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Cadillac STS-V Series Forum Discussion, How About This ...the New Sts V in Cadillac V-Series Forums; Originally Posted by b4z I just saw that the STS-V weighs 4300lbs!! Dang. that thing got heavy, fast. The CTS-V ...
  1. #76
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Quote Originally Posted by b4z
    I just saw that the STS-V weighs 4300lbs!!

    Dang. that thing got heavy, fast.
    The CTS-V weighs 3850 and the STS_V is 450lbs more.
    All that performance stuff really puts the lbs on.
    Where is everyone seeing this 4300 number? Every time I see it I go into denial because it is so depressing. The E55 AMG doesn't even crack 4100 and I usual expect Benzes to be heavy. Less power, a LOT less torque, and significantly more weight. A lot less horsepower than an M5, a lot more torque, and significantly more weight. Whoopee doo. A let down considering it was hot on the trail of the CTS-V which blew everything away.

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    Exclamation Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    First let me preface with the fact that I have always stuck with the GM family and I seriously hope they can get Cadillac to #1

    That being said I also am very disappointed with the specs for the STS-V. Here we have a CTS-V with a stock 400HP NA engine with many different aftermarket speed parts available (and several supercharger companies with prototypes) pushing out near or above 500HP and showing even more impressive lap times.

    One naturally thinks that the STS is a "higher-end" Cadillac than the CTS and therefore should exceed all of the luxury and performance aspects of its predecessors. This is not a hard connection to make, nor would one expect the result to change with any of the V models.

    So on one hand we have a barn-burning CTS-V with a 0-60 of 4.7 seconds and a SCCA race car while on the other hand we have a maxed-out (or at least the perception of maxed out) undersized engine with a roots-type supercharger used in order to achieve the marginally greater horsepower needed to “on-paper” out-power the CTS-V.

    Under-hood mechanics aside, look at the two "benchmarks" that Cadillac is aiming for: the E55 and M5. The E55 is an automatic transmission car with 465HP (and 300 less lbs) that does so well in performance due to its amazing traction systems (or so I have read). From the BMW camp we have the M5 which is a performance car from the ground up with the newest technology including a F1 inspired 7 speed SMG transmission. The E55 and M5 are relatively well matched and offer room for passengers while remaining suitable as the "daily driver". The real selling point is that with all of the luxury and capacity they still have the ability to out-accelerate and out-perform most of the other cars on the road. Neither of these cars are designed as pure race cars but the owners like to have that capability available. We all dream of being the fastest and these are top-end models.

    Bottom line for me is that if I size up the E55 and M5 against the STS-V, I know I will be happy with the E55 or M5 since it satisfies my normal routine and my "weekend warrior" mentality without any sacrifices (except perhaps my wallet). With the STS-V I have no doubt that it would be a fun daily driver but I want the ability to at least beat a Subaru WRX STI or an Audi S4 and preferably go toe-to-toe with a M5 or E55.



    …and before anyone says it, Yes I know there is a price differential, but how much would it really cost to change the engine specs?

  3. #78
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    I only need to say one word, Northstar. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the Northstar is just plain out-gunned these days. It cannot, and WILL NOT be able to compete with the cars that Cadillac "claims" to want to compete with. I've said it MANY times, Cadillac NEEDS a new engine. The CTS-V owes 99% of it's credentials to the Chevy engine under the hood. Not only is it a powerhouse in stock trim but is EASILY able to accept a multitude of modifications that can boost the power significantly higher. This is NOT the case with the 4.6 Northstar. Even GM realizes the need to shore-up the Northstar before significant power increases as evidenced by the bore reduction on the S/C version of the engine which will be used in the STS-V. As far as the car itself, from what I've read, the car seems to be well engineered with respect to chassis tuning but until some serious full road tests come out on the car, I'll remain cautiously optimistic.

  4. #79
    b4z
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    I am not at all disappointed in the STS-V.
    It is not only the peak hp., but what is under the curve.
    I imagine that there is a boatload of torque at 1500 rpms w/ that roots type supercharger.
    Also I have heard that the new MB 7 speed transmission hunts for gear like crazy.
    Something a Turbohydramtic will not do.

    And you guys are forgetting that the 1st gear of the STS-V is a
    4.02!!!
    Think about that for a minute.
    The 2nd gear ratio is lower than the 1st gear of a Muncie M-22 4 speed.
    This car will have a huge amount of low end power and it's 0-60 times without traction control on will be interesting to say the least.
    Probably a smoke show.
    I am sure it will only be a couple of months before the aftermarket boosts the pressure of the supercharger.
    Lastly, I find it hard to believe that we are complaining about a car with ONLY 440 hp.

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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    The STS-V just finished several days of press reviews at the Detroit Auto Show with a very enthusiatic response. Interesting that all competitors to the STS-V were also in the "press" crowd. The 100 HP/liter specific output of the Northstar SC engine generated quite a bit of buzz in the crowd. That level of specific output is not lost on the competition.

    The STS-V will always stand for a more refined, more elegant vehicle than the CTS-V. It is going to be heavier as it is a bigger car, with more luxury and more features.

    Track times at the Nurburgring testing indicate that the STS-V is perfectly capable of competing with any of it's competitors.

    No question that you cannot beat cubic inches......

    The Northstar SC is rated at 440 HP at the standard SAE correction points...specifically 80 degrees F ambient. This is a very conservative rating as it is run with a hot vehicle intercooler condition...not ice water thru the intercooler. One nice thing about a supercharged engine with a very efficient liquid-to-air intercooler system is it's ability to maintain power at higher ambient temps (due to the intercooler efficiency) and it will pick up loads of power as the ambient decreases. With good fuel, cool (normal) ambients, etc...the 440 power rating is very conservative. As the ambients rise the engine becomes detonation limited and spark retard restricts the power output as the intercooler efficiency drops. Simple changes to the intercooler heat exchanger system..i..e...easy things like a spray bar on the intercooler heat exchanger....to keep the compressed mixture cool will dramatically affect power output...to the positive side.

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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Quote Originally Posted by Afreet1
    Under-hood mechanics aside, look at the two "benchmarks" that Cadillac is aiming for: the E55 and M5. The E55 is an automatic transmission car with 465HP (and 300 less lbs) that does so well in performance due to its amazing traction systems (or so I have read).
    The E55 also uses a 5spd automatic vs. the STS-Vs 6.

    Not to mention, the E55 is 6+ inches shorter in overall length than the STS-V.

    Don't be suprised if the STS-V can outhandle the E55, which is not one of its strong points.

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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Quote Originally Posted by b4z
    I am not at all disappointed in the STS-V.
    It is not only the peak hp., but what is under the curve.
    I imagine that there is a boatload of torque at 1500 rpms w/ that roots type supercharger.
    Also I have heard that the new MB 7 speed transmission hunts for gear like crazy.
    Something a Turbohydramtic will not do.

    And you guys are forgetting that the 1st gear of the STS-V is a
    4.02!!!
    Think about that for a minute.
    The 2nd gear ratio is lower than the 1st gear of a Muncie M-22 4 speed.
    This car will have a huge amount of low end power and it's 0-60 times without traction control on will be interesting to say the least.
    Probably a smoke show.
    I am sure it will only be a couple of months before the aftermarket boosts the pressure of the supercharger.
    Lastly, I find it hard to believe that we are complaining about a car with ONLY 440 hp.
    The STS-V has no torque advantage over the E55 whatsoever. 516 lb-ft. @ 2,650 - 4,500 rpm.

    The M5, on the other hand, is another story. 384 lb-ft @ 6100 rpm.
    Somehow, though, BMW always manages to squeeze out more performance than expected for a given amount of power.

    And I still haven't been informed about where the 4300lb number is coming from.

  8. #83
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    The E55 engine is big displacement but pretty disappointing output for a screw compressor on a high performance engine. For the cost and complexity of the screw compressor you would expect MUCH higher specific output...that is what screw compressors are good at. It makes high power and torque because it is getting some boost but it is not really a very elegant package due to the low specific output.

    The BMW makes HP with RPM. The torque is very low but with the high engine speed capability it does make HP. Trouble is you constantly have to wring the thing to get the power.

    With the Northstar SC one of the most endearing things about it is the fact that it has 90 percent of the peak torque value available from 2200 all the way to 6500 RPM.... It goes no matter what the RPM you are at. Very satisfying to drive.

    4300 is the published mass of the car.... That is what it weighs. The supercharger package adds mass what with all the hardware, the intercooler circuitry and intercooler heat exchanger. There are other extra coolers on the car to handle the trans, the power steering, the final drive unit, the engine coolant, etc...and all are sized for track work. Things like cross tower braces seem to not weigh much on their own but all those pieces add up. The interior appointments add mass. Little here...little there. There has been strict attention to the mass of the car as everyone understands that F=MA...but all the things required for a car like that add up....

  9. #84
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Quote Originally Posted by BUILDINGCTSAMG
    Am i the only one dissapointed by the 440hp? Considering how low the cts-vs are dynoing, and then you add in the wheel hop, 440 in real terms is more like 350....Maybe i was crazy to be thinking it should be in the 475 range
    No for sure!....you are not the only one that is disappointed in the CTS-V. At least the STS-V is a true genuine proprietary Cadillac Northstar engine that has been reduced in size to a 4.4 Liter Northstar engine from its current 4.6 and then re-engineered to handle the additional HP of the supercharger to arrive at the base rated 440HP. The dyno slip for sure will tell the tale, but there is some comfort in knowing that in spending $75K f, I received a Cadillac Northstar Engine.

    I sat on the fence for all of about 10 seconds when deciding NOT to buy the CTS-V versus the 3.6 VVT CTS and none of it was a cost factor. In fact the cost spread between my "off the lot" 3.6 versus the CTS-V was only about $6000 take or leave a few bucks. I have more $$ in my 3.6 with it's rebuild and the dyno slips to prove that my 3.6 will outperform the CTS-V on the dyno, as I have yet to see a CTS-V crack the 357 mark at even the flywheel, so I'm not quite sure where Cadillac has derived there 400 BHP rating from.

    But truth be told, If I'm buying a damn Cadillac CTS-V, I expect a 400 HP Cadillac built engine. I don't expect to pay for a Cadillac and then have them "shoehorn" in a 5.7 liter pushrod Chevrolet engine and call it a damn Cadillac! Where in the hell is the truth in advertising there?

    The bottom line is that the next generation of CTS-V's will find that Chevy 5.7 liter pushrod in the boneyard in favor of a better engineered Northstar engine with perhaps a 450+ BHP rating by 2007.

    In my mind, the current 2004 CTS-V was nothing more than a CTS LUXURY SPORT, with some trim mods, and suspension modifications that were designed to support nothing more than a Chevrolet crate motor that Cadillac stuffed into the CTS engine bay simply because it fit because the market asked for more HP and quite frankly nothing else would fit the engine bay without extensive retooling and the marketplace clock was ticking.

    It sort of reminds you of the first generation of Escalades. They too started of as GMC Yukon Denali's with a bit of Cadillac badge trim and gingerbread aesthetics to justify the MSRP price line. Two years later, the Escalade was a proprietary Cadillac engineered product from front tag to rear tag. The CTS-V will also follow the same suit with a Cadillac engineered Northstar Engine that will utilize the same supercharger system that will be installed in the STS-V as well as the XLR-V. The STS-V will be rated at 440 HP with a 4.4 liter Northstar in comparison to it's current 4.6 liter Northstar.

    I would expect to see the new CTS-V to be rated somewhere between the 450+ and/or 475 with a genuine Northstar supercharged engine. When Cadillac does that; they'll have my attention as well as my check!

    I realize that the above may sound like a bit if conjecture, however I have had some extensive discussions as part of a "marketing focus group" with Cadillac and the above statements concerning the new supercharged CTS-V will prove to be true. There is ongoing discussion as we speak with the "powers to be" at Cadillac about installing a tiptronic type sequential gear management transmission and move away from the standard 6 speed manual fits all thinking. The thinking is that at $55,000 and adding triptronic, you bring back into the buying fold all those that stayed away because they did't want a manual or in my case a Chevrolet engine stuffed into a Cadillac chassis!

    Cadillac realizes that if they are going to build the true "American Ultimate Driving Machine" that fits form, function, luxury and satisfies the true American driving enthusiast; they need to be prepared to meet BMW "heads on" in both the product and the service experience.

    They realize that they MUST install a triptronic SGM (SMG) manuamatic transmission in order for this CTS-V vehicle to be successful in catering to the BMW crowd.

    They also realize that the current Cadillac Service Department model is still lacking miserably and is delivering a "Chevrolet service" experience. Over the next 3 to 4 years you will no longer see Cadillac dealerships sharing showroom floor space with other GM brands. The Cadillac Showroom and Service Dept will be standalone units.

    This may sound silly, but as an example when I would take my BMW M3 in for service, I was greeted by a Service Advisor in a business suit. We would review the car and sit in his private office for a review of my scheduled service and any recommended services.

    If I was going to work that day, there was a new BMW loaner waiting for me outside....not a single bit of paperwork to fill out as everything was on file.

    If I was waiting for service, the waiting area rivaled that of a lobby/business center of a fine hotel. Free continental breakfast, capuccino & coffee machines, all of the major newspapers, various plasma screens for tv watching and at least a dozen cubicle desk stations with computers, internet access and a telephone. In some ways, I got more accomplished work wise at there then I would once I arrived at my office!

    When I take my Cadillac in for service, (which I don't)....I'm greeted; rather looked at quite strangely is a better description, but a guy wearing a pair of blue coveralls who lacks the common sense to even put protective plastic covers over my sheepskin seat covers. It is quite a sight to be seen and from what I understand it is also a "countrywide problem".

    I was asked by Cadillac Communication to join there focus marketing group as I had owned BMW's exclusively for the since 1985. Cadillac realizes first hand that they only have 3 years to fix the service department problem that they now face. They have done a wonderful job at engineering the overall vehicle, (exception noted on the 5.7 CTS-V) and in training the dealerships in how to sell the product. Service however was an afterthought and they are hearing first hand that the 30-40 something driving enthusiast expects his mechanic to know at least as much as I dwe about our vehicles, when in reality they are very lacking in product knowledge.

    They laughed a bit at focus group web meeting when I made the analogy of that famous philospher, "Gomer Pyle", when I said; "fool me once shame on you; fool me twice shame on me".

    The point is that in order for Cadillac to bring us all back for the second CTS or STS.....they need to keep the "service experience promise"; and they have failed miserably in that arena. They are aware of it and are taking action as we speak. In fact, you will actually see some Cadillac Dealerships that will be closed by GM because they lack the physcial space for a first class service department to support the type of service that BMW & Mercedes customers are accustomed to.

    When I would take by M3 to Towson BMW for service, I could purchase just about any type of Dinan performance upgrade and have it installed and not hear from some high-school garage mechanic that I was voiding my warranty. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've had to waste breath educating a mechanic that he knew as much about the warranty law as he knew about my car, so perhaps you may understand why I'm reluctant to go anywhere near the place for service and I live in a major metropolitan market!

    If I could make a suggestion to anyone that owns a CTS....please buy the damn CTS parts list schematic that is on a CD/DVD and learn about your car. I'll say it again.....learn about your car, because chances are you'll be giving directions to the mechanic.

    The current Cadillac mechanics are just that.....they are not "TECHICIANS". Ok...it's a silly damn fancy word for mechanic, but the bottom line is that the current Cadillac mechanics are used to working on your Aunt's Coupe DeVille and a Jeep Grand Cherokee and we both know that Aunt Rosie wouldn't know a harmonic balancer from a banjo and "you/we" do know the difference with regard to our cars as we are "enthusiasts". The current Cadillac mechanic is not prepared for that type of customer interaction and Cadillac Corporate is well aware.

    The clock is ticking and they have a timeline of 36 months to get it right as these current vehicles begin coming in off-lease and or trade.

    On a personal note, Cadillac revealed that there were alot of considerations that had to be encountered in bringing the CTS to market. Introductory price-point was the major one in comparison to the BMW 325/330 as they didn't want to bring to maket a new chassis/vehicle (CTS)that was competing head on with a vehicle that was "tops in class' for better than 10 years running at the same price point.

    There "soft approach" to pricing and building the 3.2 in 2003 and then introducing the global 3.6 VVT in such a manner that it could handle 370+ HP in it's current configuration was a true trophy winner. With the 3.6 VVT engine, Cadillac avoided any future retooling costs as the 3.6 VVT is in all actuality a 4.0 six and the bore is reduced to 3.6 due to the steel cylinder sleeves. There is tons of room to grow this 3.6 platform and it will serve Cadillac well for at least 10 years.

    Cadillac has done a fantastic job of "reinventing" themselves and their product line and attracting the BMW customer. The "Cadillac service experience" will define whether the "New Cadillac" customer keeps coming back.

  10. #85
    b4z
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    Smile Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    pietro,

    I share your frustration with Cadillac's service experience.
    It starts with the service advisors, the waiting room, and that fact that things are rarely fixed the first time.
    I wish the whole dealership experience was at a higher level.
    It is kind of embarassing to tell you the truth.

    I think where we part ways to some extent is with the powertrain.
    Several months ago I started a thread about getting OHC motors in the"V".
    Some very educated engine guys on this thread gave me the some very convincing arguements that pushrods are not so bad.

    Since that time I have bought a Pontiac GTO and I love the LS1 motor.
    It pulls like a freight train at higher rpms. Much beter than te 2valve Ford mod motor.
    Does it shake a little at idle. Yes. Could it be fee dbs quieter? Yes.
    But it is a fantastic motor. Period.

    I also own a SRX with the 3.6L VVT.
    Lots of low and midrange power.
    You did not say whether your's is a '04 or '05.
    This is a great motor too, but my '04 has a noisy valvetrain.
    It could be quieter and it could be smoother.
    For '05 changes were made to quiet it down.
    There are better V6's out there than the 3.6L. Honda's comes to mind.

    I am really not sure why you are so fascinated with the 3.6L and down on the LS6?

    IMHO opinion the LS has taken the pushrod to new heights. The 3.6L is just adequate. Cadillac needs to come out with the 270-280hp version, as it is a little weak in the high end.

    Anyway, I agree with your criticisms in general, but i think you are being a little hard on some of the fine points.
    Again, I am not disspointed in the STS-V and don't think that Cadillac has overrated hp in the CTS-V.

    P.S.
    The LS6 is a GM motor not a Chevy motor.
    The Escalade is still 80-90% Chevy Tahoe/ GMC Denali.

  11. #86
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Its the fastest production sedan isnt it?...the E55

  12. #87
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    pietroraimondi,

    I agree that seeing a V car should always have a SMG (as opposed to an automatic with manual override) option or a manual gearbox like the M3 / M5 does. A normal automatic with electronic gear selection (aka tiptronic) would be ok as long as there were also paddles like the SL55 AMG.

    As for the engine, I would take pride in owning an LSX engine since that is what GM's fastest car, the corvette, has under the hood. The reason why I like the naturally aspirated engines at 400 horsepower over the 440 hp supercharged engine is that I know the LS6 is a tough engine that has a world of upgrades. When I hear things like the 440 hp northstar needed a bore REDUCTION, I get concerned that the block is prone to fracture and that any potential modifications would result in a highly unstable engine.

    Also if they are going the supercharger route, why not use a screw-type supercharger instead of a roots type? They have a flat torque curve and are more efficient.

    This is the exact reason why I would never buy an Acura. Their engines have been so highly compressed that the only option for performance is to remove the engine and start fresh. With the CTS-V you can bolt on a supercharger with minimal boost and still get close to 500hp.

    I think car and driver said it best about the STS-V in their latest issue when they said: "it doesn't exactly set new standards for the class. The R versions of the Jaguar S-type and XJ have 390 ponies. The Audi RS 6 had 450 horses. The Mercedes E55 has 476 horsepower. And the upcoming BMW M5 will have 500."

    In my opinion If Cadillac is aiming for 3rd place then they have hit the mark exactly.

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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Quote Originally Posted by Afreet1
    pietroraimondi,I think car and driver said it best about the STS-V in their latest issue when they said: "it doesn't exactly set new standards for the class. The R versions of the Jaguar S-type and XJ have 390 ponies. The Audi RS 6 had 450 horses. The Mercedes E55 has 476 horsepower. And the upcoming BMW M5 will have 500."
    The XJR is 50hp off, that's a big difference.....although it is aluminum and that certainly helps. I find the interior rather cheap, tons of plastic and the leather is not very nice for a $75k base car (the Vanden Plas and Super V8 come with nice leather).

    The E55 bases at $80k (a comparable E55 feature wise to the STS-V would bring the price to about $85k). Next, the RS6 had an MSRP of $82,700. The M5 won't be a dime less than $80k and while it has 500hp, it has 384lbs of torque. At best the STS-V loaded will be $75k, maybe even a bit lower.

    I personally do not feel the E55 and M5 are direct competitors to the STS-V. The XJR and CLS55 I do believe are direct competitors (similar size vehicles).

    With how well the CTS-V handles, I wouldn't write the STS-V off just right yet.

  14. #89
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    I honestly hope the STS-V can dominate its class. However, given the available data it just doesn’t seem likely. I would like nothing more than to be proven wrong here. The two things that really stand out are the weight issue and what seems like a lackluster engine that is pushed to its limits to get near the competitive horsepower range.

  15. #90
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    Re: How About This ...the New Sts V

    Quote Originally Posted by Afreet1

    The two things that really stand out are the weight issue and what seems like a lackluster engine that is pushed to its limits to get near the competitive horsepower range.

    Please explain to me how an engine that makes 100 HP per liter could be classified as "lackluster"...???? There are very very few engines in production in the world that achieve that specific output supercharged or otherwise. None of the STS-V's competitors come close to this state of tune. Lackluster..???...hardly.

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