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Cadillac STS Forum - 2005 through 2012 Discussion, Does anyone use ethanol? in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Yes, you do get worse gas mileage with E10, about 3.3% less, as explained above. So if you're getting 20 ...
  1. #16
    MoistCabbage's Avatar
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    Yes, you do get worse gas mileage with E10, about 3.3% less, as explained above. So if you're getting 20 MPG with straight gasoline, you'll get 19.33 with E10.

    Too much ethanol will damage fuel system parts not designed for it. E10 is perfectly fine.

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    EChas3's Avatar
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    Please never use higher than E10 in your STS. A careful reading of my post will show the 25% lower mileage I suggest on E85 (85% Alcohol)is actually modest. You'll be lucky to get 75% of the E10 mileage out of a Flexfuel vehicle when using E85. Most owners report around 60%.

    Again, please never use higher than E10 in your STS. Avoid that if you can. I can't. My post was in response to speculation and comments by Sub & DJP about the real value of ethanol. I contend that even though it is a poor fuel, it survives because of tax-payer funded subsidies supported by farmers & the industry that produces it. Most environmentalists have now realized they have been wrong to ever support it (just the first of many wacky ideas unsupported by factual evidence by the fraudsters.)

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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJP1990 View Post
    I wonder, can it do any harm to a 2001 STS? (Not meaning to hijack but just wondering)
    What does your EURO owner's manual say about fueling ????

    No harm whatsoever. The engines run just fine on E10, whether 87, 89, or 91/93 commonly found in most of the U.S.. The ECM is specifically calibrated for E10 fuels. I know for a fact that my STS will do 143 mph on E10 87 octane with nary a hiccup.......but when I'm going for a road run I slug it with Shell 93.

    (Ethanol is an octane booster: It slows the rate of fuel combustion.)

    With a little Google work anyone can find out what the county/state/federal fuel emissions regulations are for any area.

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    DJP1990 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    My Euro 2001 STS manual says that unleaded fuel must be used. It must be 91 octane minimum, if nothing else is available a lesser number maybe used but engine surging might be experienced...

    It says nothing about E10, nor Octane 87??

    (We are lucky though, we can either get 95 or 98)

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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    That's a revelation - see if you can find the mechanical and calibration specifications for a EURO STS - stuff like compression ratio and advance curves for different engine loads.

    The U.S. owner's manual for the L37 engines from 2000 to 2004 says that 87, E10 or not, is just fine, but for maximum performance, trailer towing, or mountainous driving you might want to use 91/93. I have used all 3 grades of E10 on and off for almost 9 years now, have had zero engine/fuel/performance problems.......... and the different fuels make not one iota of difference over our twice-yearly 1660 mile runs to Florida and back. yes, for road runs and other exercise I slug it with Shell 93 - but if the tank is half full of 87, where does that get the octane to ????? It's a persistent wives tale.

    A lot of members don't remember tetraethyl lead or MTBE in gasoline .............. nasty, nasty stuff.

  6. #21
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    @DJP1990

    ...don't mix the octane ratings...in Europe we use gasoline by RON....research octane number...(in german ROZ = "Research Oktan Zahl" )
    ...in the states it is the pump octane number ("PON" or "R+M/2" or "AKI" )
    ...which is a combination/average between RON and MON (motor octane number...MON is measured different and is about 8 - 12 points lower than RON....)...
    ....you can find the formula (R + M) / 2...ron+mon/2 or "aki" in the manuals and at a domestic gas station...
    ...have also a look at wikipedia...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

    ...it's something that is mentioned before in the forums...very often...

    ...so...87 octane rated pon r+m/2 us/domestc gasoline is almost the same as 91-92 octane ron euro gasoline...there is a difference from 4 to 5 points...
    ...98 octane european ("super plus" ) gas is the same as 93 octane us domestic gas....our german 95 octane rated "super" gasoline is same as 91 octane gas in the us...etc ff.

    ...another point...there is no difference between the engines...mechanical wise...no other calibration for gas or something like that...
    ...and yes...you can use E10 in your STS in europe...my 97 STS could use E10...hell...even my old 91 Trans Am/GTA here in Germany is still able to use E10...

    ...ask one of the GM / Cadillac / Corvette central europe service numbers...there was a bunch of telephone numbers/lists when E10 was introduced in Germany...for all kind of cars...
    ...it isn't mentioned in most of the older export owner manuals...yes...
    (and don't forget...unfortunately...there are also some errors and translation flaws in the export owner manuals...GM doesn't make a good job for the small export market... )
    ...but it is in the domestic us/candian ones...
    ...and...it is in the factory service manuals!...
    DJP1990 likes this.

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    I knew I was missing something! Thanks PontiacV8!

    Pretty funny they omit some, pretty important, information... Oh well, in anycase I now know that it would be quite alright if I were to go for Ethanol if I'd go on a long trip.

    Not that I would, since I'd only be able to get it in Germany... Which is a long trip for me, and the regular gas prices between the Netherlands and Germany varies between 20 to 30 (euro)cents per liter!

    Sure Ethanol would be even more cheap, but I figure to go for regular when price isn't the issue. Since there are no obvious advantages to E10, or did I miss something again?

  8. #23
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJP1990 View Post
    Sure Ethanol would be even more cheap, but I figure to go for regular when price isn't the issue. Since there are no obvious advantages to E10, or did I miss something again?
    ...no...!
    ...in Germany there is a 4 -5 Eurocent difference/advantage per liter for the RON 95 E10...but...I don't care...
    ...I personally don't use it...still prefer the "normal" non-E10 stuff...95 or 98...(which is kinda E5 here)
    DJP1990 likes this.

  9. #24
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    I am a recent Cadillac purchaser, but I am an ethanol producer. I have run about 180,000 miles with up to 50% ethanol in my 2005 Ford E150 (van now has over 350,000 miles). Ethanol actually cleans out the fuel system from the gunk that builds up from gasoline. Gasoline/Ethanol blends do not attract water, but allows the water to mix with the fuel, and run through the engine: If you get water in your pure gasoline, it sinks to the bottom of the tank and can cause problems. I change my own oil, and it appears to be cleaner when I am burning ethanol.

    I produce ethanol from whey, a 'waste' product from manufacturing cheese. Converting waste to fuel seems like a really good idea... sorry that I can't make gasoline out of it!

    Although corn can be used for ethanol, when ethanol demand goes down, the farmers plant less corn, and the cropland can be wasted: How are government subsidies for not planting corn better than using it for fuel?

    Price for ethanol has historically been much lower than gasoline, so blending should lower the price paid at the pump. In my area, the price at the pump rose when the government ethanol subsidy was removed, but nobody really put that in the news.

    I believe EPA testing has shown that up to 15% ethanol is acceptable in cars newer than 2005. The automakers would have to certify emissions on higher ethanol contents for them to officially endorse ethanol: They have little motivation for additional testing. Ethanol burns cleaner, and emissions tests that I have seen are always better than gasoline.

    Engine runs cleaner on ethanol, modern gaskets and seals are built for ethanol, price is lower, and it can be manufactured from waste products: Some of the advantages of ethanol.

  10. #25
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    Lower fuel economy and performance are negatives.

    Ill stick to the "good" stuff.

  11. #26
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    E10 does NOT reduce performance any more than MTBE, tetraethyl lead, or any other proprietary gasoline additive. Gasoline - all gasoline - is a witch's brew of anti-vapor, anti-freeze, anti-gel, anti-knock, anti-foam, color dye, anti-oxidants and gosh knows what else. There are engineers - field mixing engineers - who do nothing but proportion the various mixtures into gasolines at the refinery, then other brand-proprietary additives and Ethanol are added at the tank truck loading depot. Because of the way fuels are separated by pigs in the same pipeline, gasoline contains trace amounts of various grades of petroleum distillates, including diesel and home heating oils - and vice versa.

    As posted, Ethanol - in correct proportions to fuel - is an octane booster: It slows down the combustion flame travel.

  12. #27
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    The 100-year-old 'Bill Relaxing' post is filled with inaccurate pro-ethanol propaganda.

    Casual research will soon uncover that ethanol is only cheaper in the US because of tax subsidies. It cannot be transported using pipelines and therefore must be trucked for significant distances. Regardless of the organic materials used for production, the processing still consumes massive amounts of fresh water. These last two facts make it very impractical as a fuel in the western US.

    The reality is that you probably cannot avoid ethanol even if you want to. It's mostly harmless. As Sub notes, it does have that one advantage of slowing combustion, therefore boosting octane. But it does contain less energy than gasoline. Some engines get poorer mileage on it; my Lincoln had a 32-valve 4.6 liter that lost 1-2 MPG on the E10 RFG we are forced to use around here. My STS doesn't notice. YMMV!

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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    BillR,

    What about my 79 coupe Deville? And the countless classic car collectors of the world? I guess we can all kick rocks?

  14. #29
    Submariner409's Avatar
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    Guy, With a simple timing adjustment and maybe a spark plug heat range change your engine will run just fine on E10. We run GM 454 and Olds 455 engines from the early 70's on E10 day in and day out, 24/7/365 with zero problems. BUT - the proper engine oil for these flat-tappet engines is FAR more critical than an E10 adjustment.

    This 1970 block Olds 455, built in 1998, is running on E10 - 87 octane as we type - 3,200 hours without a hiccup. It produces about 500 hp at WOT on 87. Runs Pennzoil LongLife 15W-40 and Fram HP2 filters. Not a problem........... it's a carbon copy of the engine I put in our boat in 2000, and THAT one is still running daily - on 87 E10. Around here we don't spend the bucks on marina gas - we fill from a half-dozen 6 gallon jugs at the local el cheapo gas station.

    EDIT: E10 has nothing to do with early engine valve seat erosion problems from the elimination of tetraethyl lead - a head overhaul with hardened valve seat inserts is a common fix. Take a hard look at the valve seats in a modern aluminum head ..........
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    Re: Does anyone use ethanol?

    I concur.

    I'm not going to complain about the ban on lead, even though it will eventually cause me more than a bit of work/cost on hardened valve seats. I'm not quite so sanguine about the changes in oil formulations and difficulty in getting certain additives. My old TR6 was not designed to be without some of these lubricant additives or with the newer replacements. But OK, that's life.

    But the tide is turning on Ethanol. It is a bad idea and we simply don't need it.

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