Thermagasket

[SteveThefolkie]

Originally Posted by mtflight

1. Did you have to change or remove your thermostat?

NO


4 About how much Distilled water should I buy?

System holds 12.5 quarts. 2 Gallons of Coolant and 2 Gallons of Distilled H2O yelds 12 quarts.

I would also purchase 1 "quickfill, pre-mix" for that 1/2 quart.

Um .. not to be a stickler for math but there are four quarts to a gallon so with four gallons of fluid you'd have sixteen quarts (last I checked 4X4 was still 16) -

As for flushing - I don't have a N* engine (my Seville is a '92) - but to get all the coolant out of the system why not remove the thermostat before you start flushing and install a new one when you put the new coolant in - that way you can be certain that you got all the coolant out of the system - without having to worry about cold H2O hitting a hot alloy block ...

Steve

[mcowden]

Originally Posted by SteveThefolkie

Um .. not to be a stickler for math but there are four quarts to a gallon so with four gallons of fluid you'd have sixteen quarts (last I checked 4X4 was still 16) -

As for flushing - I don't have a N* engine (my Seville is a '92) - but to get all the coolant out of the system why not remove the thermostat before you start flushing and install a new one when you put the new coolant in - that way you can be certain that you got all the coolant out of the system - without having to worry about cold H2O hitting a hot alloy block ...

Steve

The problem with getting all the coolant out isn't the thermostat. There are no block drains on a N*, so no matter how you empty the system, there will always be x amount of coolant left in the block. Our old friend Rob the expert told us that there was no need to get all of that coolant out of the block for doing a cooling system drain and refill, but for the operation that rfishing is doing, he needs to get it all out of there, or at least enough to make the water run clear. sjwoodruff is right about how long it will take to get it done. You have to start the car and warm it up and let it cool down and drain it and refill it and do it all over again and again and again and again. VERY time-consuming, but that's the only way to do it if you really have to get it all out of there.

The only thing I think I can add to sjwoodruff's procedure is that once the system is drained from the radiator, you can run tap water through it with the drain still open to flush out any other residual coolant stuff that's still sitting in the radiator. Once it starts coming out clear, you can close the drain, fill it up with clear water again, and go back to starting until warm-up, etc. It might save a cycle or two of warm up and cool down and thereby a little time. I dunno. Just a thought. It pretty much just sucks any way you look at it.

[mtflight]

Originally Posted by SteveThefolkie

Um .. not to be a stickler for math but there are four quarts to a gallon so with four gallons of fluid you'd have sixteen quarts (last I checked 4X4 was still 16) -

Steve

That would explain why I had so much coolant left-over!!

Sorry, brain-fart.

[mcowden]

Originally Posted by mtflight

That would explain why I had so much coolant left-over!!

Sorry, brain-fart.

You know, there are 3 kinds of people in the world: Those who can count and those who can't.

For the geeks in the audience, there are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.

[mtflight]

Originally Posted by mcowden

You know, there are 3 kinds of people in the world: Those who can count and those who can't.

For the geeks in the audience, there are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.

Red shifts calculations, event horizons, space-time continuum, accelerated expansion of the universe, relativity equations... I have been known to do those calculations very well (according to my grades on those examinations). When it comes to getting down and dirty and pouring coolant and distilled water in a greasy car.... I slack. We can't all be perfect.

[JimHare]

Speaking of red shifts, I suppose according to Mr. Doppler, RED would be the perfect color for a Caddy...

[sjwoodruff]

Originally Posted by mcowden

The only thing I think I can add to sjwoodruff's procedure is that once the system is drained from the radiator, you can run tap water through it with the drain still open to flush out any other residual coolant stuff that's still sitting in the radiator. Once it starts coming out clear, you can close the drain, fill it up with clear water again, and go back to starting until warm-up, etc. It might save a cycle or two of warm up and cool down and thereby a little time. I dunno. Just a thought. It pretty much just sucks any way you look at it.

Well said. That's actually what I did in between refills/draining. It still took a couple hours though. Definitely a PITA. The funny thing is even after a couple hours of draining / refilling / repeating and driving for 420 miles with this stuff in my system, there was still a slightly orange tint when I started flushing to remove the Thermagasket. Definitely impossible to do a 'complete' flush.

[rfishing]

Originally Posted by sjwoodruff

Well said. That's actually what I did in between refills/draining. It still took a couple hours though. Definitely a PITA. The funny thing is even after a couple hours of draining / refilling / repeating and driving for 420 miles with this stuff in my system, there was still a slightly orange tint when I started flushing to remove the Thermagasket. Definitely impossible to do a 'complete' flush.

I talked with ThermaGasket guy, and he informed me about 15 calls per month on these norstar engines with blown gaskets. No surprise. He told me, with norstars, he has tried everything to get the coolant right, even vacuum extraction (pretty sure thats what he called it), but never works completely. Your way seems to be only way, have to get all the air pockets out, so must run engine between drains, and fills.

My order has yet to arrive. Some mix up I think with the regular mail versus overnight. Its what I paid for, regular mail that is, but thought they told me in a day or two. Meanwhile both cars sitting, because wife is afraid to drive new one. Might get a scratch on the paint you know.

LOL

[rfishing]

Soon as I touched the lower radiator hose clamp, I noticed it was loose. I touched the hose with my screw driver, and sure enough coolant began to seep out. Cadillac Dealer apparently failed to tighten the clamp, no wonder I was losing coolant. I would think they should have found that at dealership.

Anyway, I flushed and flushed, and even took out thermostat and flushed. Everything is clear water now.

Interesting notes:

1. Last time engine was shut off, coolant was overflowing out the overflow hose. When I removed Radiator cap today, coolant level was at normal.

2. After topping off with water and running engine up to normal temp, the water is not overflowing out the overflow hose as before. Could Bars Leak Tabs have been clogging something up? No clumps drained out. Temp went up to 212 degree, I turned on heater, and it went down.

3. Engine is idling smooth, to me anyway it sounds great and without any missing. During warm up, Upper Hose slowly got hot, and lower hose was cold until 195 degrees, then thermostat opens and lower hose became hot. No leaks anywhere. If not for detecting gas in coolant I would think nothing is wrong. Is it possible gas tests were confused as I do detect an exhaust smell nearby with hood up, might be from exhaust manifold area. Wondering, if perhaps the gas tester picked up the exhaust gases I am smelling? Although I did not test drive car, just flushed, filled with water, and ran at idle, it could be that as soon as I drive car under load, it will start to overflow again.

3. Since no coolant is in system, what keeps the water from boiling at 212 degrees?

Im anxiously waiting for Thermogasket kit.

[mtflight]

Originally Posted by rfishing

Soon as I touched the lower radiator hose clamp, I noticed it was loose. I touched the hose with my screw driver, and sure enough coolant began to seep out. Cadillac Dealer apparently failed to tighten the clamp, no wonder I was losing coolant. I would think they should have found that at dealership.

Anyway, I flushed and flushed, and even took out thermostat and flushed. Everything is clear water now.

Interesting notes:

1. Last time engine was shut off, coolant was overflowing out the overflow hose. When I removed Radiator cap today, coolant level was at normal.

2. After topping off with water and running engine up to normal temp, the water is not overflowing out the overflow hose as before. Could Bars Leak Tabs have been clogging something up? No clumps drained out. Temp went up to 212 degree, I turned on heater, and it went down.

3. Engine is idling smooth, to me anyway it sounds great and without any missing. During warm up, Upper Hose slowly got hot, and lower hose was cold until 195 degrees, then thermostat opens and lower hose became hot. No leaks anywhere. If not for detecting gas in coolant I would think nothing is wrong. Is it possible gas tests were confused as I do detect an exhaust smell nearby with hood up, might be from exhaust manifold area. Wondering, if perhaps the gas tester picked up the exhaust gases I am smelling? Although I did not test drive car, just flushed, filled with water, and ran at idle, it could be that as soon as I drive car under load, it will start to overflow again.

3. Since no coolant is in system, what keeps the water from boiling at 212 degrees?

Im anxiously waiting for Thermogasket kit.

An improperly clamped hose could certainly cause seepage and subsequent overheating. As the system would not be pressurized to specs. It could boil, and lose cooling capacity. (Same for a bad pressure tank cap).

I hope that was your problem all along; however, wouldn't you smell the coolant? I was checking tire pressure at the gas station and noticed the coolant smell when my radiator was cracked. I thought "some poor bastard has an improperly maintained cooling system." Then I thought to check, just in case--and I was floored. It was me.

Luckily being well aware of the situation I never pushed the car. The A/C, by the way, when turned on will automatically turn on the other cooling fan--thereby keeping your temperatures down.

I would drive your car to be sure that wasn't the problem, but without coolant, and only water--you risk boiling sooner (if it IS the headgasket).

Good luck with that, and I hope you have good news soon.

[mcowden]

Water under pressure boils at higher temperatures. The higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point. I don't know the exact formula, but 15 PSI will raise the boiling point to some extent. You can put a pot of water in a vacuum and it will start boiling at 70 degrees if you drop the pressure sufficiently.

[sjwoodruff]

Originally Posted by rfishing

Soon as I touched the lower radiator hose clamp, I noticed it was loose. I touched the hose with my screw driver, and sure enough coolant began to seep out. Cadillac Dealer apparently failed to tighten the clamp, no wonder I was losing coolant. I would think they should have found that at dealership.

Anyway, I flushed and flushed, and even took out thermostat and flushed. Everything is clear water now.

Interesting notes:

1. Last time engine was shut off, coolant was overflowing out the overflow hose. When I removed Radiator cap today, coolant level was at normal.

2. After topping off with water and running engine up to normal temp, the water is not overflowing out the overflow hose as before. Could Bars Leak Tabs have been clogging something up? No clumps drained out. Temp went up to 212 degree, I turned on heater, and it went down.

3. Engine is idling smooth, to me anyway it sounds great and without any missing. During warm up, Upper Hose slowly got hot, and lower hose was cold until 195 degrees, then thermostat opens and lower hose became hot. No leaks anywhere. If not for detecting gas in coolant I would think nothing is wrong. Is it possible gas tests were confused as I do detect an exhaust smell nearby with hood up, might be from exhaust manifold area. Wondering, if perhaps the gas tester picked up the exhaust gases I am smelling? Although I did not test drive car, just flushed, filled with water, and ran at idle, it could be that as soon as I drive car under load, it will start to overflow again.

3. Since no coolant is in system, what keeps the water from boiling at 212 degrees?

Im anxiously waiting for Thermogasket kit.

You know rfishing, the more I read about your symptoms, the less I think you have an issue with your head gasket. The way you were describing your situation before made me think that you had a breach in the cooling system somewhere that wasn't internal. This loose hose clamp would seem to validate that fact. Even with a minor leak in only one cylinder, the car should idle very roughly with pure water in the cooling system at cold start-up, assuming you have a bad head gasket causing the coolant loss you spoke of. Before you treat with the thermagasket, I'd take the car on a short 10-15 mile trip. Hit some of the steep inclines you mentioned previously and see how it responds. If there isn't any overheating, and if the coolant level is the same once the car has completely cooled down, I think you may have discovered and remedied your problem(s). At cold start up, especially in the morning, you should see copious amounts of steam at the exhaust if you have a head gasket leak. A little steam is normal as water vapor is a natural by-product of combustion. You'll know if you're seeing more than normal amounts.

[rfishing]

I am thinking way back to my engineering days in the Navy. One pound of pressure increases boiling point by 3 degrees. So with 15 pound Relief on Radiator Cap, that means, 15 psi x 3 degrees = 45 degrees higher boiling point. 212 is boiling point normally, so 212 + 45 = 257 degrees for new boiling point.

That makes sense to me now that I think about it. Engine supposedly displays shut down message at 257 degrees.

[mtflight]

Originally Posted by rfishing

I am thinking way back to my engineering days in the Navy. One pound of pressure increases boiling point by 3 degrees. So with 15 pound Relief on Radiator Cap, that means, 15 psi x 3 degrees = 45 degrees higher boiling point. 212 is boiling point normally, so 212 + 45 = 257 degrees for new boiling point.

That makes sense to me now that I think about it. Engine supposedly displays shut down message at 257 degrees.

And that's just water alone. Coolant boils at a higher temperature, plus the pressurization--even higher.

[rfishing]

Originally Posted by sjwoodruff

You know rfishing, the more I read about your symptoms, the less I think you have an issue with your head gasket. The way you were describing your situation before made me think that you had a breach in the cooling system somewhere that wasn't internal. This loose hose clamp would seem to validate that fact. Even with a minor leak in only one cylinder, the car should idle very roughly with pure water in the cooling system at cold start-up, assuming you have a bad head gasket causing the coolant loss you spoke of. Before you treat with the thermagasket, I'd take the car on a short 10-15 mile trip. Hit some of the steep inclines you mentioned previously and see how it responds. If there isn't any overheating, and if the coolant level is the same once the car has completely cooled down, I think you may have discovered and remedied your problem(s). At cold start up, especially in the morning, you should see copious amounts of steam at the exhaust if you have a head gasket leak. A little steam is normal as water vapor is a natural by-product of combustion. You'll know if you're seeing more than normal amounts.

Yes but...

What about the gas detected in coolant? I watched this guy do the test and he held this unit above the radiator cap so as to not contact the coolant. After a minute or two, I could see a slight change in the color of the fluid in his detector, and he exclaims, ah ha it is detecting gas and will turn yellow soon. I never saw it turn yellow, some other color like blue. He told me if he held it there long enough the yellow would come, ended test and says head gasket is blown or block is cracked, or head is cracked.

I will be optimistic and test drive the car. Optimistic and think, what if gas were getting into the testing device from another source? There were other cars being worked on right next to mine, and in front of mine. I do think there is an occasional exhaust smell under the hood as well.

Hmm...

Worth a try!

Say a prayer, knock on wood, cross fingers, spit on the car, and kick the tires, I will try today.