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Cadillac STS Forum - 2005 through 2012 Discussion, timing chains in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; You need a new dealer. 'Carbon build-up' is BS....
  1. #16
    EChas3's Avatar
    EChas3 is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: timing chains

    You need a new dealer. 'Carbon build-up' is BS.
    Ludacrisvp and Ludacrisvp like this.

  2. #17
    SC2150's Avatar
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    Re: timing chains

    2 ways to avoid this issue. 1. ALWAYS use a good full synthetic oil....the dexos approved syn blend is not enough protection to keep the chains from stretching. Ignore the idiots in marketing that reccomend a blend.

    2. keep oil level full. The tensioners are 100% dependant on oil pressure and have no back up spring so if you suck air at all with low oil the tensioners collapse and jumping timing is sometimes the result.

    The replacement chain kit is an improvement, but these motors need a good full synthetic oil due to the design of the cahins and gears. Should be a double chain and not single, and the gears teeth are app 1/2 the height they should be. Just like the "87 octaine" that the scamming greedy marketing brass have decided on. All a decision to lure the target demographics to purchase.


  3. #18
    dkozloski's Avatar
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    Re: timing chains

    FWIW, roller chains don't stretch like pulling taffy but they do wear at the pin joints. The links stay the same length but the assembly gets longer. At this point the sprocket and the chain do not match. The chain engages the sprocket farther and farther out on the teeth until the whole thing goes to hell. It's pretty clear at this point that the cam chain drive system design was botched and the designer is probably unemployed.
    spike1040 likes this.
    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


  4. #19
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    Re: timing chains

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski View Post
    FWIW, roller chains don't stretch like pulling taffy but they do wear at the pin joints. The links stay the same length but the assembly gets longer. At this point the sprocket and the chain do not match. The chain engages the sprocket farther and farther out on the teeth until the whole thing goes to hell. It's pretty clear at this point that the cam chain drive system design was botched and the designer is probably unemployed.
    Correct. This is the biggest design flaw and they did NOT improve it for the LFX either.

    We see them in every state of wear to outright failure in the shop here, and the ones that we have serived since new and have had nothing but 100% full syn oil in are showing little to no wear (yes, the stretch I refer to is the entire chain assy). THis is not the solution though, only a way to avoid premature failure. Until GM redesigns the timing chain/gears this will continue to be an issue.


  5. #20
    dkozloski's Avatar
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    Re: timing chains

    When the last high pressure sliding contact in engines was eliminated by the use of roller cam followers the level of ZDDP(extreme pressure anti-wear additive) in motor oil was lowered significantly. Unfortunately this is just what is needed to preserve chain life. To further compound the problem the 3.6L motor was produced without an oil cooler which puts more stress on the oil.

    You shoulda had a V8.
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    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


  6. #21
    Loadtoad101 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: timing chains

    My 08 timing chain was replaced at 34k. It now has 85K with no problems, for what it's worth.

  7. #22
    SC2150's Avatar
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    Re: timing chains

    And the zinc phosphate needed to control wear on the tensioner bores harms the catalytic converters over time so almost no brand name oils have it anymore. Thanks EPA.

  8. #23
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    Fleet and marine oils have higher levels of zinc.

  9. #24
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    Re: timing chains

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    And the zinc phosphate needed to control wear on the tensioner bores harms the catalytic converters over time so almost no brand name oils have it anymore. Thanks EPA.
    Not so. Get into the oil manufacturers sites and find their various product sheets - ZDDP levels have been reduced, not eliminated. One very large reason is the number of engines that have gone to roller lifters or cam followers - these don't need the same levels of anti-scuff protection as a flat tappet engine.

    Compare the spec sheets for popular EPA-approved 'starburst' oils with those HD oils like Shell Rotella, Pennzoil LongLife, Chevron DELO and its variants, some of the Quaker State high mileage blends ("Defy"). (Shell, Pennzoil, Quaker State - all the same company, SOPUS (Shell Oil Products U.S.))

    Starburst circle = Greenie oil
    Plain old spec circle - nasty good ol' engine oil

  10. #25
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    Re: timing chains

    I should have split hairs and been clearer, you are techincally correct as there are still trace amounts of zinc in todays oils, but only a fraction. Run any of todays oild in a old flat tappet cam engine and in short order you will begin to see lobes go away. The zinc is to protect against the sliding friction and not roller/rotatinging friction thus the reason even todays best full syn oils will not protect a flat tappet cam.


  11. #26
    ktr-sb is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: timing chains

    Quote Originally Posted by prospyder View Post
    After a day and a half in the shop, the car was "ready." I noticed a knocking or rattling sound right after starting the car a day after I picked it up, so took it back to the dealership.
    I had a similar noise right after I changed my timing chains. I replaced the oil filter cap (which contains the bypass valve). The noise went away. It has stayed away. My experience has led me to believe that on many engines, the bypass valve is sticking open, allowing chronic dry starts which allow loose chains to wear at an accelerated rate.

    The caps are about $30, or you can replace the valve alone for less than $10. I think way too many chains are being changed because of noise - it's gravy work once you've done one, and no one disputes the diagnosis anymore.

    YMMV

  12. #27
    ktr-sb is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: timing chains

    Quote Originally Posted by Loadtoad101 View Post
    My 08 timing chain was replaced at 34k. It now has 85K with no problems, for what it's worth.
    ''

    Any chance you still have the receipts? Did they replace either part no 12583470 or part no 25014612?

  13. #28
    ktr-sb is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: timing chains

    Quote Originally Posted by curtc View Post
    The issue is not the chain, it's the crap shoot of a PCV system, or lack there of...the vent orifice clogs, then oil gets sucked into the intake, causing the crankcase to be low on oil...all 3.6 owners should check their oil religiously...
    As noted above, another likelihood is chronic dry starts due to a worn out oil bypass valve. I never ran mine out of oil, and my PCV orifice was not clogged.

  14. #29
    Greg00coupe is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: timing chains

    Everyone bragging up the Northstars............ how many years did it take Cadillac to fix all the inherent problems with that engine? Compared to the N the V6 is a great engine for the time it has been out and I had 2 Ns.

  15. #30
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    Because the n* is better plain and simple.

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