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11K views 76 replies 33 participants last post by  ellives 
#1 ·
the upcoming releases from

Infiniti - new M45
Lexus - new GS
Acura - new RL
MB - new CLS
Chrysler - 300c











 
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#27 ·
IMHO, Bob Lutz, the product czar from GM made a mistake when he had the design team tone down the edgy look of the STS just before it went into production. Look how successfull the CTS sales have been for the last two years. The STS would have a slightly more aggressive look if they he left it alone.

I see the 300c Hemi leading the pack right now in terms of looks, excitement and price point. When you see a 300, you know exactly what it is from 50 yards away. You can't say that about the STS and almost all the cars on the road today, unless you walk up to the car and look at the badges or if they retain the same grille design like Mercedes and BMW on different models. In 1986 when Cadillac downsized and destroyed two of its most beautiful models, the 1980-'85 Eldo and Seville you knew exactly what they were. People would say, That's a Cadillac! In 1986 they said That's a Cadillac???
 
#28 ·
60 special said:
IMHO, Bob Lutz, the product czar from GM made a mistake when he had the design team tone down the edgy look of the STS just before it went into production. Look how successfull the CTS sales have been for the last two years. The STS would have a slightly more aggressive look if they he left it alone.

I see the 300c Hemi leading the pack right now in terms of looks, excitement and price point. When you see a 300, you know exactly what it is from 50 yards away. You can't say that about the STS and almost all the cars on the road today, unless you walk up to the car and look at the badges or if they retain the same grille design like Mercedes and BMW on different models. In 1986 when Cadillac downsized and destroyed two of its most beautiful models, the 1980-'85 Eldo and Seville you knew exactly what they were. People would say, That's a Cadillac! In 1986 they said That's a Cadillac???
And '85 for the Deville/Fleetwood.
Cadillac, like many others has lost it's personality. They think that by making their whole model line look virtually identical, they're emulating marques like BMW and M-B but in my mind it was the wrong move. Hell, look at the case of the CTS/STS. Look at the two in a side by side comparison. They are SO close it's not funny. And then to make them LOOK virtually identical, it's just silly to me. What's the point?
 
#29 ·
ellives said:
I like the 300C -- very attractive styling -- and not the "me too" style of the others. Can't beat the price either -- really shouldn't be considered a competitor of the STS. I haven't seen pricing on the 2005 STS yet but suspect it will finally top $60K fully loaded.


Ells


(Post Script -- I saw another posted that showed loaded price of $65K.)

PPS - I buy where I make my money -- the US -- which limits me to either Ford or GM -- and it's doubtful I'll ever own a Ford product
The fully loaded STS's price is $68,330.
 
#30 ·
Katshot said:
And '85 for the Deville/Fleetwood.
Cadillac, like many others has lost it's personality. They think that by making their whole model line look virtually identical, they're emulating marques like BMW and M-B but in my mind it was the wrong move. Hell, look at the case of the CTS/STS. Look at the two in a side by side comparison. They are SO close it's not funny. And then to make them LOOK virtually identical, it's just silly to me. What's the point?
I couldn't agree more. Why is Cadillac chasing the Europeans and trying to follow their lead? Why not set your own course? Take a gamble like Chrysler did with the 300.
 
#31 ·
the 300 c against the new STS is a joke.

I didn`t had the chance to drive the new STS jet, but I drove the 300c here in germany for a two day test drive and can tell you this.

the build quality overall of the 300 c is terrible. the hemi engine is not bad but I had it here in the range 200 km - 250 (120-155mph) the engine feels sloopy. I know where I´m talking about (my vette is super-strong - my xlr is strong) in that range.

All I can say, you really can feel the price difference from the 300c to the STS. 300c fully loaded in the us $ 38.000 - the STS about $ 62.000

the $ 24.000 is the difference of quality!!!

Harry
 
#32 ·
I'm pretty sure the SRT-8 will cover those issues for you, and still be less money.
As for the Cadillac's styling, I have to give them respect for taking a chance on the edgy styling of the CTS, but to then just basically copy that over and over on every other model Cadillac is cheap IMO.
 
#33 ·
harryctsv said:
the 300 c against the new STS is a joke.

I didn`t had the chance to drive the new STS jet, but I drove the 300c here in germany for a two day test drive and can tell you this.

the build quality overall of the 300 c is terrible. the hemi engine is not bad but I had it here in the range 200 km - 250 (120-155mph) the engine feels sloopy. I know where I´m talking about (my vette is super-strong - my xlr is strong) in that range.

All I can say, you really can feel the price difference from the 300c to the STS. 300c fully loaded in the us $ 38.000 - the STS about $ 62.000

the $ 24.000 is the difference of quality!!!

Harry
I too would expect more quality and features for $24,000! But is it worth $24,000 to have a vanilla car? As I said before, you know what the 300 is from 50 yards away. You have to walk up to the STS to find out who built it.
 
#34 ·
I dunno bout that , 100 yards away its a cadillac (none one else proudces stuff that looks like that) , but the problem is, is it a cts or sts ? just like katshot said , its hard to tell em apart

its nice looking , till you look at the front dead on , grille isnt wide enough ....the car appares to be a cts that was streched out like a ball of silly putty
 
#35 ·
hi katshot,

thats the way all car-makers do it now!
Look, Audi a4/a6 or a8, they all look the same only each one is a size bigger.
the same mercedes c e s-class over here in germany you see them so many and although I know all cars it`s somtimes hard to tell is it an a4 or a8 or
a c-class or s-class (espencialy from front and rear)
but the same is on compact cars, they all look the same
opel astra - vw golf - honda civic - peugeot 307 i can go on and on.

I love the look of my XLR
 
#36 ·
harryctsv said:
hi katshot,

thats the way all car-makers do it now!
Look, Audi a4/a6 or a8, they all look the same only each one is a size bigger.
the same mercedes c e s-class over here in germany you see them so many and although I know all cars it`s somtimes hard to tell is it an a4 or a8 or
a c-class or s-class (espencialy from front and rear)
but the same is on compact cars, they all look the same
opel astra - vw golf - honda civic - peugeot 307 i can go on and on.

I love the look of my XLR

....Absolutely correct! I'm kinda tired of reading posts that whine about the STS's resembalance to the CTS. As an owner of a CTS I would say "what better car to resemble?" The STS does not copy the CTS as closely as the three current Mercedes' C, E, and S do each other. I think the headlamp units are the only real difference between them, apart from overall size.

And if I were you, I'd install glass walls in my garage so I could look at my XLR all the time.
 
#37 ·
Sorry i wasnt saying its ugly , i like the way it looks (outside that grille)....Just wished it wasnt that close to the CTS in looks ....

put an XLR in a garage? shoot id kick the wifes coffie table out of the living room and park it there .......Has to be one of the most beatiful cars ever made .....
 
#38 ·
megeebee said:
....Absolutely correct! I'm kinda tired of reading posts that whine about the STS's resembalance to the CTS. As an owner of a CTS I would say "what better car to resemble?" The STS does not copy the CTS as closely as the three current Mercedes' C, E, and S do each other. I think the headlamp units are the only real difference between them, apart from overall size.

And if I were you, I'd install glass walls in my garage so I could look at my XLR all the time.
I'm SURE you have no problem with a far more expensive car looking like yours but I'll bet the first time a guy with a $60K STS has someone ask him how he likes his CTS, he'll be more than a little upset.
 
#41 ·
Katshot said:
I'm SURE you have no problem with a far more expensive car looking like yours but I'll bet the first time a guy with a $60K STS has someone ask him how he likes his CTS, he'll be more than a little upset.
I don't disagree with the premise that Cadillac Corporate could rethink certain aspects of their strategy, but if the STS is a great car, should it matter that it looks like a big CTS? You're not buying the Cadillac fleet, you're buying the STS. Shouldn't it sink or swim on it's own merits?
 
#42 ·
Katshot said:
Never said that M-B was right now did I? Matter of fact, I believe I used them as an example of what I thought was wrong.
I see your point. I meant no offense. But I must say that the near identical nature of the Mercedes sedans' designs hasn't hurt their sales at all.
 
#44 ·
Hi Megeebee,

with the glass walls for my garage is an idea I never thought about! sounds good an as cruzy I´m I might do something like it, we`ll see.
My big garage holds three cars, right now my XLR, my Vette conv. and my DTS is sitting there.
laugh.... with these cars I got my own car-show here in germany, you can believe it.
Thanks

Harry
 
#45 ·
Here's my .02 on this debate.

I test drove the C series, BMW 325i and CTS for comparison. It was the first time ever I had test drove foreign cars with the intent to possibly purchase one.

After the test drives, I researched each vehicle by CR, Auto mags and online forums. The clear winner, imho, was the Cadillac. I was surprised that after all that, I would be drawn to an American car based on quality, reviews and owner comments.

First and foremost, Cadillac has to re establish it's brand image as world class engineering and world class quality. I believe that with the four new models it has released in the last 3 years, it has accomplished both goals. It's critically important for GM to now build upon the acknowledgement of the press and owners to aggressively promote this as a marketing strategy.

I think they realized that from the get go, which was the whole purpose of the A&S design philosophy. To now say that the cars all look the same misses the point. They have to all look like Cadillacs, so that the brand association is reinforced to the consuming public.

I'll agree that the STS should have been edgier, but the re-design can take the car in that direction in 4 years. The bottom line that will continue to sell these cars is the quality and the value that they bring to the segment that they compete in, and from what I can see Cadillac is nailing both.

As to the competition, all Japanese cars, with one or two exceptions, look bland to me. Even during Detroits lean years, they could out design the Aisans at every level.

I can't understand what MB is thinking. The Lexus is hideous, imho. As for the BMW 5 series, I used to hate it, but I've seen several in dark colors and I'm a fan of the design now. Since it took 2 years for me to get to like the CTS, that's not really a surprise. :D
 
#46 ·
I agree that Cadillac has vaulted itself directly into competition with MB, BMW, Audi and the Asian cars. I think now its just a matter of time to see if the GM product has the staying power the the imports have always had. GM cannot rest on its laurels, it must strive to continually improve its cars. From what I have seen over the past 2 years from Caddy, I really believe they will stay at the top.
 
#47 ·
harryctsv said:
Hi Megeebee,

with the glass walls for my garage is an idea I never thought about! sounds good an as cruzy I´m I might do something like it, we`ll see.
My big garage holds three cars, right now my XLR, my Vette conv. and my DTS is sitting there.
laugh.... with these cars I got my own car-show here in germany, you can believe it.
Thanks

Harry
And hello to you Harryctsv;
Your collection of vehicles is one I do envy. Take care of them! I would love to hear your comments of how these American cars are regarded by Europeans. Does everyone there think we're crazy?
 
#48 ·
The STS has unfortunately gotten overshawdowed. No one is talking about it. The 300C offers the same if not better performance, size and distinctive styling for much less. The 300C seems to be embraced by the popular culture that embraced the Esclade. Every month some magazine has the 300C on it. Its like the new STS never even came out.
Which is a same. The exterior is a love or hate thing but is very different. Caddy really needs to advertise the fact you can get AWD WITH the V-8 while others only offer AWD with the V-6. THings against it. Price. 68k for a loaded STS is nuts. You can get a loaded LS 430 for that. The interior seems to be no better than the previous gen STS (which was very nice).
Acura RL is on C&D 10 best list, 300C has won car of the year. The STS is getting no attention.
Another car getting no attention is the new Audi A6. Its like it the new version never came out.
With the Lexus GS and Infintii M35/45 coming, the competition is very, very thick right now.
 
#49 ·
Hi Megeebee
no, the americans are not crazy and many germans like the american cars
but.....the german average engine is a 4 cylinder, so the first thing they say is
"this V8s uses to much of gas"
"too much on taxes and insurance - we pay by cubic inch and horses"
"and till in the late 80s the cars was too big for most european roads"

well, for me I can tell I loved the us-cars when I was about 10 yrs. old.
In the town where I live we got about 10.ooo us-soldiers and I saw in the
60s-70s so many good looking CHEVELLE SS - PONTIAC GTO - OLDS 442
BUICK GS - PLYMOUTH ROAD-RUNNER - IMPALA SS and more, and the love for us-cars is not gone.
My first car was a 71 CAMARO 350 SS with a four on the floor.

My next new buy will be a CTS-V or an 05 STS

now don`t laugh!!!!! my daughter is driving a purple 2004 GTO - fathers steps!!!!!!

thanks
Harry
 
#50 ·
it`s again me Megeebee

I know your gasoline prices run around $ 1,80 gallon, do you know what we pay for?
1 Liter costs today arround Euro 1,10 that`s about $ 1,46
one gallon is 3,78 Ltrs. so one gallon cost you here $ 5,52

and forgot to say that the new american V8s uses less gas than the german V8s.
bye now
Harry
 
#51 ·
Sales is what drives most car companies, especially American car companies. But in MY mind, big sales numbers mean nothing. I love a car because of what it IS, not how popular it is, or how many are sold. Hell, the models with the highest, are usually the most bland. Vanilla cars sell more because they don't offend anyone's senses. They're bought by price mostly, and features secondly. Performance and styling are usually low on the check list for these buyers. I, on the other hand, specifically narrow my potential buying field down by those two points first, and then the test drive makes my decision for me. There've been lots of cars that I WANTED BAD, right up until I drove them ('03-'04 Mustang Cobra, and Infinite FX45 to name a couple).
So pointing out that Cadillac's sales "obviously" points to their success, is post on me. Styling your whole line alike to reinforce ease of brand identification is a lame idea to me, even though it may help sell cars. This one reason I applaud many imports for their courage. The infinite line, the Lexus line, just to name a few are examples that I would use to show that your whole line need not look cookie-cutterish. The flip-side would obviously be the BMW or M-B lines. Virtually every car looks the same, and to me, that's just boring. It's like they only offer one car, just with different levels of trim and performance. BORING!!
 
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