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#1 ·
Hi, there
look what I found today at Road&Track!!!
The new STS V Supercharged 440 hp - that`s it!
 

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#102 ·
Not to sit hear and say I have all the enginering know how in the world, but I have really been enjoying the technical discussions that have been going on here. A lot more than just rag tops and chrome :) . When the STS was first introduced I loved it but questioned if it will it have the technical fan base like the BMW's, Audi's and Mercs. When you get one of those cars it's like joining a club (BMWCCA) and everyone helps everyone. I wondered if I could get support for the STS after purchase. After what's been going one here in the last couple of months I see I couldn't be more wrong. Hopefully when my new car purchase moment arrives < 1 year I will opt for the STS V8. Right now my decision is still up in the air with the 545i or 550i ahead by a nose.
 
#103 ·
Afreet1 said:
My complaint is the overall lack of displacement. I am sure that the specific output is a nice statistic but I am interested in TOTAL output and the upgrade potential of the engine. Couldn't you have 100Hp/liter if you had a 4 cylinder engine and only 1 total liter of displacement? Would it be impressive then? What about other nifty statistics such as if the compression ratio was only 6:1?

As for the supercharger, the Whipple is a screw-type supercharger and it DOES have a bypass valve. (http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1204)

I was waiting for the 2006 models to arrive before I made my V purchase (haven't decided on a CTS-V or STS-V), but if I can't get a NA engine with at least 400 HP like the 2004 and 2005 CTS-V, then I am going with something else and break a lifetime worth of GM loyalty UNLESS the supercharged version is very close to 500HP. (All my cars / truck have been GM so far)

I didn't mean to imply that you cannot put a bypass valve with a screw compressor...it just isn't that effective at reducing the parasitic losses as it is with a roots. The screw compressors will still compress and then relieve the air pressure thru the bypass. With the roots blower the rotors basically windmill freely. A roots blower with the belt off will windmill the rotors due to the air flow thru the engine...a screw compressor will not do that. That is why they still have high parasitics even with a bypass open. The whipple needs a by pass for boost control due to the fact that they are putting a very large screw compressor on the engines they kit for. They "size" them with the bypass. This is a very ineffient way to design a production engine... Whipple just says that their bypass is better than others...none of the bypasses on a screw compressor are really as effective as those on a roots.

Yes, the 100 HP can be considered "lame" in the sense that it is just a statistic I guess. You'll just have to drive an STS-V and see what 440 HP feels like with 90% of the torque available from 2200 to 6500 RPM. The torque band is so wide that it really makes the car fast. If the 100 HP per liter were measured at 8500 like the BMW V10 and the engine only made 350 ft lbs of torque and it had to be at 4000 or above to do that it is one thing. The Northstar SC makes 100 HP per liter at just over 6000 RPM and it ALSO makes 435 ftlb of torque and the torque curve is extremely flat and wide. That is what is required for a heavier luxury car...not a peaky high revving high output engine. The Northstar SC does both really.

Having said all that...no question...you cannot beat displacement.... wish the Northstar could be expanded in the displacement area. Practical limitations mean it cannot be larger than 4.6 liters.

BTW....the 440 HP rating is rather conservative. The rating is one of the first done by the new, more restrictive SAE J1349 guidelines. Rating according to the older standards could have resulted in an additional 15 HP or more....not that it would affect the performance of the car but it would have widened the gap from perceived output vs. the advertised number. The newer advertised HP rating standards that will be adopted by all the auto manufacturers as time goes on limits some of the "loop holes" that could be exploited to boost the advertised power figure.

In adddition, with the supercharged, intercooled package the HP is much less affected by underhood air temp as is commonly seen on chassis dyno testing. As long as the intercooler sees cold/cool/ambient air the charge temp will be controlled. The advertised power ratings are run with a relatively "hot" intercooler circuit temperature to simulate real world, hot, stabilized temperatures. Colder weather, intercooler spray bars, etc... will definitely add more power to the advertised number....
 
#104 ·
Afreet1,

Seems like you are more interested in having a hp number than an overall great handling and performing car at an "more affordable" price.

The new 6 speed auto will have a 4.02 1st gear which offers about 30% more torque multiplication than the current GM RWD 4 speed auto.
And about 15% more than the current 5 speed.

I am assuming the purpose of the smaller cylinders on the "V" Northstar is to give it a little more ability to handle the higher cylinder pressures.
Remember that Ford HAD to go to an iron block in the Cobra because they blew up too many aluminum 4.6L mod motors.
That decision added extra weight and hurt handling.

If Cadillac had gone to an iron block Northstar we would have ALL been crying bloody murder. And they would have deserved our criticism.
The 4.4L is an excellent solution because it has VVT and is probably more
powerful than a 4.6L without (Ford).(Mach1 excepted)

Wouldn't an increase in boost get you the 500hp you want in your STS-V?
I am sure the aftermarket will step up.
 
#105 ·
pietroraimondi said:
No for sure!....you are not the only one that is disappointed in the CTS-V. At least the STS-V is a true genuine proprietary Cadillac Northstar engine that has been reduced in size to a 4.4 Liter Northstar engine from its current 4.6 and then re-engineered to handle the additional HP of the supercharger to arrive at the base rated 440HP. The dyno slip for sure will tell the tale, but there is some comfort in knowing that in spending $75K f, I received a Cadillac Northstar Engine.

I sat on the fence for all of about 10 seconds when deciding NOT to buy the CTS-V versus the 3.6 VVT CTS and none of it was a cost factor. In fact the cost spread between my "off the lot" 3.6 versus the CTS-V was only about $6000 take or leave a few bucks. I have more $$ in my 3.6 with it's rebuild and the dyno slips to prove that my 3.6 will outperform the CTS-V on the dyno, as I have yet to see a CTS-V crack the 357 mark at even the flywheel, so I'm not quite sure where Cadillac has derived there 400 BHP rating from.

But truth be told, If I'm buying a damn Cadillac CTS-V, I expect a 400 HP Cadillac built engine. I don't expect to pay for a Cadillac and then have them "shoehorn" in a 5.7 liter pushrod Chevrolet engine and call it a damn Cadillac! Where in the hell is the truth in advertising there?

The bottom line is that the next generation of CTS-V's will find that Chevy 5.7 liter pushrod in the boneyard in favor of a better engineered Northstar engine with perhaps a 450+ BHP rating by 2007.

In my mind, the current 2004 CTS-V was nothing more than a CTS LUXURY SPORT, with some trim mods, and suspension modifications that were designed to support nothing more than a Chevrolet crate motor that Cadillac stuffed into the CTS engine bay simply because it fit because the market asked for more HP and quite frankly nothing else would fit the engine bay without extensive retooling and the marketplace clock was ticking.

It sort of reminds you of the first generation of Escalades. They too started of as GMC Yukon Denali's with a bit of Cadillac badge trim and gingerbread aesthetics to justify the MSRP price line. Two years later, the Escalade was a proprietary Cadillac engineered product from front tag to rear tag. The CTS-V will also follow the same suit with a Cadillac engineered Northstar Engine that will utilize the same supercharger system that will be installed in the STS-V as well as the XLR-V. The STS-V will be rated at 440 HP with a 4.4 liter Northstar in comparison to it's current 4.6 liter Northstar.

I would expect to see the new CTS-V to be rated somewhere between the 450+ and/or 475 with a genuine Northstar supercharged engine. When Cadillac does that; they'll have my attention as well as my check!

I realize that the above may sound like a bit if conjecture, however I have had some extensive discussions as part of a "marketing focus group" with Cadillac and the above statements concerning the new supercharged CTS-V will prove to be true. There is ongoing discussion as we speak with the "powers to be" at Cadillac about installing a tiptronic type sequential gear management transmission and move away from the standard 6 speed manual fits all thinking. The thinking is that at $55,000 and adding triptronic, you bring back into the buying fold all those that stayed away because they did't want a manual or in my case a Chevrolet engine stuffed into a Cadillac chassis!

Cadillac realizes that if they are going to build the true "American Ultimate Driving Machine" that fits form, function, luxury and satisfies the true American driving enthusiast; they need to be prepared to meet BMW "heads on" in both the product and the service experience.

They realize that they MUST install a triptronic SGM (SMG) manuamatic transmission in order for this CTS-V vehicle to be successful in catering to the BMW crowd.

They also realize that the current Cadillac Service Department model is still lacking miserably and is delivering a "Chevrolet service" experience. Over the next 3 to 4 years you will no longer see Cadillac dealerships sharing showroom floor space with other GM brands. The Cadillac Showroom and Service Dept will be standalone units.

This may sound silly, but as an example when I would take my BMW M3 in for service, I was greeted by a Service Advisor in a business suit. We would review the car and sit in his private office for a review of my scheduled service and any recommended services.

If I was going to work that day, there was a new BMW loaner waiting for me outside....not a single bit of paperwork to fill out as everything was on file.

If I was waiting for service, the waiting area rivaled that of a lobby/business center of a fine hotel. Free continental breakfast, capuccino & coffee machines, all of the major newspapers, various plasma screens for tv watching and at least a dozen cubicle desk stations with computers, internet access and a telephone. In some ways, I got more accomplished work wise at there then I would once I arrived at my office!

When I take my Cadillac in for service, (which I don't)....I'm greeted; rather looked at quite strangely is a better description, but a guy wearing a pair of blue coveralls who lacks the common sense to even put protective plastic covers over my sheepskin seat covers. It is quite a sight to be seen and from what I understand it is also a "countrywide problem".

I was asked by Cadillac Communication to join there focus marketing group as I had owned BMW's exclusively for the since 1985. Cadillac realizes first hand that they only have 3 years to fix the service department problem that they now face. They have done a wonderful job at engineering the overall vehicle, (exception noted on the 5.7 CTS-V) and in training the dealerships in how to sell the product. Service however was an afterthought and they are hearing first hand that the 30-40 something driving enthusiast expects his mechanic to know at least as much as I dwe about our vehicles, when in reality they are very lacking in product knowledge.

They laughed a bit at focus group web meeting when I made the analogy of that famous philospher, "Gomer Pyle", when I said; "fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me".

The point is that in order for Cadillac to bring us all back for the second CTS or STS.....they need to keep the "service experience promise"; and they have failed miserably in that arena. They are aware of it and are taking action as we speak. In fact, you will actually see some Cadillac Dealerships that will be closed by GM because they lack the physcial space for a first class service department to support the type of service that BMW & Mercedes customers are accustomed to.

When I would take by M3 to Towson BMW for service, I could purchase just about any type of Dinan performance upgrade and have it installed and not hear from some high-school garage mechanic that I was voiding my warranty. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've had to waste breath educating a mechanic that he knew as much about the warranty law as he knew about my car, so perhaps you may understand why I'm reluctant to go anywhere near the place for service and I live in a major metropolitan market!

If I could make a suggestion to anyone that owns a CTS....please buy the damn CTS parts list schematic that is on a CD/DVD and learn about your car. I'll say it again.....learn about your car, because chances are you'll be giving directions to the mechanic.

The current Cadillac mechanics are just that.....they are not "TECHICIANS". Ok...it's a silly damn fancy word for mechanic, but the bottom line is that the current Cadillac mechanics are used to working on your Aunt's Coupe DeVille and a Jeep Grand Cherokee and we both know that Aunt Rosie wouldn't know a harmonic balancer from a banjo and "you/we" do know the difference with regard to our cars as we are "enthusiasts". The current Cadillac mechanic is not prepared for that type of customer interaction and Cadillac Corporate is well aware.

The clock is ticking and they have a timeline of 36 months to get it right as these current vehicles begin coming in off-lease and or trade.

On a personal note, Cadillac revealed that there were alot of considerations that had to be encountered in bringing the CTS to market. Introductory price-point was the major one in comparison to the BMW 325/330 as they didn't want to bring to maket a new chassis/vehicle (CTS)that was competing head on with a vehicle that was "tops in class' for better than 10 years running at the same price point.

There "soft approach" to pricing and building the 3.2 in 2003 and then introducing the global 3.6 VVT in such a manner that it could handle 370+ HP in it's current configuration was a true trophy winner. With the 3.6 VVT engine, Cadillac avoided any future retooling costs as the 3.6 VVT is in all actuality a 4.0 six and the bore is reduced to 3.6 due to the steel cylinder sleeves. There is tons of room to grow this 3.6 platform and it will serve Cadillac well for at least 10 years.

Cadillac has done a fantastic job of "reinventing" themselves and their product line and attracting the BMW customer. The "Cadillac service experience" will define whether the "New Cadillac" customer keeps coming back.
Would you mind posting the mods you've done to your 3.6 to hit a dynoed 363hp? I'm assuming that's rear wheel.
 
#107 ·
Boy is this gonna be a fun shake-up when the next S8 arrives. Theres a reason the current S8 was featured in quite possibly the best movie chase scene ever... RONIN. Back in 01' when top HP ratings were just barely creeping up to 400 (M5), Audi was next in line with the 380HP S8, with an engine that could be easily pushed further. At that time the E55 had 349hp, the XJR was 370 and Cadillac's top offering was the 300hp STS with FWD.

Im excited to see whats coming down the pike. So far weve got a 440 horse Cadillac, a 500 horse BMW, and a 470 horse MB.... With the RS6 under its belt... Im eager to see what Audi-verken has to offer :D Its a great time to be a luxury sedan.

BTW... I cant agree with the comments about the CTS-V. It is exactly what every guy with a tool belt and a power screwdriver yearns for... a nice car with a big ol motor shoved in it! GRUNT!
 
#108 ·
Playdrv4me said:
Boy is this gonna be a fun shake-up when the next S8 arrives. Theres a reason the current S8 was featured in quite possibly the best movie chase scene ever... RONIN. Back in 01' when top HP ratings were just barely creeping up to 400 (M5), Audi was next in line with the 380HP S8, with an engine that could be easily pushed further. At that time the E55 had 349hp, the XJR was 370 and Cadillac's top offering was the 300hp STS with FWD.

Im excited to see whats coming down the pike. So far weve got a 440 horse Cadillac, a 500 horse BMW, and a 470 horse MB.... With the RS6 under its belt... Im eager to see what Audi-verken has to offer :D Its a great time to be a luxury sedan.

BTW... I cant agree with the comments about the CTS-V. It is exactly what every guy with a tool belt and a power screwdriver yearns for... a nice car with a big ol motor shoved in it! GRUNT!

I thought I was the only one that liked Ronin for the car chase....!!! The reverse 270 that the guys do in the Merc is an excellent stunt. Nice driving all the way thru that movie. Their "driver" was perfectly type-cast in my opinion...

One of the best stunts like that that I have ever seen in a movie was (surprisingly) in the Nutty Professor when Klump parallel "parks" the Viper between two other cars next to the curve by sliding it in sideways at speed. Bet the stunt driver chewed a hole in the drivers seat on that one...
 
#109 ·
Since we strayed into the movie topic for a minute I must say that I loved the movie Ronin and it does occupy a space in my DVD collection. I think it is only fair to mention the BMW Films collection of movies especially the film with the M5 and Madonna. :histeric: I also thought The Transporter was pretty good. I would like to see caddy do something with the STS or STS-V in the way of a small move to promote the car. Has anyone seen the Chevrolet Corvette commercial which was pulled from the air? From what I hear it was a great commercial in which GM spent a LOT of money on but they pulled it because some organization complained it promoted reckless driving because a pre-teen was supposed to be doing all the driving. They feared it would be duplicated. :cookoo:
 
#110 ·
Since there is movie talk going on I feel that the chase between an Escalade EXT and a CTS in the second Matrix was pretty sweet as well. Mainly because it featured two caddy's.

They had this at an event in Dayton for new Cadillac owners and one of the cars from the movie was there (post shooting). I'd show the pics, but I'm not sure how to insert them.
 
#111 ·
Heh... All great movie scenes for sure. I see Cadillac and GM vehicles in alot of Cameo roles, but infrequently in action scenes. Like for example, most if not all the cars in DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES, are Cadillac/GM products. One of the main guys drives an 05 STS.
 
#114 ·
Playdrv4me said:
BTW... I cant agree with the comments about the CTS-V. It is exactly what every guy with a tool belt and a power screwdriver yearns for... a nice car with a big ol motor shoved in it! GRUNT!
Here, here. As Tim Allen would say, "Ahr ahr ahr!" Or however you'd spell that.

The CTS-V isn't a sports sedan. It's the best f*cking muscle car that ever came out of Detroit; it just happens to be able to cruise well. I've driven old ones with more cachet, and lusted after others, but THIS one is quicker, faster, safer, and has lots of goodies that were mere sci-fi in the late 60's/early 70's.

The STS-V will be much too well engineered for me. Too quiet, too smooth, too easy to shift, etc. I put a Corsa exhaust on my CTS-V in part because I WANT it to be loud.

Different strokes for different folks. All my strokes are supercharged and pushrod-serviced. :D Me likee.
 
#115 ·
I must confess I was in love with that S8 in 2001 after watching Ronin. Despite the performance, glamor... and the pricetag of the Audi one has to remember that the FWD STS was no slouch back then (and Hollywood did recognize this too). In 2000 I vividly remember being suprised that an all black on black STS was used in a brief car chase in the movie Get Carter. Four years later I bought a 2000 STS which is exactly the same car as in that movie (so naturally I also had to buy Get Carter on dvd and add it to my collection). :2thumbs:
 
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