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Cadillac Seville / Cadillac Eldorado Forum Discussion, Possible transmission trouble in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; ...I read the whole thread again... ...are there better news for your nice car...or any solution or updates right now...?...
  1. #16
    PontiacV8's Avatar
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    ...I read the whole thread again... ...are there better news for your nice car...or any solution or updates right now...?

  2. #17
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Maybe.... a semi-stuck cam chain tensioner? Since it only tends to happen during the engine slowdown/overrun, loading the parts in an unusual fashion?

  3. #18
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Well the weather is getting cold and the issue is slowly progressing (I guess as things are wearing out).
    So now it is easier to hear the noise when the car is cold, as in before it was only doing it only in the morning after sitting for 8h now it does it consistently after sitting few hours (like I said, I suspect combination or cold weather and wearing out), it also do it for longer.
    Also about the time I posted my last post, one very late evening when leaving from my parking spot at work (I had to reverse out) it kind of seem to me it slipped a bit. By that I mean the RPMs seem 200-400 more than normally (like leaving from a slight inclined spot, while the spot was dead flat).
    I started paying attention to it and the best I can describe, first time when leaving from stand still (fluids cold) it does not seem to me as eager to leave as when it gets warmer. Don't get me wrong, is not an engine hesitation (or power) it seem like it has a slight slip.
    Last night was the first time when I could definitely tell yes, definitely something is wrong. I started the car put it in reverse, parking brake popped up and nothing (mind you RPM on idle with cold engine is ~1000RPM) so I actually checked the parking brake light making sure is not on (it wasn't). I just slightly touched the gas pedal (maybe added 100 RPM) and it started moving. But you can definitely tell is not like stuck (rusted) breaks when is making a small pop and then moves, this time was progressive. Plus yesterday it was no rain earlier so no reason to get rust on the rotors while I was at work.
    I could tell something is not 100% since I drive the car for many years, you can feel something is up.
    Anyway after backing out, I put it in "D" and it did seem a bit sluggish, but not as in "R", I stopped and put it back in "R" (just to test) and it seem to be exactly like in "D", a bit sluggish but not like first time, this time with no brake no gas was moving (but again not like normally).
    It made the noise shifting from 1-st to second then 2-nd to 3rd and then 3-rd to 4-th. It seems as long as there is a positive RPM sleep in the torque converter (above a certain value) it does it. But it does not seem to be that exactly, it does seem to behave a bit strange. Now when cold (like last night) continued to make the noise almost all the time while in 2-nd and half way to 3-rd. If I release the gas (not necessarily all the way) it stops, if I go back quickly on gas, sometimes (if cold) I can hear the noise again for a short while.
    To be honest from the way I see it, it seem there is something that engages about 1 second before a shift and stays engages for a few seconds after the shift (longer if the engine RPM is higher).
    I have an 8 miles drive from office to my house, it involves about a dozen traffic lights (including a 1/2 mile HWY - 6.5 to 7-th mile into the drive). The noise is dying down after the first 5 miles (use to be after the first 2-3) and by the time I get home is no more (unless I really, really hammer it during a shift, when I can hear a bit of remanent noise, kind of like cymbals). It does sound to me awfully like being hydraulic not mechanical.
    Over the weekend I notice with the engine cold if I rev it past 2000 RPM I hear aproximarively the same whine while in P or N as long as I keep it there. It use to do it after revving past 2000 RPM while it was decelerating (which was hard to diagnose as it was doing once or twice at most and for ~2 seconds or so).
    For some reason at the time it did it I was unable to open the hood (I was moving the car out of the garage to do some work inside). Later, once I finished I got the car back in the garage and I was planing to snoop around but this time it didn’t do it. I tried the car in “D” and RPM up to 1400 for 1-2 seconds (as the FSM says) and NOPE no noise, and that is really when the torque converter has positive slip (1400 RPM) and nope it does no noise. This is why I say it seem to be when there is a certain slip in the torque converter but not all the time (I kind off feel is something else).

    One thing is for sure; time WILL tell what is wrong.

  4. #19
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Find yourself another unit....ASAP

  5. #20
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Sorry to hear that. As much as I love Northstar engines, I hate 4T80Es. Not engaging in gears sound awfully close to what I've experienced when my 4T80E was on its last legs. After that I started losing gears except second. But at this time period I was also losing trans fluid through the vent tube, even when there's nothing showing up on the dipstick, that might have been the issue.

  6. #21
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Well today is the day when the engine and transmission are coming out after 15.5 years and a bit 175500 Miles.
    The transmission whine is getting louder and consistent with every shift, it also seems to be there even after it gets hot (a bit less though).
    It still shifts and drives fine in spite the whine, the tranny shop is shaking the head, they told is something they never heard in these transmissions since they do transmissions (old shop). I had even second and third opinions and all shook their head. I was protecting it as much as I could avoiding accelerating even moderately, lifting the foot off the gas while shifting and driving strategically to avoid slowing down thus give a reason to up shift again.
    Jake is the man for the job (the only man I would trust), he will be dropping the subframe, separate the transmission and send it to the tranny shop.
    While the tranny is being rebuilt Jake will be doing all the bottom end seals (and replace the slightly wobbly harmonic balancer).
    Unfortunately I will be away in a business trip for the whole week but is great to have a friend that can help me with this.
    This car has to be in tip-top condition after next week, next summer is going again around US.

  7. #22
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Some plans changed today. I had the tranny shop doing one last test (they got their specialist to do the test drive) and they said is nothing they ever hear in a transmission ever and are not sure is the transmission (especially since it works fine). They said if it was a bearing it would make noise all the time not just when cold (not really, because metal expands - I would comment). If it was a pump cavitaion, from August until now the tranny will have been toasted. I did explained that I did not drive the car like some housewife I actually paid attention and ease off gas when shifting, so the time period means nothing...
    Regardless they said that in the stage it is now if they open the tranny even if something is wrong it may not be visible. So they recommended having Jake take one long look over the situation and have his opinion.
    We did the test drive today and sure enough the whine is there, but after driving over 100 miles to his place, the car was warm enough so the noise is only very low.
    He also (like everybody else) said that is not something heard before, and he also doubts is the transmission, yet he is not sure is what he suspected first (and I was suspecting too some point): lower chain tensioner.
    The big argument against is: if it were the tensioner the noise would be as long as the engine is spinning, but is not (yet is engine speed dependent). Ok let’s say it is only at a certain tension on the chain and this is given by the variation of the engine speed/load. Then we go to the next scenario.
    If it was something in the engine that is dependent with the load (say when is shifting the engine load is shortly changed), well it will do it during shifting and a bit after while there is some slippage.
    However (and this is why I say is in transmission) the whine starts just a bit before shifting, and that could only be in the transmission. Also the way the noise dies down is a bit non-natural (as you would expect in a assembly that slowly engages), sometimes it dies down slowly sometimes almost abruptly, is like something is starting to spin just before shifting and then it sleeps during shifting and is slowed down after shifting but in a controlled matter (not natural). Also could be line pressure evolution and something makes the whine in accordance with the line pressure. The line pressure is regulated by solenoids and something could be leaky.
    Regardless, tomorrow with a cold engine Jake will do the test and hear at it’s worst when cold (same noise just allot louder).
    Definitely the whine is coming from the front (right) side of the engine, somehow down towards the firewall. That’s where the chain drive assembly is or also the transmission.

    I am just so helpless, I am not able to diagnose it at all, I still believe is in the tranny, after months of living with it, I eliminated everything else.

    Recap:
    1. Engine RPM related whine during shifting (but seems to be starting just before shifting)
    2. The whine is much louder when cold.
    3. Is not in the belt drive assembly (noise still there whit the accessories belt off).
    4. It does it on upshifts or (as Jake discovered today) it also does it on heavy engine brake.
    5. General area of noise (to the best of my ability) seems to be front (driver’s side) of the engine maybe towards the firewall.
    6. The whine is present when engine is cold, shifter in park while reving over 2000 RPM (or while decelerating from over 2000 RPM) sometimes one sometimes the other, sometimes both….
    7. Sounds exactly like power steering pump (but maybe a bit louder at it’s worst).

    I hope Jake’s hunch is right, and is indeed the lower chain tensioner, and maybe I can’t feel the starting of the shift soon enough. At the beginning is enough engine load/rpm variation to change the tension on the chain (thus the pressure/angle of the chain against the tensioner) significantly to make noise but maybe not significant enough for me to feel it, so I perceive that the noise starts before the shift.

  8. #23
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    I think Harry's thread on his transmission was from the TCC in that it was eaten up causing a whine

  9. #24
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    In my case it was the inadequate viscous torque converter, which somehow failed and leaked its viscous clutch fluid into the transmission. Upon teardown, I could find the clear sticky fluid basically everywhere inside the transmission. Servos, oil pumps, valve bodies, side case, solenoids, everywhere. I also found that the fluid pressure control solenoid was gummed up with metal shavings and the clear fluid. The oil pumps did not have any metal shaving in them, but was packed with the clear fluid.

    I just want to say that be very cautious with this as you are doing right now, since it can be very frustrating at times like this, and be ready for the possible worse case scenario but don't be afraid of it. The good news is that everything can be repaired.

  10. #25
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Hey the car is with Jake now, if that's not reassuring then what is?

    The plan was he drops the engine and tranny to send the tranny to the shop and while they do the tranny Jake does the bottom end reseal (as the engine is out anyway).
    By that I mean, case halves gaskets, new oil manifold plate, oil pan gasket, oil filter adapter gasket, replace the harmonic ballancer, if the 2 steel lines running along the right (rear) bank are rusted have them replaced. Replace the 2 exhaust pipes between the exhaust manifolds and the cat (polish the inside if the “Y” pipe where the pipes are welded together).
    To do so you need to get to the chains and replace the tensioners anyway so that would be the perfect issue to have. I would save the couple of thousands dollars for the tranny, how sweet will that be!

  11. #26
    big greg is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Dang you sure are dumping a lot of money in your ride, kinda sounds like me lol

  12. #27
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    Ha! You have NO Idea how much money, time, and tinkering, has gone into N*'s Seville over the years.

  13. #28
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Transmission noise description:
    1. Noise idling or revving in park & goes away in drive, not moving, comes back while moving & stays constant with engine speed- chain sprocket bearings
    2. Noise in drive(louder while powerbraking) also constant w/engine speed, still and moving with no or little noise in park- T.C.
    3. Noise only while driving & changes w/shifts- planetaries
    4. Noise while driving constant with vehicle speed- diff

    If the noise is there in Park, unbolt the T.C., slide it back & run it.
    #1 is the most common noise I've heard in 4T80E's.

  14. #29
    N*Caddy's Avatar
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Well I have:
    1 (when cold) but while driving is not constant.
    2 not really
    3 yes noise while shifting or heavy engine brake
    4 not speed dependent, engine RPM related.
    So I guess none apply.


    As for expenses...the highest I went for one year total was ~$15K. A grand total over all the years I owned the car in the mid $40K (I am not including oil changes, gas and insurance obviously).

    And I ended up this week driving a very white, very base, all plastic Dodge Avenger rental down here in Greensboro NC.

  15. #30
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    Re: Possible transmission trouble

    Holy crap lol that's a small chunk

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