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Cadillac Seville / Cadillac Eldorado Forum Discussion, 2002 STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; I have read the post and I could not find anything about checking currant draw while attempting to crank if ...
  1. #16
    mike5514 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    I have read the post and I could not find anything about checking currant draw while attempting to crank if I missed it disregard this post.Mike

  2. #17
    ot1
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    If you look at the circuit, the PCM IGN fuse is 19, that supplies 12v to one side of the Start relay. I do have the 12v at the relay coil, the other side of the coil goes to the PCM. I'm going to buzz that this morning to make sure its not open, but I don't think it is since I have 1.2v on it.

    Yes I swapped relays in my first test, and also I tested the relay out of circuit, and it was good.

    Yes I tested the Start circuit breaker before I attempted to jumper the relay, remember the vehicle runs when jumpering the relay.

    That diagnostic flow/solution for P0615C that you posted is flawed since there is no mention of the Neutral Saftey switch condition and everybody knows you can't start a car in gear.

    So what about pin 41/C1? Is that the Neutral Safety switch input? Can someone please trace that out? Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike5514 View Post
    I have read the post and I could not find anything about checking currant draw while attempting to crank if I missed it disregard this post.Mike
    Please explain in more detail. Is this an input condition to the PCM? The vehicle does start and run, if Start1 (relay 36) is jumpered.

  3. #18
    mike5514 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    It does start so ignore my post 16.

    According to a my 98 fsm I have. Wires yel/blk of the start 1 and start 2 relay go to the out put of the pk3 theft deterrent module when the pk3 module grounds the start 1 and 2 relay coils energizes and the relay contacts close. The start circuit breaker then applies battery voltage to terminal s of the starter solenoid.

    The other side of start 1 and 2 are energized by the neutral safety switch with battery voltage when key is in start.

  4. #19
    mike5514 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    One more thing (I think) the PCM controls the injectors and will turn them off if it does not get the proper signal from the pass key module. So taking a guess and noting the car does start and run when you jumper start 1 relay I would assume the PCM is OK.

    I dont know what the voltage is to energize the relay coils but a guess would be 5 volts key on start.

  5. #20
    ot1
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    Mike,
    Its have a 2002 vehicle, there is no Start 2 relay, I don't think the wiring is the same as '98 wiring.

    Also I have discovered the MIL lamp is not working, and that I have a TPS code P0122 low voltage along with P0615C I don't know when these popped up since the MIL was not working. I didn't put the code analyzer on it right away. I can't find what the resistance should read for a test on the TPS in any previous posts. In another post > somewhere "under 40K" but that isnt very accurate.

    I was hoping someone would have a flow chart for the whole ignition circuit. Maybe it doesnt exsist in the shop manuals.

  6. #21
    Submariner409's Avatar
    Submariner409 is offline If it won't run, slap in a big stereo
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    ot1, Went through the GM shop manual - the ignition, power distribution, starter, injector, blah, blah circuits are on at least 8 line diagrams. A lot to scan.

    There's nothing wrong with Alldata, and in this case you might want to do a subscription for this car - there's simply a slew of information, diagrams, diagnostic trees, and Service Bulletins to work with.

    There's even the recall for "loss of ignition signal to PCM" which sent a LOT of 2001-2002 FWD Cadillacs back to the dealer.

  7. #22
    drewsdeville's Avatar
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    FWIW, anyone that already has the service manuals and doesn't want to pay a subscription fee to get the TSB's, they are out there for free. I, for one, use this site:

    http://bbbind.com/tech_database.html

  8. #23
    naif is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    start1.png
    start2.png
    start3.png
    start4.png

    Good luck!

    Maybe your IGN1 relay is marginal? Jumpering the start relay bypasses the IGN1 relay... but then again, power for injectors comes through IGN1 as well

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    Here's how theftlock works, for your car:

    Document ID# 703185
    2002 Cadillac Seville
    Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description and Operation

    The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system functions are provided by the theft deterrent control module. The VTD system prevents vehicle operation if a valid (learned) transponder PASS-Key®III (PK3) ignition key is not used to start the vehicle. The PK3 key has a transponder embedded in the plastic head of the key. The exciter is an antenna which is made up of wire coils which surround the ignition lock cylinder. The powertrain control module (PCM) enables engine starting when it receives a valid (learned) password from the theft deterrent control module via the class 2 serial data circuit. The components of the VTD system are as follows:

    The theft deterrent control module
    The powertrain control module (PCM)
    The ignition key (Transponder)
    The ignition lock cylinder
    The security indicator

    Theft Deterrent Control Module

    Vehicles with steering column mounted ignition switches have the exciter integral with the theft deterrent control module which is located within the steering column. Vehicles with instrument panel mounted ignition switches have exciter modules separate from the theft deterrent control module with the vehicle wiring harness connecting the 2. The theft deterrent control module for vehicles with instrument panel mounted ignition switches is located within the instrument panel. The theft deterrent control module can learn up to 10 keys (transponder values).

    The theft deterrent control module uses the following inputs, battery voltage, ignition switched voltage and ground circuit. The theft deterrent control module uses the following outputs, password exchange with the PCM (fuel enable/disable) via class 2 serial data circuit.

    When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder, the transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the exciter coils surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its value, which is received by the theft deterrent control module. The theft deterrent control module then compares this value to a value stored in memory and performs one of the following functions:

    If the transponder value is correct, the theft deterrent control module sends a class 2 message containing the module's enable password to the PCM.
    If the transponder value is incorrect, the theft deterrent control module sends a class 2 message containing a disable password to the PCM.
    If the theft deterrent control module is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value for one second (due to a damaged or missing pellet or a damaged exciter), it sends a class 2 message containing a disable password to the PCM.

    If the PCM is unable to communicate with the theft deterrent control module (loss of class 2 state of health) after the vehicle has started, the PCM will enter a fail enable state. The PCM sends a class 2 message requesting the instrument cluster to illuminate the Security Indicator. The vehicle will not stall or stop running. If the PCM is in a fail enable state when the ignition is turned to OFF, it will remain fail enabled until the next time the vehicle is started. If the PCM is fail enabled the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. The PCM will remain fail enabled until class 2 communication with the theft deterrent control module is restored.

    Important

    On some vehicles, if the VTD system is unable to read the ignition key transponder value after the vehicle has started, the VTD system will consider itself malfunctioning. The VTD system will enter a fail enable state and will command the security indicator to illuminate. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the VTD system is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the VTD system will remain fail enable until it is able to read a learned ignition key transponder value. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines.

    Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

    The PCM verifies that the password received from the theft deterrent control module via the Class 2 serial data circuit is correct. The PCM can learn only one enable password. If the enable password is correct, the PCM enables the starting and fuel delivery systems.

    The PCM disables the starting and fuel delivery systems if any of the following conditions occur:

    The enable password is incorrect.
    The system disable password is sent by the theft deterrent control module.
    No passwords are received - there is no communication with the theft deterrent control module.

    Important

    On some vehicles, if the PCM is unable to communicate with the VTD system after the vehicle has started, the PCM will consider the VTD system to be malfunctioning. The PCM will enter a fail enable state and will command the security indicator to illuminate. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the PCM is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the PCM will remain fail enable until communications with the VTD system has been restored. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines.

    The Ignition Key (Transponder)

    The ignition key for VTD equipped vehicles is a typical looking ignition key with a transponder located in the plastic end of the key. The transponder value is fixed and unable to be changed. The VTD system uses the ignition key transponder value to determine if a valid ignition key is being used to start the vehicle. There are approximately three trillion possible transponder values. There are no visible electrical contacts. The keys may be identified by the letters "PK3" stamped into the steel shank of the key. The VTD systems use the following types of ignition keys:
    Master Keys

    Master keys have a black plastic end for full access operation of the vehicle. Master keys may perform the following functions:

    Start the vehicle.
    Lock/unlock all of the door locks.
    Lock/unlock all of the storage compartments.

    Valet Keys

    Valet keys have a gray plastic end for restricted operation of the vehicle. Valet keys may perform the following functions:

    Start the vehicle.
    Lock/unlock all of the door locks.

    Ignition Lock Cylinder

    The ignition lock cylinder performs all of the functions of a lock cylinder on a non VTD equipped vehicle. The ignition lock cylinder for vehicles with VTD may be located on the steering column or on the instrument panel. In either location the exciter coils surround the ignition lock cylinder such that they are very close to the head of the key which contains the transponder pellet.
    SECURITY Indicator Operation

    The theft deterrent control module can command the instrument cluster to illuminate the SECURITY indicator only when the ignition key is in the ON position. The security indicator is a malfunction indicator and does illuminate during the bulb check when the ignition is turned to ON. If the PCM loses communication with the theft deterrent control module, the instrument cluster will also detect the loss of communication and will illuminate the SECURITY indicator. The SECURITY indicator can indicate both malfunctions (Indicator on steady) and tamper (Indicator flashing - indicating unauthorized operation). Under the following conditions the SECURITY indicator may be commanded to illuminate.
    SECURITY Indicator Stays Illuminated and Engine Starts

    If the theft deterrent control module was unable to measure the ignition key transponder value or the PCM lost communication with the theft deterrent control module while the engine was last running, the indicator will remain illuminated during subsequent ignition cycles. This is to remind the driver that the vehicle theft deterrent system will not be functioning until the problem is corrected. The vehicle is fail enabled and will start.
    SECURITY Indicator Illuminates when Engine is Running

    If the theft deterrent control module is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value or the PCM loses communication with the theft deterrent control module while the engine is running, the indicator will be illuminated. If the key is turned to OFF, the vehicle will be fail enabled and will start if the condition still exists at the next attempt to start the vehicle.
    SECURITY Indicator Illuminated and Engine Does Not Start

    The theft deterrent control module or the PCM has detected a problem with the theft deterrent system. The theft deterrent control module is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value. The System is in Learn Mode, refer to Programming Theft Deterrent System Components .
    SECURITY Indicator Flashes and Engine Does Not Start

    The theft deterrent control module has measured an incorrect transponder value when the ignition key is turned to the ON position. The transponder has not been learned by the theft deterrent control module. This is considered a tamper condition by the theft deterrent control module.
    Document ID# 703185
    2002 Cadillac Seville

    -----------
    Since you have been able to hotwire (jumper start relay) your car, fuel delivery is enabled -> not a theftlock problem.

  9. #24
    mike5514 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    Thanks drew great site.Mike

  10. #25
    ot1
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    Quote Originally Posted by mike5514 View Post
    One more thing (I think) the PCM controls the injectors and will turn them off if it does not get the proper signal from the pass key module. So taking a guess and noting the car does start and run when you jumper start 1 relay I would assume the PCM is OK.

    I dont know what the voltage is to energize the relay coils but a guess would be 5 volts key on start.
    its 12v on the relay not 5v, one side of the relay coil is ties to the PCM IGN fuse (19) other side goes to the PCM pin 44, and this is the signal that is missing.

  11. #26
    ot1
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    Thanks for everyone help, the site mentioned did not have sufficient wiring diagrams, I ended up ordering a service manual DVD from ebay, awaiting its arrival. Hope I don't get ripped off concerning its content.

    I let u know whatever I find.

  12. #27
    ot1
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    Due to a crappy GM design, a mouse is able to enter the intake air duct which points to the bottom of the car and in front of the air filter. He will then be able to enter the very large openings of the PCM housing and reside in there when the weather gets sub-zero This damn mouse chewed through 11 conductors as they exited the C1 and C2 connectors and ate about about an inch or more of each conductor, so now the wires are too short to do a simple butt splice with an insulated terminal.

    All GM would have had to do is install a blocking screen in the duct. Argument: well the mouse could eat any of the wiring under the hood, however having wire snack in your cozy PCM home, makes it more tastey.

    I obtained a DVD, not a CD from Ebay for $15, seems pretty comprehensive so far.

  13. #28
    naif is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    Ha... I found a mouse that had been living inside my subframe...

  14. #29
    Ranger's Avatar
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    I hate those meeces to pieces.

  15. #30
    Acc127 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

    I'm sure your situation is delt with but for other peoe with this problem it is probably a bad engine ground tto the frame. This would cause those exact symptoms. A way to check is by taking a heavy gauge wire and connecting one end to the engine and the other to the frame. This will tell you if that is the problem but you might need a heavier gauge wire to engage the starter.

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