Latest mechanic says, "it's not the head gaskets..."

QueensLacMan · #1 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 04:48 PM

So I took my overheating 96 STS to a new mechanic today. He [Fabian] looked at the car for a few minutes and admitted he didn't want to mess with Caddy overheating issues. However, he did look at the spark plugs and said it appeared as if coolant had burned on them. He said it could be a failed HG but that he wasn't 100 percent sure. So instead he told me to see Mohammed "the expert" on Cadillacs about 20 minutes away.

I go to see Mohammed, who of course has ZERO idea who the F Fabian is, and he laughs at the notion that my head gaskets are damaged. He said if they were the engine would be shaking or the car would drive funny or I wouldn't be able to drive 15-20 minutes over to see him. He looked at the whitish/silverish burn-looking marks on the plugs and said he didn't see anything to worry about. He said they looked normal. Huh? Two other mechanics told me my gaskets were probably blown. And this guy tells me the marks are nothing to worry about???

So he tells me the problem is the water pump. He said it's malfunctioning or whatever. He said $250 total for a new pump, belt and thermostat. Fine. I told him about the cylinder pressure test and he said it was unnecessary. He assured me it was not a blown head gasket.

He removed the original water pump and showed me how it was covered in coolant. He also pointed to the area all around and below the water pump and pointed out to me how it was all wet with coolant. He told me THAT's where my coolant was going. Not out the overflow. Not out the exhaust. But rather out in or around the water pump area.

He fixed it. I drove around the block a few times with the AC full blast and everything was great.

On the drive home however I noticed that once I stepped on the gas (kind of floored it in second gear - to be honest) that the temperature shot up pretty high.

My questions are:

1. How much should the thermostat fluctuate? Should it always be dead smack in the middle, or can it go up a little and drop a little as you drive the car harder?

2. I have a new water pump and new thermostat. The radiator is new. There are no leaks. Is there anything else that can be causing my car to overheat?

Type of coolant? Lack of coolant tabs (which this new mechanic told me is BS and unnecessary)?

Don't know. Anything else to check?

I'll drive the car into work tonight and see how it goes.

Cheers.

mrnuke7571 · #2 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:09 PM

As much as I WANT you to be ok without needing the Headgaskets looked at, Mohammed is wrong.

"I go to see Mohammed, who of course has ZERO idea who the F Fabian is, and he laughs at the notion that my head gaskets are damaged. He said if they were the engine would be shaking or the car would drive funny or I wouldn't be able to drive 15-20 minutes over to see him. He looked at the whitish/silverish burn-looking marks on the plugs and said he didn't see anything to worry about. He said they looked normal. Huh? Two other mechanics told me my gaskets were probably blown. And this guy tells me the marks are nothing to worry about???"

A car can drive perfectly FINE without smoke, without shaking or drive funny.
My olds cutlass had a leaky headgasket, and was perfectly fine, other than the overheating and slow loss of coolant that I couldn't find.
One Cylinder was puffing coolant when revved past 3K so the sprak plug was whiteish. Had nothing to do with the waterpump.

cadillac_tech · #3 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:34 PM

Do the shops in your area have emissions analyzers? We check for hydrocarbons coming from the coolant tank. With the engine hot, the cap off, brake torque the engine and check for this. Bad head gasket or pulled threads will cause exhaust to be forced through the cooling system. There is also a tool called block check that tests for this.

**Ranger** · #4 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:35 PM

Quote:

So he tells me the problem is the water pump. He removed the original water pump and showed me how it was covered in coolant. He also pointed to the area all around and below the water pump and pointed out to me how it was all wet with coolant.

Was Mohamed smoking some self rolled cigarettes that where twisted at the ends? The water pump is inside the cooling system. It pumps coolant. It is surrounded by coolant. Of coarse it is covered in coolant.

Quote:

Is there anything else that can be causing my car to overheat?

Type of coolant? Lack of coolant tabs

No.

Quote:

1. How much should the thermostat fluctuate? Should it always be dead smack in the middle, or can it go up a little and drop a little as you drive the car harder?

If by "thermostat" you mean temp gauge, mine sits rock solid at 12:00. Fluctuation (if any) should be minor.

cadillac_tech · #5 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:36 PM

By the way, does it truly overheat or the needle just go high?

**Ranger** · #6 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cadillac_tech

Do the shops in your area have emissions analyzers? We check for hydrocarbons coming from the coolant tank. With the engine hot, the cap off, brake torque the engine and check for this. Bad head gasket or pulled threads will cause exhaust to be forced through the cooling system. There is also a tool called block check that tests for this.

Isn't that going to cause it to boil? Don't you want to do this with the engine cold?

cadillac_tech · #7 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:45 PM

It will definitely boil over and make a mess. However, holding the tip of the probe just above any coolant, you would see HC's climb.
DON"T brake torque the engine too long! We wouldn't want to overheat the torque converter.

**Playdrv4me** · #8 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 05:59 PM

Me thinks its the headgaskets. Why did you just pay 250.00 for a repair that you didnt know for sure was necessary and NOT have the tests done as suggested? You only have yourself to blame for that.

rockybalboa11 · #9 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 06:14 PM

hey, my mechanic says the same thing!

but he didn't get any money from me :-P

misfit6794 · #10 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 08:16 PM

My car ran perfectly with the headgaskets blown, expect for the overheating. No loss in power, no shake, nothing. I'm curious as to why your mechanic only charged you 250 for a water pump. It definetly is a little more involved to change that out on a northstar than other engines. Its not like a conventional water pump, all you change out is the actually part that spins, not the entire housing. I think its time to take your car to a cadillac dealership, you couldn't pay me to take a car as complicated as a caddy to some schmuck who thinks a water pump shouldn't have coolant on it. Hopefully for your wallet tho that was the problem, you should find out shortly.

QueensLacMan · #11 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 08:30 PM

I should have described the water pump situation better. With all of the hoses on tight and everything in place, the whole area behind, around and below the water pump was wet with what my mechanic said was coolant. It was all sticky-looking as if coolant had wet the area and dried repeatedly over and over again.

The water pump itself was all rusted and in many places the mechanic scraped off layers of dried up coolant. Is that normal?

Play - you're right that I should have gotten a block test or cylinder pressure test done before doing any work. I felt that way at the time and I mentioned it to him. It's just that he seemed so sure this wasn't a head gasket issue. Another mechanic had sent me to him and told me he was an "expert" on Cadillacs. I saw this mechanic use tools I've never seen other mechanics use. He told me stuff about my car that other mechanics didn't. Maybe I just really wanted to believe it wasn't a headgasket so I dismissed the idea of doing the tests. But this guy really gave me the impression he knew what he was talking about. And by the looks of the water pump, and all of the guck below and around it, everything seemed to make sense. With all that said, you're right... I should have first spent the money to make sure it wasn't the gaskets.

The car does overheat. It's not just the temperature gauge acting wacky.

It's just inconsistent. I drove into work tonight and the gauge marker didn't move away much from 12 o'clock. It was fine. But I was also driving without the AC on and taking it easy (no more than 60 on the freeway).

But when I got into my car around 7 pm and started it, the gauge marker started out close to 12 o'clock. It had been parked and turned off for two hours since I last drove it. Shouldn't it have cooled down more?

So, one second the car drives fine. I can get in her today and drive 20 miles and the marker might not move much... or I can drive 2 miles and watch it go up.

It's looking and doing better since the water pump was replaced... but still, I didn't like seeing how that marker spiked when I tried to run her a little hard.

We'll see tomorrow. I'll go back and get those tests done just to have peace of mind.

But hypothetically speaking, if the tests show that the gaskets are not to blame, what the heck could it be????

Thanks again guys.

**Ranger** · #12 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 08:43 PM

Quote:

I'm curious as to why your mechanic only charged you 250 for a water pump. It definetly is a little more involved to change that out on a northstar than other engines.

Actually is is easier than conventional water pumps.

Quote:

The water pump itself was all rusted and in many places the mechanic scraped off layers of dried up coolant. Is that normal?

No, that is not normal. With your better explanation, it sounds like maybe he does know what he was doing. Have you checked the purge line to be sure that it is clear and flows coolant?

QueensLacMan · #13 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 10:01 PM

I don't believe he checked the purge line, but I'm not exactly sure where that is.

What he did do when refilling the coolant was detach that main hose that runs across in front of the engine. He poured coolant down one end of the hose until it came out of the reservoir. Then he attached the hose on the right side of the engine, and removed it on the left side (part closest to reservoir) and proceeded to pour coolant down the hose. I think he did this to check for obstructions in the main hoses, and get coolant into the engine prior to starting it.

About the purge line, I'm not sure he looked at that. That's something I can do, right? I'll bring it back tomorrow and have him check it out. I guess I should also have him do the cylinder pressure test to rule out the HGs.

For some reason, I just got the impression from this guy today that my head gaskets aren't failing. He seemed so sure of himself and what he was doing. I told him about my experiences with other mechanics and he just called all of them lazy and money-hungry. The way he worked, he was really conscientious about everything he was doing. Very meticulous. Not to sound corny, but in a way it was artistic. The guy was really set on doing everything perfectly. And I know for a fact he charged me exactly what each part cost him. To me, that says a lot. Any other mechanic I've dealt with has tacked on at least $50 to the original cost of every part.

So... I'll check the purge line. Thanks Ranger.

**Ranger** · #14 (**permalink**) 06-05-07, 10:09 PM

The purge line is the 3/8" line that attaches to the side of the surge tank near the top. With the engine idling, pull that line. If it discharges coolant, quickly plug it back on, it is OK. If not, rev the engine a little. If you still get no flow, shut it down, locate and clear the obstruction. If that line is clogged, it can cause overheating.

BigJon · #15 (**permalink**) 06-06-07, 12:13 AM

i had the same problem..... replace the water pump rad, and it turns out it was a head gasket... a bolt pulled and it didnt even over heat and i notice atfer getting the motor out and having to ship it out to being remachined to me it was worth it cuz i love my caddy it came out to 3000$ for me to get it done... so... most likely it is the head gasket maybe it not but for me it was...