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55K views 184 replies 35 participants last post by  Chuck77083 
#1 ·
Guys... I am currently talking to a fabricator of a product that chills our intercooler fluid. It is a flat plate heat exchanger that ties into the A/C system and our intercooler system to provide the lowest possible drop in IAT's. This modification would give you much lower temperatures than any upgraded heat exchanger.

If we agree to move forward on this and I can setup a time to travel to his shop we will have a complete plug and play "activechiller". Plug and play = no cutting lines or changing anything. He has installed this on a maggie GTOP with intercooler fluid temps typically at 40-50F during heavy drives with multiple WOT's. I am hoping we can get this thing made specifically for our cars with an instruction guide w/ pics. The goal is to have a simple plug and play so anyone can install.

Let me know if anyone is interested. If we decrease our IAT's enough then the ECM will start adding timing which means additional hp. The cooler we keep the air the more sustained our hp and tq are during heavy driving. I will keep everyone posted on the progress of this mod.
 
#3 ·
AC systems don't typically have the BTU output to chill the required amount of water on a continuous basis. It might be enough for one or two WOT blasts but that's it. I don't think it would be worth the cost. I will be interested in results if you go ahead with it though.
 
#4 ·
This system is more designed for the daily driver. I agree with you that if you are doing road courses or constantly WOT then a larger heat exchanger may be a more viable option. I was really thinking about adding Wait4Me upgraded dual pass heat exchanger but living in the city I think the A/C chiller might be a better option as it would provide cooling benefits all the time. This product is setup with a bypass switch built in to bypass the current heat exchanger when the A/C clutch is engaged. It can also have a switch to work when A/C is on or when it is off in the cabin. It has been shown that the stock heat exchanger actually tends to warm the fluid up more when the system is on. Here is a link of another similar product that was designed for the fords:

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php/113125-Initial-Killer-Chiller-Review/page11 - very long but informative thread.

FYI the killerchiller is not plug and play requires professional A/C technican to install and requires cutting several A/C hoses. It also does not have the built in switches capable of bypassing heat exchanger and using chiller without A/C on.

Here is youtube video of competitors:



If this project goes through we will size the chiller specifically for our car for max intercooler fluid temp reduction.
 
#6 ·
No not yet... Still in early stages. The product has been fabricated and used successfully in other supercharged vehicles but it has not been specifically designed for our car. It could be available now but probably would not be a straight plug and play unit at this time. My goal is to have step by step instruction so the average Joe will be able to install. I can't see it costing more than a really a dual pass heat exchanger with fans though.

I am still working with the fabricator to see if we can coordinate a time to have it installed on my vehicle. Keeping my fingers crossed everything goes forward as planned.
 
#7 ·
FYI- For anyone wanting to change out their current IC radiator the Perma Cool 12318 is a direct fit and they go for around $200. Do a Google search and you will find them.
 
#8 ·
Maybe something I am just not understanding here but why are we trying to use our engines to cool our engines? This option would run off of the A/C compressor correct? Thereby requiring hp to lower the temps to then generate hp. I do agree a cooler intake charge is needed to get the most out of forced induction and from what everyone has been stating I am guessing that our superchargers are on the edge of their efficiency map...pretty close to the hair dryer effect...but I don't see this as the easy and reliable route.

I am new the SC world here so please teach me if there is something I am missing. I can tell you that on turbo cars methanol is one of the best additions I have ever used. A properly tuned meth kit can yield over 100hp on a 4 cyl. 2.0L engine and even more torque. This comes from the increase in effective octane rating as well as the cooling effect of the methanol.

They are simple to use, easy to install, and cheap to maintain. On top of all that, the methanol cleans your combustion chambers. For $500-800, it really is the cheapest HP you can buy.
 
#9 ·
The problem with methanol kits is that you really need a tune specific for the added methanol and you have to constantly refill the methanol. I want something that requires no refilling besides my gas tank. The average hp lost when using your A/C is 10-15hp and as soon as you go WOT the ECM shuts off the A/C compressor. You would still have this hp available during WOT and the cooling effect when not in WOT. If you want to turn off the ability of the ECM to shut off the A/C at WOT you can through a tune. Personal preference really. I live in the south so during spring, summer, and fall I cannot live without my A/C on. When it is cool enough for your A/C to be off (winter months) then the chiller gets bypassed and uses your stock heat exchanger for cooling.

It's all personal preference really if you want to make a great drag car and don't mind filling the reservoir then go for the meth. It will gain you the most hp over upgraded heat exchanger or chiller method. I like to keep things simple as I always like my cars as daily drivers. I don't think the few hp I would loose would bother me during regular driving. I think you actually would gain more in the grand scope of things since timing is not pulled as much. We drive a 4300lb sedan so I'm not looking to be a ZO6 anytime soon. Just have fun with what I am driving.
 
#13 ·
Coach-
A specific tune for methanol is preffered but I can tell you that it is not necessary. Yes you will need it to get the most out of your vehicle but you already have to tune for all of your other mods...even just a simple exhaust so I don't see that as a reason to avoid it. The tune is pretty easy anyway as all you have to do is lean out the mix a little to account for the combustible portion of the meth/water mix.

As far as always refilling it...that depends on your driving. As I'm sure you know the meth/water mix is not injected all the time but only at higher boost levels. Since we see 12psi stock I would setup the injection to start at 9-10 psi which I probably only hit a few times on my way into work each day (on-ramps). The amount of mix consumed is directly proportional to hp and on my 950bhp 2.0L (723awhp) running 34 psi I was only refilling my 1 gallon methanol tank every 3-4 gas fill-ups. I was not babying that vehicle around town either. I suspect a 2 gallon tank in the trunk would only need filling every 6-7 or so gas fill-ups. Additionally methanol/water mix is cheap...you can run windshield washer fluid with has meth content in it. HEAT I believe is 35-40% meth which is a common fluid that people in the sport compact circle use.

I can promise that the meth kit would be easier to install than a 'kilerchiller' setup or similar from my research on it thus far. The good systems out there are almost plug and play even for the universal units. Run power to the pump, tap the intake for the nozzle and run an airflow input to the controller...that's it. You can either run a simple boost switch activated setup by t-ing off a vac line or splice into the signal from our factory MAP sensors.

My kit is from LabonteMotorsports and features a touchscreen display to set the parameters of the progressive controller...from there it tunes itself. What I do plan to do (a little more complicated) is have an oversized pully fabricated to run higher boost from the SC (16psi), then T into the bypass valve actuator with the meth kit's optional output signal solenoid. The controller for the kit monitors methanol fluid flow through the nozzle and in the event of decreased flow (running out of fluid) it will trigger the solenoid which in turn will allow the bypass valve to open and lower the intake pressure to the stock 12psi. It is the same as the setup I ran on my dual-stage boost controller on my last vehicle and works like a charm.
 
#17 ·
Coach-
A specific tune for methanol is preffered but I can tell you that it is not necessary.
I can promise that the meth kit would be easier to install. The good systems out there are almost plug and play even for the universal units. run an airflow input to the controller...that's it.
What is that about? Air flow from what? :D
 
#14 ·
Our systems run hot as it is which is why performance is so much better in the winter months. This system would tie into the A/C so that part of the warranty may be voided. Any upgrades to the car besides intake, exhaust, or headers will warrant an upgrade to the intercooler system. Just an upgrade to the intercooler system itself will unlock additional hp on this car during spirited driving conditions.

Does anyone know if an upgraded heat exchanger voids any warranty? Does anyone have first hand experience with dealers on this subject?

I expect that the gentlemen working on this project will sell them for around $500-700. Here is an installation link for the GTO.

http://activeinterchiller.com/

This product may take some time before finishing because he is currently machining all parts for it himself. He has promised several GTO's a kit so I am in line but I have been communicating with him on a daily basis. He is sending me an inline temperature sensor to log what our intercooler fluids are during various driving conditions.

Hope this helps
 
#16 ·
I want to thank Coach for his enthusiasm and offering up his STS V for a test car. Also members that have shown interest in a STS V Super Chiller. We are backed up with GTO orders and still looking to get some parts manufactured. This started out with making a Super Chiller for my car the way I wanted. Then a huge interest from Forum Members to buy one. Our goal is always no cutting of car with the least modification as possible and a quality product. The GTO Super Chiller is a one piece product, stage 2 seen below.



Unfortunately there is not room for that on STS V so There will have to be Freon Lines but we do plan on machining aluminum adapters that will not require any cutting of AC hoses. I do have a local kid with a gen 1 CTS V SC by Magnusson that wants a Super Chiller but Coaches entheasm will likely make STS V next product. Looks like Coach will be getting one even if it’s a 1 off product.

The simplest description of a Super Chiller is that it makes cold water. There is no way a water to air heat exchanger is going to make 50 deg water when its 95 deg out. Think about it you are trying to take heat away with a fan blowing 95 deg air across it. With coolant refrigerated to low 50s your intercooler will be as efficient as possible. While we think of the blower making all this heat it is nothing compared to what AC is designed to handle. A supper Chiller is like adding a very small rear AC unit. Same idea as rear AC in a van or SUV. Once installed a Super Chiller would be free performance and efficiency when AC is on.

Now about Meth injection I have it on my GTO also, its disabled for Super Chiller testing but they work hand in hand. Meth will do nothing when your sitting at a traffic light or just cruising along. Super chiller will keep IAT down most of the time. Also by keeping IAT lower it doesn’t get out of hand. Example when stopped IAT will climb ski high stock so it takes long time to take that heat away. When you go way into boost there is too much heat and air flow for your intercooler to help much even with a Super Chiller. It does help that IAT is lower to start with but on my GTO the IC WT does not go up much in the ¼ mi during 12 seconds with AC off. That means it has not taken much heat away. That is where Meth injection shines it lowers IAT regardless of IC efficiency as well as any other benefits your tuned for, I run 50/50 mix. Super Chiller requires no tune for benefits. I don’t recommend upgrading water to air heat exchanger if your considering a Super Chiller, on GTO it is disabled automatically when AC is on and returns to normal operation when AC is off. All it does is add heat to cold water. :thumbsup:
 
#18 ·
BlownV - my apologizes I completely missed your post describing your methanol setup posted earlier. After reading STS_chiller's post I went back and read through everything.

How would you tap into the boost control solenoid to call it to open the bypass:hmm:? Do you utilize your factory windshield washer reservoir since it has a low limit alarm?
 
#21 ·
I would be interested in one of these for my 2007 STS-V and my 2006 GTO. The GTO has a Harrop hh112. Would the differences between the Harrop and the Maggie cause any issues?
Seriously? Now that’s the way to travel! :cloud9:

Should only be a little water hose routing difference, SNL is installing one on a Harrop 2200 GTO as soon as I get one to them. They are next on list, we have talked but I have not seen one in person. The RR corner behind strut has to be clear near expansion block, every one likes to use that space for fuel regulator. The assembly gets sandwiched between evaporator and the AC hoses.
 
#22 ·
STS-Chiller: You will need a signal to enable/disable the injection. Depending on the kit this can either be a simple boost activated mechanical switch using a line T-ed off from the supercharger solenoid or similar pressure source, or a progressive flow controller using a 0-5V input from the MAF sensor or a 0-5V input from the MAP sensor. Some of the controllers just have internal MAP sensors that require a vac/boost line too. All depends on what you buy but for our cars I would suggest a progressive flow style controller and tapping into our MAP sensors or running a parallel sensor.

Coach: You could use the factory windshield washer fluid reservoir if you wanted to. Personally I would mount the second tank in the trunk (our spare tire well would be perfect for this) with the pump back there as well. Just makes for a cleaner install IMO. The tanks either come with low fluid indicators or add-ons for them. The kits are very complete now-a-days.

As far as the boost control solenoid this was my interpretation:

The factory MAP sensor reads the boost level in the intake manifold. If it goes above 12 psi it triggers the solenoid which opens and allows the pressure from the intake to flow through the solenoid and open the bypass valve. (This is my understanding of our system thus far. I admit I have not sat down and layed out all the components in our system yet so please correct me if I am wrong) This is why disconnecting the 'X' line from the solenoid as Jesse did allowed you to run higher boost. There was no pressure being applied to the bypass valve to open it once the solenoid clicked open.

Thus, you could run a smaller pulley and make lets say 16psi without knock while running the methanol injection at WOT. Instead of completely blocking off/disconnecting the 'X' line from the solenoid you would place another solenoid in-line. This solenoid would be connected to the 6V output signal from the meth injection controller and configured to only open when the injection flow dropped below nominal. Hence, the solenoid would be closed when at WOT, making 16psi and flowing adequate methanol/water mix. With this solenoid closed the opening/closing of the stock boost control solenoid would have no impact on the bypass valve. However, if flow of meth/water dropped the secondary solenoid could be activated allowing pressure to now reach the bypass valve and drop boost down to 12 psi. Make some sense? It is basically the operation of an electronic dual stage boost controller utilizing 2 solenoids.
 
#24 ·
Thanks for the explanation on the meth injection. If I get an okay from Stiegemeier that using meth on these blowers will not do damage them I would be all for it. I think a superchiller and meth kit might be the best possible combination you could have for cooling purposes.
 
#25 ·
Coach - I would agree. I do not know the exact aluminum alloy that is used for our blowers (at least the lids anyway) or what metals are used on the internal components. Methanol will corrode (pit) aluminum over long periods of time...another reason we dillute with water. This is also where good atomization is important and why if you get a methanol kit you should get a good high pressure system (sureflo pump with viton seals). You want to avoid puddling that will cause damage to your intake. I have worked on cars that run methanol for long periods of time and have never seen any pitting or damage except where people have used crappy pumps and injected fluid at locations with inadequate airflow to carry the 'mist' thus resulting in the pipes being constantly soaked...kinda like a drain trap.
 
#27 ·
I prefer in our case to run two small nozzles in the intake, one on each side of the SC before the 'y' into the throttle body. This decreases the amount going through one nozzle to get better atomization and also give the mix some time to cool the intake charge. A lot of us turbo guys like to run two nozzles as well, one at the outlet of the intercooler and one just before the throttle body.
 
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