Thermagasket

[denscor]

Did you do a compression test? All cylinder should be with 3-5% of each other The ones next to each other should be very close 1-3- 5- 7 and 2-4-6-8 . Example 1--120 3--110 ok 5--40 7-- 60 then more likely you have a blown head gasket between 5 and 7. Compreesion gauges are only about 10-20 and you could do it yourself its easy!

[Ranger]

He is probably correct on all counts except that "it might not be accuarate". It is a positive test, however you could buy test strips at a parts store and do the combustion gas test yourself I believe.
A leakdown test does a good job of locating a burnt valve also.

[rfishing]

Does anyone know where these test strips are sold? My local parts store has no idea about them, and my internet search only comes up with test strips for checking coolant protection freeze / boil level.

[Ranger]

Diagnosis of Headgasket Problems:
Symptoms of a blown head gasket include a continually increasing consumption of coolant, a milky accumulation found under the engine oil cap after extended engine runs at operating temperature, a very obvious thickening or sludging of the crankcase oil, gas bubbles exiting through the radiator cap,or inexplicable oil consumption. There are several diagnoses that can be done on the car that will nearly pinpoint the trouble spot and tell you if it is indeed a head gasket or something else.

1. The first test that should be completed is a coolant system pressure test Test your system for leaks with nine to twelve psi pressure. It should not show any appreciable pressure loss within 5 minutes.
2. The second is a block test, also known as a combustion leak test, performed on the coolant in the radiator/expansion reservoir to determine if you have exhaust gases in your cooling system. A combustion test kit can be found on the web or at your local NAPA,Snap-On, or auto parts store. The part number is NAPA 700-1006 ($50) or Snap-On GDCT16 "Combustion Leak Tester ". The homemade version is in Special Tools. Exhaust gases in your cooling system can suggest a head gasket leak, a cracked block, or a warped head, etc. To do the test, add the blue detector fluid to the block-tester plastic container according to the directions, and place it onto the coolant reservoir. The squeeze bulb is squeezed repeatedly (Some block testers, have a tube that connects to a vacuum line instead of a squeeze bulb). Squeezing the bulb will draw air from the reservoir through the test fluid. Block tester fluid is normally blue. Exhaust gases in the cooling system will change the color of the fluid to yellow, indicating a combustion leak. If the fluid remains blue, exhaust gases were not present during the test. The vehicle should be started and at operating temperature before performing the test.
3. The third, usually performed after a "failing" exhaust gas test, is a leak down test of each of the cylinders. This is similar in nature to a compression test but this actually will measure close to the exact location of compression leakage in the cylinder.
4. A fourth test is a chemical analysis of the engine oil. Often, what might be construed to be a head gasket leak of engine oil could actually be seepage past a bad valve guide/piston ring, etc. In this scenario, a test of the motor oil will usually reveal inordinate amounts of combustion by product in the oil. Then again, if any of these are bad, the head gasket's gonna be removed anyhow.

http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/hea..._leak_test.htm
http://www.testtoolsinc.com/

Homemade Exhaust Gas Leak Detector. If you suspect a head gasket leak resulting in combustion gases entering your coolant, you Fluid Transfer Bottlecan test for this using special test fluid which turns from blue to yellow in the presence of exhaust gases. Mityvac has a fluid transfer bottle in their vacuum pump kits (pictured) or you can make one using a small jar and a lid with hoses through it. Fill the bottle part way with Lisle testing fluid 75630 for gasoline engines. Place one vacuum tube on your Mityvac or on a source of engine vacuum to pull gases through the bottle. Place a short tube on the other side of the bottle cap to extend down into the fluid to force the gases to draw through the fluid. Seal the coolant reservoir top with an old reservoir cap through which you have glued the sampling hose. Run the engine and draw vacuum: gases will rise from the coolant in the reservoir, exit via your hose through the reservoir cap, enter your test chamber by bubbling through the fluid, and if it turns yellow you have an exhaust leak into the coolant.

[STS 310]

I must have been asleep, But why did this thread start?

Am I the only one who thought that a HG was the problem and a R/R was the fix, OR was everyone holding their breat looking for a repair in a bottle?

This has gone on long enough, their is only one R/R for a blown HG, Lets face reality and move on.

RANGER, you new it all along as most of us did. Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny do not exist as do a "quick fix".

[STS 310]

bump

[rfishing]

Originally Posted by STS 310

I must have been asleep, But why did this thread start?

Am I the only one who thought that a HG was the problem and a R/R was the fix, OR was everyone holding their breat looking for a repair in a bottle?

This has gone on long enough, their is only one R/R for a blown HG, Lets face reality and move on.

RANGER, you new it all along as most of us did. Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny do not exist as do a "quick fix".

Bottom line so far:

2 out 3 of norstar engines in this series of messages were successful in repairing the head gaskets with Thermagasket. Mine is the 3rd and I have not confirmed with block test or leak down test that the head gasket repair was successful as of yet. I will know soon hopefully.

[C170B]

Dear rfishing

I'm pulling for you.

Your sharing the trials and tribulations of N* overheating/head gasket will surely help others to avoid the 3,000 to 9000 $$ surprise of a high mileage luxury auto.

The compression leak down test is an annual requirement on every piston aircraft engine prior to relicense. Autos are seldom checked this way but it is the same principle. Simply stated they turn engine until both valves of selected cylinder are closed and then put about 80 lbs of shop air into cylinder w an inexpensive manifold. If it holds 80 lbs of pressure for a few minutes (10-15) it passes. The mechanic will listen at exhaust pipe for sound of AIR slowly escaping which indicates burnt or warpped exhaust valve. You are interested the headgasket's condition. It is possible to FAIL the leakdown
test, remove the head and find the gasket in good condition. But at this point the headbolt threads are toast and you cannot usually reassemble engine. A wise mechanic wants no part of that senario .

You can purchase tools from aircraft supply company for 100.00 to 125.00 dollars. Do the job at home One of your neighbors may supply an air compressor if you don't own one. The result can be important for you since you are searching for the REAL diagnosis.

I wish we could just purchase a new original crate engine and have it installed in our cars for say $5,000 w new cooling system included.

BTW do you have two (2) clamps on lower hose near water pump thermostat housing?

[rfishing]

I think I found the problem. Down under the radiator was a little creature. Could it be a mouse? Yes I think that is it. No its is a little gremlin.
Gremlins!!!

LOL Seriously last few days, there has been a small mouse under the radiator.

2 hose clamps? I have one on the hose coming off the lower radiator, and at other end of that hose connecting to the thermostat housing is one more clamp. Same deal on upper hose, is that what you mean? Also, the lower hose has a metal support coil in it. I did remove the hose entirely and looked through it, not clogged.

Lets put it this way, at 255 degrees enough pressure was there to lift the radiator cap and cause it to overflow out the overflow hose. At that time, I inspected everywhere possible and could find no other leaks.

Did I mention, when I got to bottom of the mountain pass, I stopped and inspected the cooling system at 194 degrees. Overflow hose was slightly wet, was dry before I left my house. When I took off the cap, it let off air, and the tank was filled right up to the cap. Almost as if something was clogged inside not allowing the coolant to flow out of the overflow tank. At only 194 degrees I was baffled as to why it was so full in the overflow.

Then driving up mountain temp was normal until I hit that steepest part, where it steadily climbed up to 255 before getting over the pass.

I think Im repeating myself here...

By the way, with the equalizing hose off of the overflow tank when engine running cold, should the hose be spraying coolant? All I get is steady low volume flow. A little more than a dribble.

Additionally, you stated, "it is possible to fail leak down test, and still have a good head gasket." If that is the case, then what is happening, valve job, or rings?

[Ranger]

Originally Posted by rfishing

By the way, with the equalizing hose off of the overflow tank when engine running cold, should the hose be spraying coolant? All I get is steady low volume flow. A little more than a dribble.

I believe you are talking about the purge line. What you are seeing sounds normal as the water pump is turning low RPM at idle. If you throttle up, you should see a higher flow rate. The important thing is that there IS flow, indicating that the line is not plugged.

[Ur7x]

Originally Posted by rfishing

Bottom line so far:
2 out 3 of norstar engines in this series of messages were successful in repairing the head gaskets with Thermagasket. Mine is the 3rd and I have not confirmed with block test or leak down test that the head gasket repair was successful as of yet. I will know soon hopefully.

Real bottom line...

2 out of 3 of the owners North* Engines in this series THOUGHT they had a head gasket issue (or were told so by a less than honest dealer/mechanic)... Poured in some goop and produced a temporary fix...

My story... I had a Ford 5.0... would loose coolant, from time to time it would over heat and it produced steam out of the oil fill... 5.0 Fords are also known for head gaskets...

So WITHOUT DOING ANY OF THE TESTS... I pulled the heads and replaced the gaskets... Now I know on a 5.0 this is a DYI project..took a weekend and cost $150 for a gasket kit...

But guess what... My problem really was a hairline crack in the radiator tank; partnered up with some blow-by on a couple bad rings... If I'd done the tests... exactly like the ones that Ranger has been recommending since the first page of this thread... I would have found the leak and would have spent the money on a new rad instead.

Trust me... Do the tests.

[rfishing]

I think Im screwed.

Before I went in for the leak down test today, the guy turned me away. Basically decided it was in my best interest to go directly to what he called, "the best engine rebuilder in the area." Without looking or listening, to the car, if I have a blown gasket it would save me money to go directly to this other guy because he would not do a Head Gasket on this engine anyway.

The other guy I was referred to, will check it out on thursday. However, if its a blown head gasket or other problem requiring a rebuild, he wont work on this engine, only do an engine exchange with new engine.

So basically, if on thursday they say, its blown gasket, im screwed. Right back to where I started with this car, nobody wants to work on 4.6 norstar.

[DaveDeVille]

r, that totally sucks. I hope they find something else. Something easily fixed like the p-tank, rad, or mouse chewed something. I really appreciate hearing your story and hope it will have a happy ending.

[haymaker]

Cylinder leak down test??? Using this term for the head gasket test is inaccurate. I have been as guilty as others on this forum for using this term in conjunction with the head gasket test. The cylinder leak down test is used to test the various related cylinder and cylinder head parts for their ability to maintain pressure (or percentage of the original pressure) in the cylinder for any given duration or test period.

The head gasket test is performed for a different reason. That being to test the head gaskets ability to contain the pressure in the cylinder rather than letting the pressure escape into the cooling system. If a small amount of the pressure escapes by the piston rings or the valves doesn’t enter in to the results of this test as to pass or fail only the ability of the head gasket to seal the cylinders pressure from the cooling system is important.

The idea behind this test is to determine if cylinder pressure is entering the cooling system and we all know if this happens when the engine is in operation. The coolant will be forced out of the cooling system by way of the expansion tank, pressure cap, and overflow hose and onto the ground inside the passenger side front wheel. After enough coolant has been expelled the engine will overheat.

To perform the head gasket test,
1. Remove all sparkplugs, fill the cooling systems expansion tank (with a 50/50 antifreeze mix type per owner’s manual) to just under the neck or seat for the pressure cap. You need to be able to see the surface of the coolant easily.
2. Rotate the crankshaft clockwise to bring the cylinder to be tested to TDC (Top Dead Center) at the end of the compression stroke (or ready to fire) piston at the top most travel, both valves closed. A wooden dowel 12” or so in length inserted into the open sparkplug hole resting on top of the piston will aid in finding Top Dead Center for the pistons highest position in the test cylinder.
3. Install a cylinder pressure test adapter into the sparkplug hole of the test cylinder, attach and apply shop air pressure 100-120psi with enough volume to maintain the pressure. If the air compressor cannot supply the volume of air necessary to overcome the pressure loss caused by worn piston rings or valves the test will be unreliable. Once you are confident the test cylinder is correctly pressurized?
4. View the coolant in the open expansion tank. If the head gasket is failing to seal the air pressure the air will be escaping as bubbles by way of the open expansion tank. You may want to test each cylinder for a minimum of 5 min or until you see the bubbles escaping. I am talking about a stream of bubbles not just one errant trapped bubble. In other words you will know what I am talking about when you see the test results with your own eyes.
5. Rotate the crankshaft to bring the next cylinder to TDC using the engines firing order as per sequence of the next cylinder to be tested. Test all the remaining cylinders as per the previous steps.

[Ranger]

Haymaker,
What else would you call it? The test is the same for valves, rings or gaskets. The outcome may vary and thus determine the problem but the test is the same.