the street, but for long WOT runs all it adds is a little cooling and no HP.

    6. I need to do some more aero tuning. At 160, fighting wind resistance is like trying to push through a brick wall. My lip splitter will help keep the nose down, but I've got to reduce the drag.

    So I didn't hit 170MPH... YET. A couple more horsepower, some aero tuning, and a decent set of racing tires and I think I got this. Probably won't get back to Texas for a while so I've set my sights on the Chicago Half Mile next year. Now to remove my headers and get them ceramic coated before the winter sets in. Looks like I have a few mods to do for the winter.

    What about the other cars present, you ask? Well, lets see if I can give you a brief recap. The record holding car at the mile is a wildly modified twin turbo GT-40.


    Guess what the record is *Hint: its plastered all over the car)? The car number maybe?

    I gotta do a shout out for the Texas V Club.

    All current and past Cadillac V Series cars were represented at the mile this time: CTS V1 &V2, XLR-V, as well as STS-V. I believe there were 18 of us racing and another 20-25 came to spectate. A great bunch of guys and gals.


    As a side note the Cadillac record was 200.9MPH, but ADM Performance brought a CTS-V Coupe that smashed that record with a 211.9MPH run on Sunday.


    Among the other racers, several more exotics showed up on Saturday as well as some unusual American iron. I was surprised to see three different McLarens in the grid, a couple Audi V10s, and the Porsches came out in force. OBTW, a spectator showed up in a BMW i8 Saturday afternoon and was amazing.

    Guy.Seminerio likes this.
    Snake Bit Super Chilled Black Raven 2006 Cadillac XLR-V aka Elwood (Jake's brother)
    Verified 501rwhp and 486TQ at 6000RPM so far...final goal 575/550

    ELWOOD - "Corvette in a Tuxedo ... with a Jet Pack"



    2013 St Louis Region SCCA Solo SSM Class Champion
    Texas Mile Record Holder: Street Legal XLR @ 165.6MPH
    ECTA LSR Record Holder: 4.2-5.0L Blown Gas Modified Sports Car

  10. #145
    rbzstsv is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Nice video! I love the name also! What kind of power are you making now? Must feel pretty good having one of the baddest xlr-v's on the planet. I hope to have my sts-v at the next Chicago half mile. Hope to see you there!

  11. #146
    mberisha is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Great vids!!!!

  12. #147
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    maybe look to drop the suspension a bit. I am not sure but I think the corvette parts will work on the xlr. <br>
    (suspension mods to help with the wind resistance problem.

  13. #148
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    Re: RATTLE Snake Bite the XLR-V

    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    maybe look to drop the suspension a bit. I am not sure but I think the corvette parts will work on the xlr. <br>
    (suspension mods to help with the wind resistance problem.
    I run ZR1/Z06 springs and sways at the lowest settings I can stand and the exhaust scrapes the ground at the slightest incline. Can't go down any further.

    I think there's a little more motor in there and I need to finish up my aero mods this winter so we'll see.
    Snake Bit Super Chilled Black Raven 2006 Cadillac XLR-V aka Elwood (Jake's brother)
    Verified 501rwhp and 486TQ at 6000RPM so far...final goal 575/550

    ELWOOD - "Corvette in a Tuxedo ... with a Jet Pack"



    2013 St Louis Region SCCA Solo SSM Class Champion
    Texas Mile Record Holder: Street Legal XLR @ 165.6MPH
    ECTA LSR Record Holder: 4.2-5.0L Blown Gas Modified Sports Car

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