Gotta love the STS4

[Slo-Mo-Shun]

Originally Posted by shudog

Got about 3" of snow here in the Detroit area last night and I-75 didn't look like it had been plowed or salted. Every time I tapped my brakes the ABS came on. What was in front of me? A new C6 Vette... just thought that was great while we're all discussing tires & traction & awd....

So were you looking at the vette's front end or its back end? Or both?

Seriously, in ice and snow I firmly believe that its 80% driver and 20% car. If the driver is an idiot it doesn't much matter what car he has, as he still won't know how to drive it. If the driver is Peter Solberg, you could hand him a hemi Cuda with worn our Radial T/A's and he could probably climb Pikes Peak in a blizzard. There's usually way more traction available than we realize, it's a matter of finding it.

[shudog]

Originally Posted by Slo-Mo-Shun

I think you're overstating the case. Not counting closed-course racing, in 35+ years of driving I can't recall one situtation where a momentary loss of traction while accelerating in the rain put me in any danger.

On the other hand, carrying around 300 lbs or so of extra weight from a 4wd system, some of it rotating mass, can't be doing the brakes any good. Add in a bunch of corner-entry understeer inherent in 4wd and the general reduction in ultimate cornering g's that's going to come from loading up the front end of the car with extra weight, and I find the alleged safety aspects of 4wd in anything other than extreme, traction-critical conditions to be suspect. Braking and ultimate cornering are being sacrificed for traction/acceleration.

I'm not questioning anyone's decision to go with 4wd, as most of you probably see more ice and snow than I do. But a realistic evaluation has to recognize the negatives of 4wd and factor them in. There's a trade off going on here.

Could not have put it better!!! I'd rather baby a 2wd through some snow & bad weather 10 days a year and have a the increased mileage & handling the other 355 days a year...

[corvette00]

The differance in fuel economy I have experienced between the 2wd and 4 is very minimal. The 4 flat-out drives and feels better than the rwd even on dry pavement

[shudog]

I don't know about that... I've followed the mileage penalty for awd very closely and most agree it's about 2mpg... driving & feeling better on dry pavement is a real subjective matter. There is no way the front suspension can steer, handle & brake as nimbly with the added weight of the front axles, transfer case, driveshaft, etc. I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee which is awd and take the front driveshaft out in the spring and the steering is so much lighter, braking & acceleration are smoother too. Granted, the Jeep is not on par with the Cadillac, but similarities can be minimized but not ignored. Personal opinion though. Glad you enjoy your STS4 ;-) It really is a great car.

[Heavy_Metal]

Originally Posted by corvette00

The differance in fuel economy I have experienced between the 2wd and 4 is very minimal. The 4 flat-out drives and feels better than the rwd even on dry pavement

I have about 50 k miles on my 2005 STS4. I spent a lot of those miles pushing it hard in the mountains. The car handles great for all road conditions. I can't imagine a 2WD model handling much better than the 1SG STS4. I live in Maryland and don't get much snow, but when it is wet or snowing I have no worries. The 2 mph difference does not change the cost of ownerships that much. I'm done with 2WD.

[Slo-Mo-Shun]

Not being Jeff Gordon, I don't think many of us would notice much difference between 2wd and 4wd at 60% of the limit on a dry day. 60% of the limit is well into what most drivers would think is "pushing rueally hard." The difference is going to come into play when you make a panic stop and need to stop 300-or-so pounds of extra weight, or when you mistakenly drive into one of those decreasing radius oh-my-gawds, find yourself much closer to the limit than you'd like to be, and are forced into a personal acquaintence with the phrase "corner entry understeer."

I express no opinion on the subjective benefits or detriments of 4wd vs 2wd under normal conditions when the driver is in control. I object, however, to the concept that 4wd is objectively superior and safer in situations that are not traction (acceleration) critical. It is not and cannot be as a simple matter of physics.

This really is not a big issue with the STS. I only get p.o.'ed when I see people buying 5000lb SUV's because they think the 4wd makes it safer. Safer for what? Safer to take that .67 g's of grip and plow straight ahead into a wall?

[05STSWOW]

I had an '05 STS4 1-SG for 3 years and 67,500 miles and traded for an '08 STS without AWD, but with the Performance Handling Package. In the three years I had the '05 it didn't snow once. Now that I have RWD and summer-only tires, it snowed here twice last week!

The new car is much more enjoyable to drive and feels quicker and the handling is more nimble. I always felt "constrained" in the '05 AWD. The '08 is feels and is lighter. The '05 had a 3.42 gear and was plenty quick, but the '08 has a 3.23 and feels quicker. It would really scream if it had the '05's 3.42.

Regarding gas mileage... I always reset the fuel mileage calculator when filling up and, once it was broken in, the '05 would get maybe 16 mpg, but I do a lot of stop-and-go driving. The '08 has been closer to 15 mpg, but that is probably due to my 50 lb right foot and the fact that it is barely broken in at 3k miles.

The Performance Handling Package is great, but all they tell you that you are getting is 18" x 8.5" special 7 spoke chrome wheels to clear the Brembo brakes (awesome!) and 255/45ZR18 Michelin Pilot Sports all around. I think you actually get more. The ride height is lower and the lower front (black) air dam and exhaust tips drag more easily. The stance is much improved and the car sits lower around the tires, especially in the back. I also have a strut tower brace across the top of the engine cover, which is pretty cool. My '05 did not have this feature. Does anyone know of any other differences such as spring rate/height or changes in shock valving or sway bar size? It seems like a complete list of changes would be a selling point. Anyone who special orders this feature is going to want to know what features they get that are not so obvious. I wish it included the drilled rotors, but they cost like $175 extra.

[Heavy_Metal]

It did make a big difference when I changed my tires to the 255/45ZR18 Michelin Pilot Sports/AS all around and after I got the transmission reprogrammed. It would be nice to have better breaks so they did not need to be changed every 15 k. Other than that, the 1SG STS4 is better for me.