SALE: STS-V Stage 1 Intake

[Jpjr]

You can argue all day about what benefit a CAI adds hp wise. I think that is a legit issue and perhaps the SOTP difference is in the eye of the beholder.

However, you are not correct regarding A/F. The supercharger, CAI, whatever, works by getting more cold air into the motor and therefore increasing power at a given A/F ratio. If the car runs lean at first it would be a temporary issue until the computer corrected itself. The program cannot correct iteself, however, if you trick it by altering one of the program assumptions like pipe dimension.

Here is an example of a Mustang CAI that tricks the computer by leaning out A/F:

http://www.macperformance.com/store/...Product_ID=757

The stock MAF sensor is programmed to assume a 90mm tube, but this new housing is 95mm. It's letting 5mm worth more air in than the computer is reading and leaning out A/F.

[Fire and Ice]

Originally Posted by trukk

Guys, if the PCM automagically completely compensated for this, then why would anyone ever need to get a tune? It can only do so much.
-Chris

To answer this question: GM programs predetermined values for A/F ratios in that the vehicle must abide by. As a perfect example, when we've taken the STS-Vs in for tuning, the PCM is, from the factory, programmed to a target a/f ratio of 10.5:1. This means the PCM is constantly trying to achieve 10.5:1 a/f ratios regardless of the amount of air you introduce. It doesn't matter if you have a cold air intake or not, the vehicle's computer is STILL trying to produce that air/fuel ratio.

Now things 'might' be different on your CTS-V, Chris, but this is not a CTS-V, it's an STS-V and this vehicle has different parameters set for it. Number one, being a supercharged vehicle, the a/f ratios are typically run a lot richer than your CTS-V, unless you added a supercharger. Ideal a/f ratios that produce the most power reliably for the STS-V is around 11.7:1. A naturally aspirated motor can be run a lot leaner without worry.

Getting back to the first paragraph, if the STS-V is set to target a 10.5:1 a/f ratio and we tune the vehicle to instead target 11.7:1, of course we're going to get an increase in power and torque. Is it worth tuning? You bet! Ask any of the STS-V owners if they feel a noticeable difference after a performance tune or ECU box install. I hope this clarifies things a bit for you.

[trukk]

Originally Posted by Fire and Ice

To answer this question: GM programs predetermined values for A/F ratios in that the vehicle must abide by. As a perfect example, when we've taken the STS-Vs in for tuning, the PCM is, from the factory, programmed to a target a/f ratio of 10.5:1. This means the PCM is constantly trying to achieve 10.5:1 a/f ratios regardless of the amount of air you introduce. It doesn't matter if you have a cold air intake or not, the vehicle's computer is STILL trying to produce that air/fuel ratio.

Now things 'might' be different on your CTS-V, Chris, but this is not a CTS-V, it's an STS-V and this vehicle has different parameters set for it. Number one, being a supercharged vehicle, the a/f ratios are typically run a lot richer than your CTS-V, unless you added a supercharger. Ideal a/f ratios that produce the most power reliably for the STS-V is around 11.7:1. A naturally aspirated motor can be run a lot leaner without worry.

Getting back to the first paragraph, if the STS-V is set to target a 10.5:1 a/f ratio and we tune the vehicle to instead target 11.7:1, of course we're going to get an increase in power and torque. Is it worth tuning? You bet! Ask any of the STS-V owners if they feel a noticeable difference after a performance tune or ECU box install. I hope this clarifies things a bit for you.

Most of what you said there is completely moot.

The factory tune is configured to work with the factory hardware. Once you modify that, it looses some of it's ability to modify the A/F ratio. It might still think it's at whatever it thinks is ideal (10.5 for oyur STS-V as you indicate), when in reality, it will be higher. Once the LTFT's settle in, it will come back down a bit, but it will still be a bit higher than it was when it was stock. When you add a CAI, it will allow more air into the engine. The MAF still thinks the same amount is comming in to some extent (because it was calibrater with the stock air bridge and stock filter, etc.) When you first put it on it will run a bit lean untill the LTFT's catch up, and richen it up some.

I'm not sure where you guys are comming from with this stuff, this is basic car modding 101. Add a CAI, and you car will run a bit leaner. Add headers, and it will run a bit richer. This is true untill you get a tune.

Untill I see RWHP dyno results backed up with A/F from a wideband, done once the LTFT's have settled down, I will take your results with a big grain of salt.

Finally, I am a proponenet of CAI's. I think they are worthwile mod. The end user is going to have to determine if they think paying somewhere between $22.50 (D3's claim), and $45 (my estimate) per HP is worth it to them.

For the record my LPE cai is at about $31/hp, while it was advertised at $12.50 / hp. I mainly did this because I knew I was going to mod my car more, and eventually need the extra airflow.

For the guys who won't do any mods beyond this, they are going to have to decide if the added sound that this mod brings to the table is worth it or not, because by itself it's not going to do much.

-Chris

[silverws6ta]

UPDATE - I also picked one of these up this week to accompany my new exhaust for my V

I'll play it by ear on the results.. short and long term..

[Fire and Ice]

Originally Posted by trukk

For the guys who won't do any mods beyond this, they are going to have to decide if the added sound that this mod brings to the table is worth it or not, because by itself it's not going to do much.

-Chris

Oh really, Chris? When did you review our R&D material? Did you ever to ever come to the dyno with us? Are you some kind of expert or even a certified automotive technician? Because last time I checked, you own a CTS-V and have never made a purchase from D3 so I'm interested in how you base your opinion of our products.

I worked in the automotive industry for over 15 years and 8 years of those as an automotive technician for several dealerships. I was ASE Master Certified and master certified through their program as well. I've been with D3 for many years and have personally taken an active part in the design and production of many of our performance parts. I've come to know what works and what doesn't.

If you truly believe our Stage 1 intake system doesn't give more than a 3 or 4 horsepower gain, then I invite you to come down and witness it for yourself. We'll find a bone stock STS-V and meet you at the dyno. We'll run it several times to get a baseline. Then we'll install the intake you claim doesn't work and run it again several times for comparison. While you're at it, you can check out the XLR-V we built too.

[leija_01]

[CTSV_Rob]

Originally Posted by Fire and Ice

Oh really, Chris? When did you review our R&D material? Did you ever to ever come to the dyno with us? Are you some kind of expert or even a certified automotive technician? Because last time I checked, you own a CTS-V and have never made a purchase from D3 so I'm interested in how you base your opinion of our products.

I worked in the automotive industry for over 15 years and 8 years of those as an automotive technician for several dealerships. I was ASE Master Certified and master certified through their program as well. I've been with D3 for many years and have personally taken an active part in the design and production of many of our performance parts. I've come to know what works and what doesn't.

If you truly believe our Stage 1 intake system doesn't give more than a 3 or 4 horsepower gain, then I invite you to come down and witness it for yourself. We'll find a bone stock STS-V and meet you at the dyno. We'll run it several times to get a baseline. Then we'll install the intake you claim doesn't work and run it again several times for comparison. While you're at it, you can check out the XLR-V we built too.

It's interesting to me how you answer what you want and just ignore the rest. I think Trukk brings up a valid point about the LTFT and the computer needs to "re-learn" them after any modification. I would like to see what the gains would be after running it on the car for a couple of weeks. After that amount of time the car has become accustomed to the new setup and will adjust accordingly.

When you think about it the MAF has been calibrated with the Stock air box, (I believe there is a resonator in the intake tube), and the air box which might have some restrictions in it.

Another point you have COMPLETELY ignored in your replies is the heat soak issue. I have seen the STS-V's at the track and on a slightly warm day the CTS-V's are walking all over the STS-V's. Since these cars have so much more power then the CTS-V's how could this be possible? Seems simple to me, hot air into the SC, it cuts back the timing to prevent detonation and the result is loss in power. Well your design sucks the air right from the engine compartment which will only make this problem worse. At that point I could see all of the gains from the higher flow gone and then some.

Your invite is a bit ridiculous since Chris is on the east coast, you are making this knowing he will not come down to LA.

I sure hope someone that buys your intake try's what Chris suggested.

[trukk]

Originally Posted by Fire and Ice

Oh really, Chris? When did you review our R&D material? Did you ever to ever come to the dyno with us? Are you some kind of expert or even a certified automotive technician? Because last time I checked, you own a CTS-V and have never made a purchase from D3 so I'm interested in how you base your opinion of our products.

I worked in the automotive industry for over 15 years and 8 years of those as an automotive technician for several dealerships. I was ASE Master Certified and master certified through their program as well. I've been with D3 for many years and have personally taken an active part in the design and production of many of our performance parts. I've come to know what works and what doesn't.

If you truly believe our Stage 1 intake system doesn't give more than a 3 or 4 horsepower gain, then I invite you to come down and witness it for yourself. We'll find a bone stock STS-V and meet you at the dyno. We'll run it several times to get a baseline. Then we'll install the intake you claim doesn't work and run it again several times for comparison. While you're at it, you can check out the XLR-V we built too.

Ugg. When are you guys going to bring out the XLR-V I already called you out on. Let's do one at a time please:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...-tq-xlr-v.html


Now I'm going here because you brought it up. I wouldn't normally stoop, but you've set the ceiling pretty low. So...


Let's take alook at this thing:



1) Is it metal or plastic? If metal, it will add even more heatsoak to a heatsoak senstive application. If metal, is is Aluminum, or steel? Aluminum would be better because it's lighter, and disipates heat a lot faster (I.e. won't hold the heat as well). If it's steel, please tell me it's at least stainless so your customers won't be sucking rust into their engines.

2) What amount of R&D was utilized to make this thing? There is no CAI element to it, since it sucks hot air right from the rest of the engine compartment. It appears to be a piece of metal pipe, that you put a 30 degree bend in (was it madrel bent or not, I'd be willing to bet it was just crimped), with an off the shelf filter on the end. Add in the one welded junction junction and a support on the other side, crinkle spray it and you are done. Ohh wait I forgot the D3 logo.

3) What appears to be $60 in parts (if that) is no being sold at a 750% markup. I guess that's for the 'R&D'.

You guys should be embarassed for talking about all the R&D you spent on this thing. Either you guys are realy bad engineers (and I use that term loosely) and really did spend a lot of time on this piece, or you whipped something togther in an afternoon, and decide to sell if for a crazy price, that unfortunately the market will bear. I'm won't begrude you for trying to make a buck, but the way you are justifying it is over the top in my book.

I now thoroughly expect you to come back at me with a bunch of garbage, and not answer any of points that I've made through this entire thread.

-Chris

[Dr. Design]

Chris,
Sorry not too interested in playing games with you anymore. You had your fun and we played with you in the XLR-V forums. One would think you don’t have ANY BUSINESS HERE. You don’t own an XLRV or an STSV. You have already made it public that you wouldn’t be a customer of D3 and that is fine. Point made. You can analyze, call us out, scrutinize, etc... all you want. Have fun. Start up your own "I hate D3 post" in another part of the forum. You have made it quite clear of your disdain for D3 for whatever reason you came up with. You are certainly entitled to your opinions. Now you’re following us around in all the different car forums trying to tarnish our image and ruin our reputation. I am starting to think that you are stalking us or something. Either that or you secretly work at Toyota or something… You need to really understand what you are doing to the Cadillac community. If you think you are helping you need to take another look at your approach. Don’t continue to mess things up for everyone else because you don’t know enough about the application you so vigorously try to educate us on.

Anyways... we have provided the information needed to confirm that our products are proven and make the power claims that we advertise. I don’t feel that as a company we are required to publically disclose more data than what we already provided. We are not in the business to educate potential new competition or people that are not willing to learn about the application. We have spent too much money to put everything out there like that. The opinions that actually matter (the customers that actually use these products on cars they really own) have never had any issues with any of the power gains that we advertise. This is before and after they have tested the products on their own vehicles. Real people not associated with D3. We are enthusiast just like you. The only difference is we do this for a living and we are trained in our respective fields. Our passion for Cadillac’s run as deep as anyone else’s here on this board.

For the customers that have to read through all this garbage, please know and understand that we stand by our products 110%. We have provided dyno results, videos, and supporting information to verify our performance gains time and time again. If the performance gains are not accurate or true in anyway, please let us know and we will buy the products back from you.

Thank you,

Dr. Design
D3 Cadillac

[Florian]

Kids, keep it civil, or this thread goes bye-bye, and your pee-pee's get slapped. Now play nice.

Nuff said.



F