Thermagasket

[rfishing]

Well here it is:

I decided to forget about the pressure testing, and just give this ThermaGasket a try. If ThermaGasket does not work, then I will pursue the other tests. After all I had 2 positive failed tests for Block Gases.

This morning I started engine, ran it until I thought the thermostat was open. I removed lower radiator hose, and let it drain. I did not let it drain completely (wanted to keep as much hot water in there as possible).

Next I used my 44 oz JackinTheBox plastic cup to premix parts A and B of Thermogasket material. Using a funnel, I poured the contents into the upper radiator hose. This surprised me, as I thought the stuff would just flow to bottom of radiator but instead it stopped up in the hose. I had to squeeze the hose to force it down into the radiator. Also some of it spilled out onto the thermostat housing, the hoses, my glove, etc., etc.. My glove hardened completely, and after seeing that cotton glove, I was impressed that if Thermogasket did not fix a head gasket, then nothing would. . I used hot water as suggested, and filled the radiator overflow tank. It only took one gallon, and I suspected the radiator hose was probably clogged up with thermagasket.

I ran engine at 2300-3000 rpms as suggested by RXauto representative. The temp climbed up to 223 in a minute so I let her idle back down to lower temp. The rep wanted me to do 8-10 minutes of continuous high rpms. It turned out that I was only able to perform about 3-4 minutes of those 2300 rpms, and about 25 minutes of idling in between. I remembered the radiator only took one gallon, so I stopped the engine let it cool to below 200 degrees and rechecked water level. Sure enough it took another 1/2 gallon water. I repeated the high rpms for about 2 minutes, let it cool down again and checked water level again. This time I could see level was just above the baffle plate inside the overflow tank. I added a little more water but overfilled to the cap.

At this point, I was not certain if my deviation from the proceedure was going to work (since I did not have smoke out tail pipe Rxauto varied the instructions to fit my situation). I called Rxauto and had to leave a message. Although I was not able to perform the 8-10 mins as directed, I decided to perform the next step anyway, a 15 minute drive at highway speeds.

I decided to take it to the main freeway, and go all up hill. During the drive RXauto rep called me (the chemist) and actually talked me through the drive. He instructed me to keep the rpms as high as possible at over 2000 rpms. He said, during the first 10 minutes especially it is important to keep the rpms high. Even driving around the neighborhood in low gear would be good. It is best to stress the engine out, get it expanded as much as possible. This allows Thermogasket to get into all the little cracks. During the drive my temperature never went above 202 and this is up hill. I pulled into a parking lot after driving 25 minutes, and popped the hood.

On the ground below the overflow hose was a drop of water. So I let engine cool down to below 190 degrees, and checked coolant level. To my surprise, it did not need 1/2 a gallon as it would have before using Thermogasket. I started pouring water into overflow tank, and realised that it was already full, only I could not see the level very well in the shade, so I wound up filling almost to the cap.

On the drive home, I decided to do the same route I previously used for testing, and excelerated but not as hard as the other day. Thinking that If I lost a half gallon of water again, then I would know the Thermogasket is not working. The test drive went well, temperature stayed below 205 degrees. When I got home I found a drop of water below the overflow hose again. I let engine cool to 150 degrees and checked water level. Surprise, it was above the baffle plate, about 2 inches below cap.

Now I am thinking, I was merely overfilling and this is the radiator cap doing its job equalizing, and that is why I am seeing drops of water. To prove my theory, I left the water level alone and took for the test drive as before. The Thermogasket guy told me, everytime I drive the car it will get better. He was absolutely right, I never knew this car would run like a sports car. Fast smooth shifts at over 4000 rpms each, and temp never went above 199. She ran like new. I got home checked and not a drop of water on ground, let it cool down to below 200, checked level of water and it was normal at the same place as when I left for test drive. Now when engine is hot and idling I can see a big difference, so there may have been a miss before using the thermogasket.

According to the Rep., if my coolant level stays the same, and it passes a block test, then the Head Gasket is fixed. I will probably do another Gas test in the near future to see. I dont want to be presumpteous but it would appear that Thermogasket has fixed my engine. I want to do a few more things before I jump for joy. Im already impressed to say the least.

1. Check coolant level in the morning cold, I am told this is the proper way, but have my doubts? Although if the level is below baffle plates inside overflow tank when cold (where I cant see), then I will test drive again before adding anything, and check to see the level when hot.

2. Repeat the Block Gas Test

3. Drive up and down the mountain at high speed (very steep incline increases to 4500 feet) and check for temperature, and coolant level afterwards.

I want to add some of my conversation with ThermoGasket inventer. He stated that the more I drive the car, the better it will fix it, and that Thermogasket loves high rpms. He originally designed Thermogasket to protect homes from fires, but modified it by one chemical ingredient to use on engines. It will protect over 1000 degrees. I asked if this was permanent? He responded with a story of a car he just worked on today. Someones car that he did 5 years ago with Themogasket, and the car is now overheating again. It turned out the thermostat went bad and not the thermogasket. He had many such stories, and told me about buying cars with blown gaskets for the cheapest price and fixing them up with thermogasket, even got a mercedes that way for 800 dollars. Told me about so many Norstar engines with blown gaskets my head was spinning. He claims that in the older Norstars like mine 94 and later, Thermogaskets works on them everytime. In my situation Thermogasket will be permanent unless the head bolts are stretched.

[addison_ii]

Good deal rfishing. It really makes me want to kick myself for not buying a clean 94ETC for 565.00 about 2 1/2 weeks ago because it had a bad headgasket.

[mtflight]

Hopefully this will continue to work, rfishing. Good luck.

[rfishing]

Update:

1. Water level this morning was just above the baffle plate inside Overflow tank. Took for a drive today local driving, still running great. Check coolant level when I got home (still hot) and its still good. I did notice some air pressure relieving as I took the Cap off.

So far so Good.

To be continued

[rfishing]

Need advice again. Here is the latest:

At 75 miles since installing ThermaGasket. I took car for hard drive, hitting 4500 rpms and up to 80 mph on some flat areas ran fine no problems with temps. Then found a steep incline that goes up for about one mile, I hit it really hard pedal to the medal with AC on it jumped up to 5500 rpms up to 80 mph. RPMs went up almost instantly to 5500, was so fast I had to let off before red lines. Temp got into the 220s, so I let up and cruised then temp shot up to 235. I basically coasted another 1 mile to let engine cool, and it came down to 216 before I pulled over. Sure enough there was a wet spot on the overflow hose, no signs of water on ground, or anywhere else. Rest of way home I took it easier and temps ran 208-214. Let it cool down in driveway, and checked while still hot and water level was low by about a quart.

This evening I took it back out on flat roads, not over 4000 rpms up to 80 mph. temp was only 192-203. I watched temp go up 223 while sitting idle, fan kicks on and temp goes back down to 210 before kicking off.

Not sure if I am hitting it too hard and that is why its overheating or what? I want to make sure it will go up steep inclines like today, before taking it up the mountain pass.

I thought something might be odd with the heater. Heat is blowing out top of dashboard, feet, and in rear passenger, but not out any of the front dashboard vents. Wife says, heat has always been that way. Might be normal?

[mtflight]

Originally Posted by rfishing

Need advice again. Here is the latest:

At 75 miles since installing ThermaGasket. I took car for hard drive, hitting 4500 rpms and up to 80 mph on some flat areas ran fine no problems with temps. Then found a steep incline that goes up for about one mile, I hit it really hard pedal to the medal with AC on it jumped up to 5500 rpms up to 80 mph. RPMs went up almost instantly to 5500, was so fast I had to let off before red lines. Temp got into the 220s, so I let up and cruised then temp shot up to 235. I basically coasted another 1 mile to let engine cool, and it came down to 216 before I pulled over. Sure enough there was a wet spot on the overflow hose, no signs of water on ground, or anywhere else. Rest of way home I took it easier and temps ran 208-214. Let it cool down in driveway, and checked while still hot and water level was low by about a quart.

This evening I took it back out on flat roads, not over 4000 rpms up to 80 mph. temp was only 192-203. I watched temp go up 223 while sitting idle, fan kicks on and temp goes back down to 210 before kicking off.

Not sure if I am hitting it too hard and that is why its overheating or what? I want to make sure it will go up steep inclines like today, before taking it up the mountain pass.

I thought something might be odd with the heater. Heat is blowing out top of dashboard, feet, and in rear passenger, but not out any of the front dashboard vents. Wife says, heat has always been that way. Might be normal?

I forget what year model yours is. On my 98, when you turn it on, it "thinks" for a second to decide whether you need hot or cold air as per your auto-climate control. If you require heat, it sends it out the bottom. If you require cold air, it sends it out the passenger vents on the dash. I think this avoids the "stuffy" feeling. There is a mode button that you can use to override its decision, and to choose your own distribution channel (face, face and feet, feet only, etc).

So I think that's normal.

The temp getting up to 230 then back down to 210 thanks to the fans, is a result of econo-mode. On my 98 there is no Econo mode... just AC, AC OFF. With the climate control system on, I can turn off the AC and it just blows air (Equivalent of Econo mode). Well, with the AC on, the driver side radiator fan comes on automatically so I seldom see any temperature above 213. That's what I was talking about on an earlier post.

Try the same cycle with the normal AC mode on (not econo mode) and your temperatures should be more stable.

[rfishing]

mtflight, Thanks for the advice. It is 94 Seville STS. I found some articles on here about AC operation and that helped clearify the vents thing. Heat appears to be operating as designed.

I emailed Rxauto tech support with this same message. Previously they told me to drive it hard. They already replied tonight. Said, but not that hard! They thought 5500 rpms was a bit much. Told me to just drive it normal for now. That the overflow tank may have been equalizing.

I still have my doubts about the cooling effects of just water as well. Perhaps if coolant were in there, perhaps it would not overflow? After all water boils at 204 up here, I have yet to find what a normal operating pressure would be inside norstar engine, so calculating exact boiling point is not possible. However, I did read about another engine says, normal is 7 PSI. If that held true with Norstar, then my boiling point would be 21 +204= 225. Provided it is boiling before pressure has chance to increase to 15psi relief pressure, that would explain why the temperature went up to 235 and I lost water out the overflow.

I probably should consider that this is not like having original equipment repair. I will repeat that mile up hill and see how it does with just normal speeds, and exceleration. After all, just to be able to drive the car at this point is a blessing. Id be willing to drive without AC off for mountain pass, signs say turn AC off anyway. If it passes the normal driving test, I will have no worries driving the car for local non-mountain trips as well.

To be continued:

[Ranger]

Originally Posted by rfishing

I still have my doubts about the cooling effects of just water as well. Perhaps if coolant were in there, perhaps it would not overflow? After all water boils at 204 up here, I have yet to find what a normal operating pressure would be inside norstar engine, so calculating exact boiling point is not possible. However, I did read about another engine says, normal is 7 PSI. If that held true with Norstar, then my boiling point would be 21 +204= 225. Provided it is boiling before pressure has chance to increase to 15psi relief pressure, that would explain why the temperature went up to 235 and I lost water out the overflow.

Plain water cools better than coolant but, it has no lubrication, anti-corrsion or anti-freeze capabilities, thus we have to add coolant.

Your cooling system is sealed so the altitude you are operating at is irrelavent. It is under what ever pressure the cap is rated at (or less), assuming it is operating properly. The cap will simply vent off excess pressure once the 15 psi limit is reached.

[sjwoodruff]

Originally Posted by rfishing

I still have my doubts about the cooling effects of just water as well. Perhaps if coolant were in there, perhaps it would not overflow? After all water boils at 204 up here, I have yet to find what a normal operating pressure would be inside norstar engine, so calculating exact boiling point is not possible. However, I did read about another engine says, normal is 7 PSI. If that held true with Norstar, then my boiling point would be 21 +204= 225. Provided it is boiling before pressure has chance to increase to 15psi relief pressure, that would explain why the temperature went up to 235 and I lost water out the overflow.

Quick lesson in thermodynamicas and temperature gradients...

1) An engine revving at 5000 RPM under load generates a great deal more heat across the cylinder walls than an engine idling down a level highway at 2000 RPM.
2) This heat is dissipated via the exhaust system, heat sinks like the block and also removed by the cooling system.
3) Pressurized coolant flowing through the water jacket has a finite ability to remove heat, as it contacts the high-heat areas for a very brief time.
4) To compensate for this, the water pump is directly driven off the engine, allowing for higher pumping rates as engine RPMs increase. More cool laminar fluid flow = greater cooling capacity within the water jacket.
5) In a closed system, under pressure (15 psi in our case), liquids retain higher levels of heat prior to boiling. Ethylene Glycol effectively raises the boiling point of water.
6) Hot coolant is pumped to an air-cooled radiator where air flow from driving (and/or supplemental fans) removes a portion of the latent heat from the coolant via cooling fins before the fluid is recirculated back to the heat producing areas and the process repeats.
7) The relief valve does not detect boiling. It opens when the system exceeds 15 psi above atmospheric to prevent system overpressurization. It doesn't care if you have water, coolant, a mixture of both or cookie dough running through the system.

In short - if you run the car harder more heat needs to be dissipated. The coolant is going to heat up and expand until the source of heat is reduced or the capacity to cool is increased. At highway speeds the capacity to cool is generally maxed out; so if you're running hard under load, you should expect the coolant temperature to increase a bit. Under these operating conditions in a closed system with full, or over-filled coolant, the system is designed to pressurize to 15 psi in very short order. At this point, if more heat is introduced into the system, the coolant will want to expand. Since it is restricted from doing so, the pressure can do nothing but increase. If this happens, the relief valve will open and you'll lose pressurized vapor and eventually some coolant to prevent over-pressurizing the system and its weak spots, mainly hoses and fittings. This is normal operation.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over a little coolant loss under the circumstances you've described. Most of what you saw was probably condensation from the vapor released at 15 psi. As the system cools, the relief valve should work in reverse, allowing air back into the system to fill the void and prevent a vaccum in the coolant loop.

[rfishing]

All this makes me wonder:

1. How often should I be checking coolant level?

2. Should I really expect to keep coolant level 2 inches below cap?

With this system, there is a plate inside the overflow tank. I cannot tell the water level below that plate, without adding fluids anyway. I do not trust the low level warning sensor, there have been times where I added over 1/2 gallon in the past without any messages. Where is it located?

[91TexasSeville]

Originally Posted by SteveThefolkie

I agree - if the headgasket is indeed blown then it's blown - "make it worse" - making a blown gasket worse is akin to making a corpse "more dead" - if it's blown then finding out in a controlled environment running a static test would be (to me) far better than looking in the rear-view mirror only to see a cloud of steam coming from the tailpipe (I've been there - it evokes a sinking feeling at best).

I ran a compression (not a leakdown) test on my Seville last night - compression was within 5% across all eight cylinders so I'm fairly sure that the head gasket is not the source of my cars woes - while a leakdown would have been preferable since I have a compression gauge and adapters but do not have a compressor - I went with what I had. Compression gauges are fairly cheap and easy to use (if you run a check, however, with the engine cold, don't expect to see full compression as full compression comes in concert with thermal expansion of components - a table spoon of oil down each cylinder before doing the test will - however - compensate for the thermal expansion to some extent - so if you see a low number at least you'll be able to eliminate ring blow-by).

If you're consuming coolant or water the spark plug in the offending cylinder should look quite different from the other seven.

Also keep in mind, if you are ingesting coolant and sending it through the exhaust system, you're buggering up your oxygen sensor - that said - I'd suspect an oxygen sensor code to come up on my diagnostics were that the case.

As for opening my own thread - as suggested - I did - but was directed to this thread which was already active - such is life.

Best of luck -

Steve

You mentioned that the compression test resulted in a +/- 5% across both cylinder banks but you did not indicate what your compression was, or I flat missed it. +/- 5% across all cylinders is excellent for a 14 year old car, but if the base compression was 130 +/- 5%, I would be a little concerned. See where I am going with this?

[rfishing]

Loosened the radiator cap, heard lots of air releasing this morning. Checked coolant level cold and appeared to be below the baffle plate. I started to add water, but after about 1.5 cups worth level is just above the plate. That is where I left it.

Drove the steep incline again at slightly faster then normal speeds never exceeded 3500 rpms. Highest temp going up that hill was 203. I repeated the drive and got same result with AC on. Got home checked the overflow hose and it was bone dry, no signs of overflowing.

I played with the heater and AC settings. AC seems to work good. Heat is coming out hot at top of dash window, passenger footwell, rear passenger, but is blowing ambient temperature at drivers footwell. Can anyone explain why that would happen?

At highest setting of 90 it is only blowing room temperature at drivers footwell. Outside temp was 65 degrees. Also, fan does not appear to be blowing much or at all until temp is set above 85 on the heat. AC does blow out the front vents very good.

I will check coolant level in the morning.

[SteveThefolkie]

Originally Posted by 91TexasSeville

You mentioned that the compression test resulted in a +/- 5% across both cylinder banks but you did not indicate what your compression was, or I flat missed it. +/- 5% across all cylinders is excellent for a 14 year old car, but if the base compression was 130 +/- 5%, I would be a little concerned. See where I am going with this?

Average was 186 PSI - I suspect some carbon buildup in the combustion chambers is contributing to the reading - however - it does make sense given that if I run regular gas the engine pings with vigor when I get on the gas - if I run 93 it's fine.

Steve

[rfishing]

Update:

Coolant level this morning is exactly same as yesterday before test drive. That is good news.

I searched on here, and found others with the no heat from drivers footwell area problem. They found the heater core to be clogged.

I am wondering if that is why at high rpms coolant is overflowing? Waiting to see if I should flush heater core now or wait till after the 400 miles of ThermaGasket.

[mtflight]

Originally Posted by rfishing

Update:

Coolant level this morning is exactly same as yesterday before test drive. That is good news.

I searched on here, and found others with the no heat from drivers footwell area problem. They found the heater core to be clogged.

I am wondering if that is why at high rpms coolant is overflowing? Waiting to see if I should flush heater core now or wait till after the 400 miles of ThermaGasket.

I'm afraid a flush would probably remove the Thermagasket.