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8K views 54 replies 15 participants last post by  Brett 
#1 ·
#27 ·
Jinx said:
Lexus knows this. Why doesn't Cadillac?

And if Cadillac had any sense they wouldn't build anything bigger than the CTS with anything less than eight cylinders.

.Jinx
I agree with you on the V-8 to a point!......But if cadillac didn't build anything bigger than a CTS They'd lose MANY customers (Myself included) You might be small enough to fit in one of those RUNTMOBILES, But I want something bigger and more comfortable that still moves pretty good.....They can build that little junk if there's a market for it but they should always build a real luxury car as well......If they want to compete with Mercedes, BMW, and all the others they're out of touch once again with what they're real customers are looking for I.M.O.
 
#29 ·
No one online is ever wrong.

GM's new V6 has been discussed here before.

From the Detroit News Auto Insider article posted elsewhere on this forum (and thus faithfully paraphrased from a GM Press Release no doubt):

"One key to the new engine family's success, maintains GM, is that it will be competitive with the best in the V-6 class, yet be built at a lower cost. "

This is not GM's "beat all comers with superior technology" engine. This is GM's "let's check off the same boxes on the spec sheet as those imports as cheaply as possible" engine.

Nissan can excel with a V6 because it's proven to be an excellent V6. (Their premium V8's no slouch either.) GM's proof is a press release and a long history of V6 mediocrity.

Facts? Your comments look an awful lot like opinion and analysis. I asked a legitimate question, which you sidestepped by taking offense and countering with a spelling correction. But thanks for the summary.

Nissan is a Japanese brand. Domestic brands are held to different standards in the minds of the media and the marketplace. Even if Cadillac builds the world's greatest V6 it won't get the same kind of approval Nissan has received.

I'm sure that Cadillac will do fine. They'll build competitive if not always outstanding cars, they'll lose their dinosaur-junk stigma, and the next generation of buyers won't dismiss them out of hand. Maybe there will even be a certain awe of Cadillac ownership, like the awe that only BMW and Mercedes carry today. Perhaps in another fifteen years they can honestly claim to be the standard of the world. But I'm selfish. I want Cadillac to be more aggressive and build the world's BEST cars now, only so that I can get one before the reputation and price catch up. Cadillac's approach doesn't benefit me at all. :)

Wouldn't you rather see every Cadillac built to beat the competition rather than merely match them? Beating the competition means more power and more luxury than anyone in the car's class. Anything less is unclear. SRX and XLR look very good. I await STS with bated breath.

And yes, CTS is too small for my tastes. I need elbow room.

.Jinx
 
#30 ·
"Nissan can excel with a V6 because it's proven to be an excellent V6. (Their premium V8's no slouch either.) GM's proof is a press release and a long history of V6 mediocrity. "

I agee completely with that statement. Nissan has had ten years to PROVE that their engine is excellent. Cadillac's V6 hasnt even hit the street and you are saying that its gonna suck. Which it may. Really my only gripe i have with you, is that you impuned the engine originally only because it was a V6. When you and I both know that there are good V6's out there. The irony is that judging by our posts we're arguing about an engine that neither of us would ever consider buying :)
 
#31 ·
Sorry for the double post, but this comment deserves more props than I've given it:

Brett said:
Infiniti is rebuilding their whole image around a great V-6, so if the engine is right, the configuration is moot.
You are right.

But prejudice against Cadillac as a domestic brand means their V6 would have to be spectacular to get any respect for the car wrapped around it. And the specs on GM's high-feature V6 are merely adequate at this point. They would have an easier time getting attention (and sales) with a more prestigious configuration.

Cadillac understood this when they built their V8 with DOHC heads, and the coming V12 certainly shows understanding of the high end. I suppose limited engineering resources dictate that CTS remain adequate. But I fantasize about that V12 being sliced the other way, and I fantasize about XV8-powered rear-drive sedans. I fantasize about Jesse Jane in a tub of chocolate syrup too, but I doubt anyone wants to read about that here.

.Jinx
 
#32 ·
Brett said:
Really my only gripe i have with you, is that you impuned the engine originally only because it was a V6. When you and I both know that there are good V6's out there.
Not just because it's a V6. Because it's a V6, and its specs and GM's position on it already color it as average in a field of excellence. An alternate engine configuration can provide distinction that transcends performance stats. Subaru, Porsche, VW, Ducati, and Harley-Davidson all benefit from this. As does BMW.

Besides, it chaps my ass that kids today drool over a 186hp BMW econobox as a performance car and I'd like to see Cadillac shove that inline-six superiority complex right up those haughty Germans' hineys.

.Jinx
(How the heck do you spell hiney?)
 
#33 ·
"Once again, Cadillac doesn't get it.

BMW would never do anything so plebian as place a V6 between its fenders. BMWs use inline sixes.

Lexus knows this. Why doesn't Cadillac?"

I assumed this statement was meant to impune V6's, but hey i could have taken it the wrong way. Maybe Cadillac will listen and we'll have a CTS with a trailblazer engine ;)
 
#34 ·
kcnewell
Right on target. No V8 no sale. I dont think caddi will undermine the reputation of their premium line of seville though. I do think however they are trying to put the consumers on the spot. No STS for 2004, easy way to get rid of overstocked 2003s. I dont think we are at the end of the STS. They may have something tricky up their sleeves LETS hope so.

George
 
#36 ·
OH one more thing,
Speaking on behalf of gm's 6 cyl.s does anyone remeber the good old GRAND NATIONAL with the 3.8L turbocharged V6. I do recall that being on the of fastest most dependable engines on the market. A leader ahead of its time for sure. 1984 to 1987. Shoot the grandnational ran a better quatermile time with the A/C on go figure. Just wanted to throw that one out there.

George
 
#41 ·
My God, you guys have covered a lot of ground on this GM V6 issue.
Point 1. First of all let me say that even though a V6 CAN be built properly, and CAN be both durable AND powerful, the layout is flawed from the get-go. A V6 is a lousy design to start with and it must overcome many issues just to be on par with a V8.
Point 2. Can GM build a "World-Class" high performance V6? Hell yeah, you only need to look as far as open-wheel racing to find it too. The two main engines for several years have been from Infiniti and Oldsmobile. GM HAS proven it's V6 thoroughly.
Point 3. What about the Grand National's 3.8? Sure it was powerful, but it had a VERY short lifespan because of it's output. Average lifespan was 60K miles. So even though it was a hell of an attention getter for GM, I think in the long-run it only proves that if you want to BAD enough, you can even make a V6 a powerhouse.
 
#43 ·
V6 design is inherently unbalanced...just look at the cranks. offset journals etc.. V8 is configured correctly and requires little to get within 1 gram on balance. V6 was a costly loser in NASCAR racing...V8 rules.
No Buick or Chevy V6 ever came close to old relaiable SB Chev...
Period
 
#45 ·
ljklaiber said:
V6 design is inherently unbalanced...just look at the cranks. offset journals etc.. V8 is configured correctly and requires little to get within 1 gram on balance. V6 was a costly loser in NASCAR racing...V8 rules.
No Buick or Chevy V6 ever came close to old relaiable SB Chev...
Period
What???
No doubt I would rather own a SB chevy than an old V6 but the 3.8 V6 has proven itself. Not only in the Grand National or any other application with the 3800 engine. If you dont think that engine was balanced or the cranks were made poorly then you obviously didnt realize they still produce these motors today with very little problems. Chevy has had their blunders though like the 2.8L V6 or the 3.1 same motor same problems. But all in all chevy as a whole makes very good v6 motors.
 
#47 ·
Also as stated before the Grand National was fast but had a short life expectancy.....Not a real good thing!
 
#49 ·
what about the supercharged 3800series III engines? 260hp/280lbft of torque stock sounds pretty good. These engines are very torque down low as well. How do i know, i used to own a gtp and i've driven the new 04 gtp.

PS- New gtp felt whole lot faster than any cadillac i've been in. Mainly due to TAC shifter capable tranny.
 
#50 ·
gspencer914 said:
What???
No doubt I would rather own a SB chevy than an old V6 but the 3.8 V6 has proven itself. Not only in the Grand National or any other application with the 3800 engine. If you dont think that engine was balanced or the cranks were made poorly then you obviously didnt realize they still produce these motors today with very little problems. Chevy has had their blunders though like the 2.8L V6 or the 3.1 same motor same problems. But all in all chevy as a whole makes very good v6 motors.
You didn't read my post about the Grand National motor did you?
Besides that, ljklaiber is right, the V6 IS inherently a poor design. The balance of a V6 is flawed right from the start. And as for the Buick 3.8, the original ones shook at idle like a hound dog sh%#in' a razor blade. That's the reason those engines had such a LOW idle spec. Plus, the 3800 smoothed things out with a balance shaft which is a COMMON item found in V6's to combat the natural imbalance of the motor.
 
#51 ·
Katshot said:
Point 2. Can GM build a "World-Class" high performance V6? Hell yeah, you only need to look as far as open-wheel racing to find it too. The two main engines for several years have been from Infiniti and Oldsmobile. GM HAS proven it's V6 thoroughly.


I'm curious as to which which open wheeled series uses a GM "World-Class" high performance V6 ?

If you are referencing IRL, then they were/are V8's. If you are referencing their feeder series, then they were exclusivley Infiniti (Infiniti Pro Series).

Honda and Toyota showed up to the IRL this year. So lets see if GM can compete with the world class V8's. My bet is they loose the series this year and walk away. That is typical GM behavior.
 
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