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Cadillac STS Forum - 2005 through 2012 Discussion, Will the new STS be overshadowed by in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Originally Posted by ellives This behavior of Toyota buying market share is only possible because of their profitability. They're making ...
  1. #61
    CaddyFan2004 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by ellives
    This behavior of Toyota buying market share is only possible because of their profitability. They're making more than GM and Ford put together by far and can afford to spend the excess cash on buying market share knowing full well that Americans are, for the most part, lemmings that follow the latest trend on anything. Of course, as I've said before, GM's biggest profitability problem is their pension. It's time to do something before it sinks them.

    My greatest hope is that the Toyota Avalon becomes tomorrows Oldsmobile Cutlass which were found in every upscale american home back in the early 70's... my how times have changed.

    Ells
    That's your greatest hope - that Toyota takes over the US automotive market? Boy, that'd be great for the economy...

  2. #62
    ellives is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by CaddyFan2004
    That's your greatest hope - that Toyota takes over the US automotive market? Boy, that'd be great for the economy...
    Um no. That wasn't my point. My hope was that the Avalon becomes the car that everyone hates because it's too boring... just like what happened to the Olds. Face it -- it's ALREADY boring.... but the lemmings continue to buy.

    If I had my way I'd add a 50% tarriff to all imports.

  3. #63
    CaddyFan2004 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by ellives
    Um no. That wasn't my point. My hope was that the Avalon becomes the car that everyone hates because it's too boring... just like what happened to the Olds. Face it -- it's ALREADY boring.... but the lemmings continue to buy.

    If I had my way I'd add a 50% tarriff to all imports.
    OK, sorry. Sarcasm... gotcha.

    The one that gets me is the Accord. Totally milk toast, but they sell a ton of them.

  4. #64
    1SICKLEX is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by CaddyFan2004
    Not true. A loaded LS430 is $74k, and that's with no AWD, no MR ride system, and 30 HP less than STS.


    Base MSRP* $55,675.00

    Delivery, Processing & Handling Fee† $650.00

    Available Packages $17,799.00
    • Ultra Luxury Selection with Pre-Collision System (PCS) with Additional Options
    - Ultra Luxury Selection with Pre-Collision System (PCS)
    - Interior Upgrade Package with perforated semi-aniline leather trim
    - 18-inch all-season tires with Lexus Chrome Wheels
    - Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks)



    Accessory Options $0.00
    • Interior Upgrade Package with perforated semi-aniline leather trim Included
    • 18-inch all-season tires with Lexus Chrome Wheels Included
    • Preferred Accessory Package (includes Cargo net, Trunk mat and Wheel locks) Included
    • XM Satellite Radio® (see dealer)


    Total MSRP** $74,124.00

    Right but the STS is not LS 430 competition. It is more GS 430/E class/5 series competition.

  5. #65
    1SICKLEX is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by 60 special
    You missed it on the 1990 Lexus LS. Japan is known as one of the first and worst offenders when it comes to predatory pricing. The LS was introduced in the U.S. at an artificially low price. The result, it became an instant competitor for Cadillac and Lincoln. The price did what it was supposed to do and that was to get people into the showrooms. Of course all the dealerships were brand new and absolutely stunning. The sales staff at these stores were highly trained in product knowledge and customer service. In one short year Lexus was on the map and they increased pricing over the next two to three years. You couldn't even think about buying that same Lexus in Japan for what it was being sold for here in the states. Our country is famous for letting foreign competition come in and buy market share at the expense of our own manufacturers. It happens in every industry now and the next disaster is being negotiated right now between the U.S. and China concerning textiles. Import quotas from China disappear 01/01/05. the Chinese are considering holding their quotas due to the possible retaliation by the U.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by Playdrv4me
    Anyone who confuses a C-Class Mercedes for an S-Class is an absolute twit, no offense but theres at least uhh... a foot+, LED Taillights, quad headlights vs. a single headlamp unit, sweeping roofline vs. somewhat staggered roofline...yea. The C class is crap compared to the 3 Series, and even the CTS for that matter. From the outside you can TELL the C Class is the CHEAP Mercedes for the Masses... yick.

    With that out of the way, the Lexus is only 74000.00 loaded up because Lexus WANTS it to be. When the first LS400 came out in 1989 as a 1990 model, it was considered an absolute BARGAIN at 35000.00. As soon as Lexus caught on to the fact that the Yanks were scooping them up faster than mint chocolate chip at the local Baskin Robbins, they incrementally raised the price. Then in 2001 the LS REALLY got good with the addition of the Ultra Luxury package, which is the BIG reason the final jump from 50k luxury cruiser to 72k Luxury COMPETITOR WITH THE BIG GUYS happened. They threw in stuff other brands would not see for at least 4 more years (i.e... STS). Adaptive Laser Cruise Control, a refrigerator in the backseat, backseat LCD display and radio controls, heated and cooled front seats, Mark Levinson audio and Touchscreen Navigation, headlight washers, yada yada.. you get the picture.

    In that sense, Lexus and Cadillac are very similar. Lexus went from 50k max to 72k max in one model year by adding a slew of options that justified the prestige and price of the highline model. Cadillac is in essence doing the same thing.
    Well I think we are forgetting a huge factor. The Yen=dollar exchange. It was low and Japan was right before their real estate bomb when Lexus debuted. And clearly the competition was overpriced. When the Japanese economy bombed and the Yen dropped, the price of ALL Japanese products went through the roof. That is why the Lexus LS went from 35k-50k in 5 years.

    Second, remember the U. S threatned 100% tariffs against many imported products in 1994/1995. People bought their Lexus thinking a LS 400 would be 100k in a month. But everyone came to a pretty lame agreement, thus no sanctions.

    The LS 430 is now 74k loaded as ya'll have stated. It is still 15k less than a comparably equipped 745 BMW or S class Benz.

    Caddy is doing great things. The V-series cars(s). Their whole lineup is almost new. But the competiton HAS NOT rested on its laurels like Caddy did for 20 years.

    IMO, I thought the STS of 1992 (I think that is when it came out) was incredible. But what the hell where they thinking with the so conservative 2nd generation? They went the Acura route of truly trying to make people think FWD was sporty.

    I hope the new STS does well. But so far, all I see/hear is about the 3rd gen GS and new Infiniti M35/45

  6. #66
    ellives is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
    Well I think we are forgetting a huge factor. The Yen=dollar exchange. It was low and Japan was right before their real estate bomb when Lexus debuted. And clearly the competition was overpriced. When the Japanese economy bombed and the Yen dropped, the price of ALL Japanese products went through the roof. That is why the Lexus LS went from 35k-50k in 5 years.

    Second, remember the U. S threatned 100% tariffs against many imported products in 1994/1995. People bought their Lexus thinking a LS 400 would be 100k in a month. But everyone came to a pretty lame agreement, thus no sanctions.

    The LS 430 is now 74k loaded as ya'll have stated. It is still 15k less than a comparably equipped 745 BMW or S class Benz.

    Caddy is doing great things. The V-series cars(s). Their whole lineup is almost new. But the competiton HAS NOT rested on its laurels like Caddy did for 20 years.

    IMO, I thought the STS of 1992 (I think that is when it came out) was incredible. But what the hell where they thinking with the so conservative 2nd generation? They went the Acura route of truly trying to make people think FWD was sporty.

    I hope the new STS does well. But so far, all I see/hear is about the 3rd gen GS and new Infiniti M35/45
    When the next generation came out, they tried to make mild changes, again to avoid the shock to the market of potential customers of drastic changes. Clearly this approach did not work effectively and thus a drastic change in styling. Clearly this is an area where Chrysler is and has been much more willing to take risk.

    Ells

  7. #67
    ellives is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by 1SICKLEX
    Right but the STS is not LS 430 competition. It is more GS 430/E class/5 series competition.
    Agreed - as we've discussed here before. The closest match to the LS is the Deville....

    Ells

  8. #68
    Katshot's Avatar
    Katshot is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by ellives
    Agreed - as we've discussed here before. The closest match to the LS is the Deville....

    Ells
    Absolutely! It's about time someone mentioned that. IMO, the Deville should be the car pitted against the 7-series and S-class, not the STS. The STS SHOULD be the 5-series/E-class fighter. Might be wrong about that "E-class" point, I don't know the M-B line very well, but I think you get my point.

  9. #69
    harryctsv is offline Banned
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Hi Edwin M,

    yes, I was half way wrong because the ACC was first available for the us-market. Here in germany they offer the first ACC on the new A8 W12 which is out a short time.
    Well, I´m allways willing to learn.

    Harry

  10. #70
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    The STS is a direct competitor to, and matches up well with, the 5 series, E-class, A6, M45, RL, GS, 300C a similarly classed/sized vehicles. The LS 430, S-class and 745 are the big boys and will be delt with when the new DeVille...I mean DTS comes out. I'm not talking about the slight refresh for 06 but the all new end-of-the-decade replacement. The STS can only hold the fort but for so long and it is already taking alot of shots from the competition. The all new DTS will give Cadillac a chance to not only fend off the competition but actually put a nail in the coffin. It will have technology like the new BOSE suspension that uses ions or essentially charged particles that react faster than convetional hydralic suspensions. Currently the DeVille is only the Cadillac flagship in name as the STS is showcasing the best of Caddy...

  11. #71
    1SICKLEX is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    I forgot about the DTS. I like the current one. I think its big and says Caddilac very well. It is b/c its FWD? They look sinister in black with the chrome wheels.

  12. #72
    ellives is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by lowscola
    The STS is a direct competitor to, and matches up well with, the 5 series, E-class, A6, M45, RL, GS, 300C a similarly classed/sized vehicles. The LS 430, S-class and 745 are the big boys and will be delt with when the new DeVille...I mean DTS comes out. I'm not talking about the slight refresh for 06 but the all new end-of-the-decade replacement. The STS can only hold the fort but for so long and it is already taking alot of shots from the competition. The all new DTS will give Cadillac a chance to not only fend off the competition but actually put a nail in the coffin. It will have technology like the new BOSE suspension that uses ions or essentially charged particles that react faster than convetional hydralic suspensions. Currently the DeVille is only the Cadillac flagship in name as the STS is showcasing the best of Caddy...
    New BOSE suspension? I have no clue what that is. It sounds suspiciously like Magnetic Ride Control. I have a Bose stereo in my STS though.

    I don't believe the Deville has been the flagship since the bustleback style Seville was originally released in 1980. You might be able to argue the Deville was considered a step up in '76 when the Seville was originally released but never since 1980.

    Ells

  13. #73
    1996STS is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    October '04 issue of Car and Driver has an article about the Bose suspension system. It shows a Lexus LS400 jumping over a 2x6 "as gracefully as a horse leaps over a steeplechase fence." Motor trend also did an article about, while referencing cadillac's magnetic suspension and calling it obsolete.

    http://motortrend.com/features/consu...osesuspension/
    http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?...&page_number=1

  14. #74
    ellives is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    Quote Originally Posted by 1996STS
    October '04 issue of Car and Driver has an article about the Bose suspension system. It shows a Lexus LS400 jumping over a 2x6 "as gracefully as a horse leaps over a steeplechase fence." Motor trend also did an article about, while referencing cadillac's magnetic suspension and calling it obsolete.

    http://motortrend.com/features/consu...osesuspension/
    http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?...&page_number=1
    Sweet stuff! Wow!

  15. #75
    Vrocks's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Will the new STS be overshadowed by

    The picture of the CLS doesn't do it justice, and the Infiniti is the only other good looking competitor. The 300C at the absolute bottom in the looks department, and the Lexus has a bulbous look to it.

    The CLS to my knowledge is positioned more towards buyers looking at a BMW 6 series type of vehicle, not the Cadillac STS. The E class is more inline with the STS's design characteristics and price (not the E55 or a loaded E500). And where exactly does the Infiniti fit in? My guess would be that it will feel similar to the STS, and it has a sporty look like the STS. However I don't believe their past efforts at luxury sedans were very successful, so it'll be interesting to see how sales pan out.

    The STS certainly isn't overshadowed by the 300C, Infiniti or the Lexus. While the Mercedes CLS SEDAN seems to be in a different product segment of its own.

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