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Cadillac STS Forum - 2005 through 2012 Discussion, STS 2005: Reactions in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Originally Posted by ben72227 But lets look at say....the Malibu Max. Who would buy one of those when you could ...
  1. #61
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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by ben72227
    But lets look at say....the Malibu Max. Who would buy one of those when you could get a Honda Accord or a Toyota Camry? Most American-made cars (Chevy, Pontiac, and Ford specifically) LOOK REALLY CHEAP compared to their Asian counterparts. Lets just hope GM TRIES to make the STS so that it can compete against the competition.
    I completely disagree with you regarding preferring aCamry or Accord over a Malibu Maxx. I've never been an Accord fan, and having rented both a 2004 Camry and Maxx lately, I can tell you the Maxx is a much nicer car. I know all the critics say the Camry has better quality interior pieces, but I disagree. I think a lot of people are wrongly biased to give the Toyotas an edge in "perceived" quality. Aside from the electronic steering, The Malibu is a much better road car, IMHO. The Camry rides terribly on bad roads, while the Malibu does a much better job at absorbing these same imperfections.

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    I completely disagree with you regarding preferring aCamry or Accord over a Malibu Maxx. I've never been an Accord fan, and having rented both a 2004 Camry and Maxx lately, I can tell you the Maxx is a much nicer car. I know all the critics say the Camry has better quality interior pieces, but I disagree. I think a lot of people are wrongly biased to give the Toyotas an edge in "perceived" quality. Aside from the electronic steering, The Malibu is a much better road car, IMHO. The Camry rides terribly on bad roads, while the Malibu does a much better job at absorbing these same imperfections.
    "Perceived" Quality????

    There's a reason that Toyota and it's luxary line Lexus scored highest on JD Powers reliability reports AND Consumer Reports this year. Its because no matter how bad you talk about the Jap auto makers, the fact still remains that they're light years ahead of most American cars in terms of reliability. What do you think goes to the mechanic more - a Toyota 4Runner or a Dodge Durango??? The dodge of course... Over the past ten years alone, there have been so MANY bad American made cars:

    Chevy Cavalier
    Pontiac Sunfire
    Dodge EVERYTHING
    Chevy Trailblazer
    GMC Envoy
    GMC Sonoma
    Jeep Grand Cherokee
    Pontiac Bonneville

    And those are just the really bad ones i remember off the top of my head.

    Not to sound too pessimistic, i will say that the american car makers are making an effort to make better cars (the new, redesigned Malibu, the Cavalier replacement (I think its called Cobalt???), even the Corvette is getting upgraded (Im assuming its so it can compete with Ford's new sports cars - the GT and the new Mustang) as well as the new Sigma-based Cadillacs (which i personally don't like; they don't have any personality to them. Don't look like Caddys to me) and the new Dodge Magnum and Chrysler 300 are all a step in the right direction. Its good that the american car companies finally realized that the Jap cars are far superior in quality to american, so they were forced to redesign their vehicles to be up to par with the Japs.

  3. #63
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    Unhappy Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Too bad that Cadillacs are no longer elegant luxury cars. If I wanted a sports car Cadillac is the last brand I would consider. If Cadillac were to split the difference and still make traditional luxury cars like Fleetwood and Eldorado while marketing cars like the CTS, STS and SRX they might retain more of their original customer base. 9 out of 10 Americans won't be able to distinguish the new STS from the CTS....I can't so far.

    Don't know what I'll replace my Seville with but it certainly won't be with any of the Batmobile wannabes that Cadillac is turning out. They seem to have lost their way. I have spoken to legions of fellow Cadillac owners that think the new cars are downright ugly. Well, they are. I'm probably gonna replace my car with something substantial looking like a Chrysler 300M.

    The new Caddies are warmed over, slightly reworked Saturns and Opels....not much more.

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    IMHO the new STS is an insult to what the STS was. The STS was the 'luxury sports car' and now is no longer seems to have that luxury look and feel. It feels too foreign to me...but perhaps thats what the Cadillac engineers are going for since noone wants to buy an American car anymore...nono they must have their Lexus' and Acuras etc etc

    That leaves the only traditional looking car in the Cadillac lineup to the DeVille and related combos.

    After seeing this, I feel sick now. Disaster may await when they redesign the DeVille....

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barber of Seville
    Too bad that Cadillacs are no longer elegant luxury cars. If I wanted a sports car Cadillac is the last brand I would consider.
    With choices that include the CTS-V and XLR (both among the best, if not the best in their respective classes), why would Caddy be your last choice? Surely, there are less sporting brands...

    Quote Originally Posted by Barber of Seville
    Don't know what I'll replace my Seville with but it certainly won't be with any of the Batmobile wannabes that Cadillac is turning out. They seem to have lost their way. I have spoken to legions of fellow Cadillac owners that think the new cars are downright ugly. Well, they are. I'm probably gonna replace my car with something substantial looking like a Chrysler 300M.
    You meant '300C', right? The 300M is anything but substantial...
    Lost it's way? I would say it finally remembered what made it great to begin with. Bold, controversial designs and world-class performance. It's come full circle in my opinion...
    I think the recent turn around in sales for Cadillac proves that it has worked too. These are the best Cadillacs produced since the 60's. Finally Cadillac can say it's a world competitor and keep a straight face while doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barber of Seville
    The new Caddies are warmed over, slightly reworked Saturns and Opels....not much more.
    The Opel (er, I mean Cadillac) Catera no longer exists. The current lineup is based on the Sigma chassis (which so far is exclusive to Cadillac) and has nothing to do with Opel.

    I don't understand your Saturn comparison at all. Please explain where you see similarities...

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    Talking Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barber of Seville
    Don't know what I'll replace my Seville with but it certainly won't be with any of the Batmobile wannabes that Cadillac is turning out.
    Aww... and C&D thought you were going to switch for sure...
    "The kindly old barber of Seville trades scissors for a switchblade."

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by 2dfx
    IMHO the new STS is an insult to what the STS was. The STS was the 'luxury sports car' and now is no longer seems to have that luxury look and feel. It feels too foreign to me...but perhaps thats what the Cadillac engineers are going for since noone wants to buy an American car anymore...nono they must have their Lexus' and Acuras etc etc
    No, the STS never was...period. It was always a little tighter, little sleeker...Deville. NOW it is the luxury SPORT sedan. I still get tickled to death when people comment about the "look and feel" of a car not yet even available to drive or sit in at dealerships...

    That leaves the only traditional looking car in the Cadillac lineup to the DeVille and related combos.
    Unfortunately, the "traditional" cars are NOT selling...at all. With TONs of money off, they aren't selling. Funny, the new art & science stuff, now that stuff we can't keep on the lot...I know there are still traditional buyers out there, but they are quickly and quietly becoming the extreme minority.

    But don't fret - the STS finally fills the spot it was meant to fill, but Cadillac was too scared before to step into those shoes - not now. But those that are used to the way the STS was (which was alot of luxury with very little sport) will need to understand that the STS no longer is that car - the new DTS is that car, but you have to wait 1 more year for that...

    The 2005 STS reinvents the STS, and now there really will be a difference between the STS and the DTS...
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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by fallenstarseven
    These are my feelings:

    Overall, a big disappointment. Of the previous vehicles adopting the Art+Science theme, the XLR is the most successful and the SRX the least successful. To keep the momentum, Cadillac should have carried on with what they did with the show cars--give us different iterations or flavors of the overall design language. The STS clearly fails to take the language another step and doesn't .....

    My bottom line: Huge missed opportunity at a very very important moment in the Cadillac comeback. No wonder they didn't show it at Detroit--they knew they blew it.
    You probably have seen my other posts and I agree with you regarding this STS being a small looking car with a "safe bet" type of design from GM. I've been driving cadillacs since the early 1990s and this is the singular largest disappointment that I have seen from GM (since the Cimarron in the 80s).

    I saw this car twice. Once at the NY Auto Show last spring and once again in front of a Hotel here in Nj several weeks ago. I went to a local dealer to see the car and they told me that it is not available yet and that the car I saw was probably one that a factory rep was driving that stopped by the hotel. Anyway to make a long story short here is what my impression was of the car;

    1) Takes what the CTS has as a look and dulls it down. Almost like if you were to take the CTS, enlarge it a few inches in every dimension and just generally dulled it down.

    2) The side profile looks boxy and inexpensive. For example: On a BMW 5 Series Sport package the window seal areas are all black as well but they appear to be sporty since the cars have a flowing ane elegant design. On the 2005 STS all the window seal areas look like they were tacked on as an after thought to a squared off window shape etc.

    3) From a pure sheet metal perspective the 2005 STS apprears to look inexpensive rather than expensive. I was in San Diego thsi week and saw two cars on the road (along Rt5) a BMW 645 CSI (2004) and a New Bentley Continental GT 2 door. Both of these cars had a brawny, aero and wide stance to them. The BMW coupe has a very Avant garde type of Artistic look which I think gives it more and more appeal as time goes on (it actually grows on you). Now look at the STS shape, why is there such little Cadillac originality in the car? They could have made a very pronounced grill or even given the car an elongated Aston Martin sedan type of look that combined futuristic technology with all the best of the past, butbthis did not happen.

    4) I''d bet what is driving the shape of the STS are the following factors. a) The car is really designed to sell into smaller car countries like Italy, France, Germany, Japan and China with only an equal consideration for the US market. An interestring fact is that the 1998 Seville was the first cadillac unveiled over seas as a new "global model" as compared to focusing on the US as the primary and most important market. b) since the bet for high profits is going to be in the SUV space (and the Escalade and SRX are already designed) the 2005 STS could not look "too good" or show up the "bread winner" products like SRX, CTS and Escalade for GM. Could they have made a car that looks better than a 745i? Certainly! But they did not in order to keep the other models looking valuable. Just imagine if a lower priced STS looked 20 times better then an SRX or Escalade..think about this..it makes sense.

    If any sponsoring dealers are out there I'd appreciate to be left alone with PRO 2005 STS propoganda comments. If anyone has a sincere discussion to have that is objective I welcome it.

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by JerseyVette
    Takes what the CTS has as a look and dulls it down. Almost like if you were to take the CTS, enlarge it a few inches in every dimension and just generally dulled it down.
    I agree that they should have left the creases alone. The car would have had much more presence in my opinion had they left the angles sharp. The front uses similar design elements to the CTS, but the back is more akin to a DTS than the CTS.
    I don't see the 'CTS look' in the interior at all...

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    I sat in the new STS at the New York auto show. I looked it over carefully for a good 30 min. The STS does look very much like the CTS ! Cadillac made some strong improvements on the design while making for a better balance of the Art & Science" theme. The interior is stunning compared to the CTS. The big question is is it worth trading in my '04 CTS Lux/Sport/Nav for the STS? How will the trade in value hold up?

    The CTS is so darn good I am not certain it would be a smart move to trade up.....

  11. #71
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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyvette
    If any sponsoring dealers are out there I'd appreciate to be left alone with PRO 2005 STS propoganda comments. If anyone has a sincere discussion to have that is objective I welcome it.
    You mean anyone who shares your opinion of the car?

    BTW, the only one I know of with dealer connections around here is Miscreant. So far I haven't seen anything he has posted that would be 'propaganda' or speculation, just facts and numbers on the car. Your posts on the other hand, are based on nothing more than you happening to have seen the car once or twice and your assumptions based upon that. It would lend some credibility if you had a legit source to back up your statements.

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    I think you finally convinced me...

    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyvette
    1) Takes what the CTS has as a look and dulls it down. Almost like if you were to take the CTS, enlarge it a few inches in every dimension and just generally dulled it down.
    Yes, it's duller. Looks almost like a mix between the CTS and traditional Deville - the rear looks strikingly like a Deville. Ludicrous thinking on their part. I don't understand why they wouldn't abandon the old style and go completely Art & Science. Chizzled lines and all.

    2) The side profile looks boxy and inexpensive.
    I agree, as the picture below points out. It's more boxy than a new Chrysler 300 in fact. It's boxy, but yet dulled down, kind of a dulled-down boxy car. It's boxy in a not-boxy kind of way.



    3) From a pure sheet metal perspective the 2005 STS apprears to look inexpensive rather than expensive. I was in San Diego thsi week and saw two cars on the road (along Rt5) a BMW 645 CSI (2004) and a New Bentley Continental GT 2 door. Both of these cars had a brawny, aero and wide stance to them. The BMW coupe has a very Avant garde type of Artistic look which I think gives it more and more appeal as time goes on (it actually grows on you).
    Yes, indeed. I mean the extra $10K+ grand of the 645 and the extra $70K of the Bentley is nothing - can't Cadillac stun me like those two door specialty cars do? Great comparison.

    Now look at the STS shape, why is there such little Cadillac originality in the car?
    I was wondering the same thing. Why can't cadillac come out with cars just like the 745i and 645 styling, but yet nothing like them and be original? Aren't there intelligent people at Cadillac that can figure this out? Make a car just like the imports, like the styling of these E and S class cars, like the 5 series you alude to above, but yet not like them with some cadillac originality. Why can't they have the big grilles like the 300, but yet stay original to cadillac?

    They could have made a very pronounced grill or even given the car an elongated Aston Martin sedan type of look that combined futuristic technology with all the best of the past, butbthis did not happen.
    Amen, read my mind. Why not the big grille to compete with the Chryslers!?!? But yet different too, original. Why not an Aston Martin-ish sedan, but without the price tag and still different and original. I'm following you man!

    4) I''d bet what is driving the shape of the STS are the following factors. a) The car is really designed to sell into smaller car countries like Italy, France, Germany, Japan and China with only an equal consideration for the US market.
    Exactly, the car is designed so much like the luxury imports it's obvious they want to compete, but yet not designed like the imports at all. Cadillac is ramping up their exports each day! How dare they consider to actually compete in the global market when we need the competition here as more and more people drop their money into the luxury imports here in the US? They should have come out with an American style sedan, but yet styled like the luxury imports at the same time.

    An interestring fact is that the 1998 Seville was the first cadillac unveiled over seas as a new "global model" as compared to focusing on the US as the primary and most important market.
    The new Cadillacs should compete with the Chryslers and Fords, not the luruxy Imports - exactly. I mean, isn't Cadillac an AMERICAN car company, it shouldn't be acting like it can actually compete on that level.

    b) since the bet for high profits is going to be in the SUV space (and the Escalade and SRX are already designed) the 2005 STS could not look "too good" or show up the "bread winner" products like SRX, CTS and Escalade for GM.
    I think you nailed that on the head. If the STS would have been REALLY stunning, that SRX or Escalade buyer would have certainly turned their eyes to the STS and purchased a car instead. Good thing they toned it down so the sales of the SRX and Escalade weren't effected. I think they'd much rather NOT sell the STS over the SRX or Escalade.

    Could they have made a car that looks better than a 745i? Certainly! But they did not in order to keep the other models looking valuable. Just imagine if a lower priced STS looked 20 times better then an SRX or Escalade..think about this..it makes sense.
    It makes TOTAL sense. Just the other day I was talking to a guy who was comparing the Lincoln Navigator, Lexus LX470, Infiniti QX56, Land Rover Range Rover, and Cadillac Escalade. Good thing a lower priced STS wasn't on the lot, or I think he'd have switched in a heart beat...

    If any sponsoring dealers are out there I'd appreciate to be left alone with PRO 2005 STS propoganda comments. If anyone has a sincere discussion to have that is objective I welcome it.
    Yeah, though I am not going to be that calm about it. Basically, if anyone doesn't agree with us (me and you), don't bother to post.
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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh
    You mean anyone who shares your opinion of the car?

    BTW, the only one I know of with dealer connections around here is Miscreant. So far I haven't seen anything he has posted that would be 'propaganda' or speculation, just facts and numbers on the car. Your posts on the other hand, are based on nothing more than you happening to have seen the car once or twice and your assumptions based upon that. It would lend some credibility if you had a legit source to back up your statements.
    Here, here! And no, I am not a dealer nor do I profit in any way when others buy Cadillacs.

  14. #74
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    Talking Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    I think you finally convinced me...
    <snip>
    Yeah, though I am not going to be that calm about it. Basically, if anyone doesn't agree with us (me and you), don't bother to post.
    lol

    Who says we all can't agree?

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    Re: STS 2005: Reactions

    why do you constantly make comparisons with european sedans and yet you don't want the cadillac to be in european sedan level (Which is whole lot higher than american luxury). Also if you think 300c is all american, look again.

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