Horn Inoperable
Cadillac
 

Cadillac Forums | Help Us Help You | Advertise | Cadillac Parts | Cadillac News | Cadillac Classifieds / (Old System)

Cadillac Technical Archive | Cadillac Dealers | Cadillac Reviews | Cadillac Dealer Reviews | Cadillac Vendors

CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18
Cadillac Seville / Cadillac Eldorado Forum Discussion, Horn Inoperable in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Good morning everyone. This morning I was driving to work and the car in front of me didn't move when ...
  1. #1
    JoeT1224's Avatar
    JoeT1224 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): 2000 Cadillac Eldorado Sport Coupe
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Harvey, LA
    Posts
    90

    Horn Inoperable

    Good morning everyone. This morning I was driving to work and the car in front of me didn't move when the light turned green. Naturally, I slammed on the horn but nothing came out. Horn will sound when I lock it with the remote but not when I hit it. Dash does not show any codes.


    Joe

  2. Remove Advertisements
    CadillacForums.com
    Advertisements
     

  3. #2
    Ranger's Avatar
    Ranger is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodstock Ill.
    Age
    66
    Posts
    73,318

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Sounds like a bad contact in or under the air bag.

  4. #3
    EcSTSatic's Avatar
    EcSTSatic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): 1999 STS - diamond white
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Wichita, KS
    Posts
    4,634

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Any of the other steering wheel controls not working? I am thinking clockspring

  5. #4
    N*Caddy's Avatar
    N*Caddy is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    36
    Posts
    6,405

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    No, in an Eldorado the horn contacts are not done trough the clock spring like the steering controls.
    The horn controls are done using the turning signal cam (there is a brass ring on it that the steering contact slides over as the steering turns.
    The clock spring is responsible for the airbag (originally) and in '96 the steering wheel controls were added to it and have no connection with the horn.
    There are 2 sensitive points in the horn controls:
    1. The turn signal cam slider contact
    2. The contacts (spring and spring clip) just behind the airbag.

    Unfortunately after '97 the PZM overrides were removed from the diagnose mode, you don't have the option anymore to monitor the inputs or force the outputs. From what you describe the issue is with the horn input (the wires between the PZM and the steering wheel).
    You can either use a jumper to ground the PZM horn input (test if the PZM input is operational) or an ohmmeter to test the horn contact (again at the PZM connector). In either case you need the diagram (from a '98+ Eldorado or a '98-'99 Deville).

    Found it…
    There is no horn input to the PZM, the horn contact is connected directly to the horn relay (pin B4)

  6. #5
    Ranger's Avatar
    Ranger is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodstock Ill.
    Age
    66
    Posts
    73,318

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Anyone got a picture of this "clock spring"? Can't picture it. either I am not familiar with it or I just use a different term.

  7. #6
    N*Caddy's Avatar
    N*Caddy is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    36
    Posts
    6,405

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Ranger the proper term is horn brush/spring ring assembly (the ring is the brass washer on the turning signal return cam).
    The clock spring is a banner cable enclosed in a plastic circular box (kind if like a measuring tape) that mounts around the steering shaft, is the very top piece if the assembly). This clock spring has a 2.5 turns each way freedom of movement, beyond that will brake the banner cable inside. You loose the airbag and the steering wheel controls (including lights) when that happens, but not the horn as the contacts are done differently (using the turn signal return cam). There are 2 different systems, the horn looks like is an old design preserved from the times when the horn was directly bolted to the switch (no relay involved) as it looks like it will take a whole lot more current than the relay controls will need.


    This is the clock spring:

    This is the turn signal return cam:



    See the small extension on the backside (that is towards the steering wheel). Inside is a spring and that's where the horn contact is attached (is a push+1/4 turn to release/lock). The clock spring sits on top of the cam, basically that extension top is flush with the clock spring once added on top. Note the big hole in the clock spring then the smaller hole, now you know how the two mount.

  8. #7
    rodnok01's Avatar
    rodnok01 is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): 98 DeVille, 97 DeVille d'Elegance
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    3,791
    Excellent explanation N*.
    Those turn signal cancel cams are a crappy design, get brittle and break if you look at them wrong then no horn.

  9. #8
    Ranger's Avatar
    Ranger is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): White Diamond '03 DHS (with DTS floor shift)
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Woodstock Ill.
    Age
    66
    Posts
    73,318

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Thanks. I'm used to seeing the lower one.

  10. #9
    N*Caddy's Avatar
    N*Caddy is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    36
    Posts
    6,405

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    In my case one of the 2 springs snapped and it was not canceling anymore in one direction.
    I had to spend something like $5 or $10 on just that spring on a junkyard as the GM dealer did not had it.
    I also replaced the whole cam (is in the $20 range) as my original one had a small casting defect near by that nipple and the horn contacts were not locking properly, basically instead of being locked in place it was held by the pressure of the airbag (very difficult to get it in place and stay there if I was removing the airbag).
    The springs were changed in '98, the '96 and '97 design has a black finish and is slightly larger than the '98+ design (which is a bit on the green ish side) but other than that are 100% interchangeable. I found my spring in a '99 DHS.
    As for the original cam it was pretty good (other than the defect), the brass slider washer was not scored (I was ~150K at the time). Oh yeah, the springs do score the cam 2 notches in time, mine was about 50%.
    I believe I posted some picture with how the guts look in the steering column.

  11. #10
    JoeT1224's Avatar
    JoeT1224 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Automobile(s): 2000 Cadillac Eldorado Sport Coupe
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Harvey, LA
    Posts
    90

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Thanks for all the input everyone. Sure enough, the horn came back after I posted my problem and (knock on wood) it's worked ever since.

    I've had issues with turn signals in the past-one side wouldn't cancel and then the signals died completely. Also, I used to have an issue with turning the wipers on-I would have to turn it to its fastest setting to get them to work. Many charitable donations were made to my Cadillac dealer on those repairs.

    Seems like the multi-function levers are pretty sensitive in these cars.

    Joe

  12. #11
    N*Caddy's Avatar
    N*Caddy is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    36
    Posts
    6,405

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Actually not, the steering column stuff is pretty darn reliable, other than that spring I never had any issue with anything, nor I hear others having issues. Plus most people (>60% I actually counted) make illegal turns w/o using the turning signal (lane changes, left/right turns) so probably these components in most cars last far more than in mine.

  13. #12
    jammgm's Avatar
    jammgm is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2011 CTS, 1998 Eldorado ETC Crimson Pearl, Bose System
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    West Haven, CT
    Age
    52
    Posts
    249

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    N*

    My Turn signal cam is broken which I found when removing my steering wheel to replace with a new one.
    How do you replace the cam? I removed the snap ring that holds down the clock spring but not sure what to do next. There's a warning on the clock spring indicating something about an alignment. I left this same message to you in the the other post in the link below.

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ring-help.html

    I found a replacement at the auto parts store but is says only fits GM cars from 74-96. Mine is a 98.
    I bought it anyway to compare to the old one once I remove it. If it doesnt fit, any idea where I can get a replacement?
    If it's a dealer item, I'll call Chris and Rippy.

    If you or anyone in the forum could share how to replace this, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks,

    Jim

  14. #13
    N*Caddy's Avatar
    N*Caddy is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    36
    Posts
    6,405

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Jim,

    You need to:
    1. Remove the steering wheel
    2. Remove the clock spring (do not turn it, better yet use tape to prevent it from spinning)
    3. Remove the steering wheel lock wheel. Is held in place with a small clip around the steering wheel shaft (you must push it in a bit to ease the clip release). There is a spring in the behind it (around the steering shaft).
    4. Remove the spring
    5. Remove the cam.
    Have a look >>>here<<<, last picture is how the steering column looks with the cam removed. You also have a picture of the cam (that's exactly the one you need). In Eldorado was used all the way up to '02.

  15. #14
    jammgm's Avatar
    jammgm is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2011 CTS, 1998 Eldorado ETC Crimson Pearl, Bose System
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    West Haven, CT
    Age
    52
    Posts
    249

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    N*
    For step 2 when you say not to turn it, is that the outer part of that moves around the center yellow piece?
    Also, what is the alignment about based on the note stamped on it? Do I need to worry about this?

    Regarding the new CAM, if the one I have is not the right one, where do you get them?
    Also, do you have to lubricate the new one? If yes, what do you use?

    Thanks for your help,

    Jim

  16. #15
    N*Caddy's Avatar
    N*Caddy is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 1997 Cadillac STS (BOSE w/AUX In, Massage Seats, URPAS, "Z")
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    36
    Posts
    6,405

    Re: Horn Inoperable

    Think how many times you can turn the steering wheel in any direction: 1.5 turns. That is also the movement of the clock spring, turn it more than 1.5 turns in either direction from the central position and you brake the banner cable inside.
    If you have the steering wheel dead straight the 2 arrows on the clock spring will line up, if is slightly off center the 2 arrows will also be off. What is important is DO NOT turn the steering wheel or the clock spring once the clock spring is removed form the car. Very simple reason, you may turn one or the other and when mounting back it will be one turn off center so first time you turn the steering wheel 0.5 turns in the wrong direction you break the clock spring.
    The best practice is start with the steering wheel dead straight and ensure will NOT move. Remove the clock spring (the arrows will mostly be in line) and tape it in that position.
    The cam must be lubricated with axle grease, see in the picture from the post I directed to.
    If you have an Eldorado, then the cam is the same '98+.
    '??-'97 Seville, '94-'99 Deville and '??-'02 Eldorado use THE SAME cam.

    Is such a small repair, we talk far too much about it considering what it is.

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting