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Cadillac News, Concepts, Future Models, Rumors and more Discussion, Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ? in Current Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; The F150 you mean? They are quiet and drive ok, but their interiors are still cheap and their steering is ...
  1. #31
    Zorb750 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    The F150 you mean? They are quiet and drive ok, but their interiors are still cheap and their steering is numb.

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    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorb750
    The F150 you mean? They are quiet and drive ok, but their interiors are still cheap and their steering is numb.
    a lot of gm's interior wasn't that much better until recently

  3. #33
    Zorb750 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Ha. Even with their improvements, most GM are just a notch better than most Ford, i.e. still junk, but I understand what you mean.

  4. #34
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorb750
    To the next IDIOT who mentions a 5.4 liter Northstar, go back and read up on piston speeds and how they relate to high end torque and to an engine's ability to handle high RPM, which the Northstar does very well. Do you want an to put a truck engine in a Cadillac? That's what you would be doing. Go back to your FORD truck on your farm shoveling manure and leave the civilized automobiles to people with brains. Anyone who says any Ford truck is civilized, you can go with him. Might I remind you that the Excursion Limited has leaf spring front suspension.
    so what type of engine did the Y2k Cobra had in it?5.4Litre.oh and what about the 05-06 Ford GT? you say that's a truck engine too? you need to read alittle bit more before you comment on Fords engines,because obviously you don't know what you're talking about.I own a 2005 F150,and i also currently own a 94 Cadillac.like it or not,Cadillac needs to build a bigger motor than 4.6litres.the current 4.6Litre V8 engine needs more cubic inches.

  5. #35
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haleykeek
    so what type of engine did the Y2k Cobra had in it?5.4Litre.oh and what about the 05-06 Ford GT? you say that's a truck engine too? you need to read alittle bit more before you comment on Fords engines,because obviously you don't know what you're talking about.I own a 2005 F150,and i also currently own a 94 Cadillac.like it or not,Cadillac needs to build a bigger motor than 4.6litres.the current 4.6Litre V8 engine needs more cubic inches.
    i don't think you understood about the focus of the engine in a luxury car. It's not all about engine output rather it's more about characteristics.
    Idle quality, silky smoothness....
    All the cars you've compared so far has been sports car, and all cars in cadillac line up doesn't focus on being sporty rather luxurious.

  6. #36
    Zorb750 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    BMW gets 360HP out of 4.8 liters with room to grow. They also get 394HP out of 4.9 liters, which can become about 440 with a few modifications, and 470 HP with a Dinan S2 kit. Displacement displacement displacement... so overrated.

    Maserati gets 390HP out of 4.2 liters... Hmmm... Now that's Displacement!

    370 out of 3.2 if you can live with turbos.

    Ford's 5.4 in the Cobra R (the ONLY cobra with that size engine) doesn't do that. What the Ford does do is vastly underperform, compared to its hype, and fly to pieces on the drag strip. Hmmm... Maybe those piston speeds were a concern after all, even though they only turn 6000 RPM. Using that engine on the Mustang also mandated the use of that ugly domed hood on the R's.

    The Ford GT's engine has no refinement at all. To address strength concerns, it has totally different connecting rods, pistons, and crank - all of which drives the cost of production to a level that a "standard" car engine cannot have. Also, am I the only one who has seen the smoke coming out of their tailpipes at low throttle on multiple occasions? I guess that engine isn't so hot after all...

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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorb750
    BMW gets 360HP out of 4.8 liters with room to grow. They also get 394HP out of 4.9 liters, which can become about 440 with a few modifications, and 470 HP with a Dinan S2 kit. Displacement displacement displacement... so overrated.

    Maserati gets 390HP out of 4.2 liters... Hmmm... Now that's Displacement!

    370 out of 3.2 if you can live with turbos.

    Ford's 5.4 in the Cobra R (the ONLY cobra with that size engine) doesn't do that. What the Ford does do is vastly underperform, compared to its hype, and fly to pieces on the drag strip. Hmmm... Maybe those piston speeds were a concern after all, even though they only turn 6000 RPM. Using that engine on the Mustang also mandated the use of that ugly domed hood on the R's.

    The Ford GT's engine has no refinement at all. To address strength concerns, it has totally different connecting rods, pistons, and crank - all of which drives the cost of production to a level that a "standard" car engine cannot have. Also, am I the only one who has seen the smoke coming out of their tailpipes at low throttle on multiple occasions? I guess that engine isn't so hot after all...
    how many engine failures in the 7 series?

  8. #38
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Guys:

    The new BMW M6 will come out in V10 power. Evidence that the refinement of the V10 platform is possible. To be straight with you I don't recommend that Cadillac produce a V10, maybe introduce a 4.4 Northstar normally aspirated for increased durability and to showcase a better packaging for a less costly V8 Cadillac variant.

    With GM's financial woes, I want to see them make the most of what's already in the parts bin. I believe that the now defunct Olds Aurora had a 4.4 Northstar? Were there as many problems with it, as with the earlier 4.6 Northstars?

    If Cadillac were to have engines warranted for 100K miles, this would go along way toward making Cadillac a quality brand. It doesn't seem that impossible to do as KIA is offering 100K warranties, and selling cars faster than ever!

  9. #39
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PAULSTSMAN1
    Guys:

    The new BMW M6 will come out in V10 power. Evidence that the refinement of the V10 platform is possible. To be straight with you I don't recommend that Cadillac produce a V10, maybe introduce a 4.4 Northstar normally aspirated for increased durability and to showcase a better packaging for a less costly V8 Cadillac variant.

    With GM's financial woes, I want to see them make the most of what's already in the parts bin. I believe that the now defunct Olds Aurora had a 4.4 Northstar? Were there as many problems with it, as with the earlier 4.6 Northstars?

    If Cadillac were to have engines warranted for 100K miles, this would go along way toward making Cadillac a quality brand. It doesn't seem that impossible to do as KIA is offering 100K warranties, and selling cars faster than ever!
    1. bmw v10s are known to be rough espeically on idle but those are near race engines
    2. Cadillac already has a v12 engine that showed up in concept and v10 that was developing has been scraped according to rumors

  10. #40
    Zorb750 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil_concours
    how many engine failures in the 7 series?
    The 4.8's in the newer 7 series. It's not known how well it will do, but it's been in the X5s for two years now with no trouble. The 4.4 V8s are very reliable, but only produce about 325 HP, and around 330-340 torque in their last generation. The older generation's 282HP 314-324 ft-lbs (depending on year, changed in 1999 to 324)... An actual engine (not electronic sensor) failure on the 5.4 V12 (e38 style) or 6.0 V12 (e65) is virtually unheard of. BMW's been known to replace failed 5.4s out of warranty, as they regard their V12s as being pretty much a work of art. Most 6.0s should still be under warranty (2002 intro), but I've never heard personally of one failing either way.

    The 4.9 V8 engine I was talking about though is the S62 engine in the e39 M5. I know BMW calls it a 5 liter engine, but it's much closer to 4.9 than 5.0.

  11. #41
    Zorb750 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PAULSTSMAN1
    Guys:

    The new BMW M6 will come out in V10 power. Evidence that the refinement of the V10 platform is possible. To be straight with you I don't recommend that Cadillac produce a V10, maybe introduce a 4.4 Northstar normally aspirated for increased durability and to showcase a better packaging for a less costly V8 Cadillac variant.

    With GM's financial woes, I want to see them make the most of what's already in the parts bin. I believe that the now defunct Olds Aurora had a 4.4 Northstar? Were there as many problems with it, as with the earlier 4.6 Northstars?

    If Cadillac were to have engines warranted for 100K miles, this would go along way toward making Cadillac a quality brand. It doesn't seem that impossible to do as KIA is offering 100K warranties, and selling cars faster than ever!
    The BMW V10's a little on the coarse side. It's more refined than the Dodge Viper's engine, but it's still not as smooth as the BMW V8 or any Northstar engine. I think though that if you are buying the M5 or M6 for what it really is, you won't care about a slightly less refined engine. It produces more than enough power to justify it, especially out of its small size. (507HP out of 5 Liters)

    The Oldsmobile has a 4.0 liter version of the Northstar V8, not 4.4. Producing a NA version of the Northstar 4.4 would be silly.

  12. #42
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorb750
    BMW gets 360HP out of 4.8 liters with room to grow. They also get 394HP out of 4.9 liters, which can become about 440 with a few modifications, and 470 HP with a Dinan S2 kit. Displacement displacement displacement... so overrated.

    Maserati gets 390HP out of 4.2 liters... Hmmm... Now that's Displacement!

    370 out of 3.2 if you can live with turbos.

    Ford's 5.4 in the Cobra R (the ONLY cobra with that size engine) doesn't do that. What the Ford does do is vastly underperform, compared to its hype, and fly to pieces on the drag strip. Hmmm... Maybe those piston speeds were a concern after all, even though they only turn 6000 RPM. Using that engine on the Mustang also mandated the use of that ugly domed hood on the R's.

    The Ford GT's engine has no refinement at all. To address strength concerns, it has totally different connecting rods, pistons, and crank - all of which drives the cost of production to a level that a "standard" car engine cannot have. Also, am I the only one who has seen the smoke coming out of their tailpipes at low throttle on multiple occasions? I guess that engine isn't so hot after all...
    OK, let's see now here. Since engines don't actually make horsepower, they make torque, and the single easiest method to produce torque is displacement, I don't know what you're getting at. Here's one for you. 300 ft. lbs of torque at 2000 rpm is only 114 horsepower. 300 ft. lbs of torque at 7000 rpm is 400 horsepower. If you build a high-revving engine, you can make gobs of horsepower. The Escalade needs a truck engine. That's not even a discussion, that's just a fact. A Maserati can have a 4.2 liter engine that produces 390 horse. What Maserati needs a lot of low-end torque when it weighs so little? The only reason the BMW 5 liter can make 507 horses is because it revs to the moon.

    Brian

  13. #43
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90Brougham350
    OK, let's see now here. Since engines don't actually make horsepower, they make torque, and the single easiest method to produce torque is displacement, I don't know what you're getting at. Here's one for you. 300 ft. lbs of torque at 2000 rpm is only 114 horsepower. 300 ft. lbs of torque at 7000 rpm is 400 horsepower. If you build a high-revving engine, you can make gobs of horsepower. The Escalade needs a truck engine. That's not even a discussion, that's just a fact. A Maserati can have a 4.2 liter engine that produces 390 horse. What Maserati needs a lot of low-end torque when it weighs so little? The only reason the BMW 5 liter can make 507 horses is because it revs to the moon.

    Brian

    Half way there...

    HP = Tq x Rpm / 5252

    1Hp = 550 Tq / Second

    Higher RPM doesn't always equal more horsepower. A high HP @ high RPM engine CAN make high Torque at low RPM.

    Here's M5's engine:


    360 nm = 265.5 ft-lbs
    380 nm = 280.2 ft-lbs
    400 nm = 295 ft-lbs
    420 nm= 309.7 ft-lbs
    440 nm= 324.5 ft-lbs
    460 nm= 339.3 ft-lbs
    480 nm= 354 ft-lbs
    500 nm= 368.8 ft-lbs
    520 nm= 383.5 ft-lbs
    540 nm= 398.3 ft-lbs
    This isn't a low RPM torque monster, but it provides more than enough to accelerate its largish midsize car (4000 pounds anyway) to 60 in about four and a half seconds.

    Think about this one... Audi's RS6 engine (4.2 turbo) produces 415 ft-lbs @ 1950. I know... You're going to cry that it's turbocharged, but the same rules apply to a turbo engine for torque, HP, and RPM. It would be the same if it were a basic eight liter engine doing the same. Same rules to the same game.

  14. #44
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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorb750

    Higher RPM doesn't always equal more horsepower. A high HP @ high RPM engine CAN make high Torque at low RPM.
    It's quite unusual. It's 99% of the time low-end torque or high-end horsepower, not both. You're right that a high HP engine can make decent low-end torque, the torque-curve from the LS2 proves that, but the argument really can't change, it's really got to be either torque down low or horsepower up high.

    Brian

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    Re: Cadilac V-10 or V-12 ?

    Recently I heard about a technology called direct injection, some tech types have mentioned this may enable higher horsepower, more economical fuel management.

    My Northstar is plenty powerful, but I think it should be more refined perhaps balance shafts, or since it's an overhead cam, perhaps "blueprinting." The Northstar has a 10-15year additional life cycle, perhaps some derivaive engines might come out of it. For a upcoming small car, or slightly downscale CTS a new overhead Cam V4, V6. For a top of the line vehicle a premium V12, option. Even though the Sixteens engine garnered kudos, in the fuel starved future, developement costs/EPA Certification wouldn't justify a V16 production.

    More cost effective Transmission redesign, 7 speed, and variable gearing in smaller powerplants would help to make the cars more fuel efficient and fun to drive.

    GM should look to what they have and improve the line to make it stronger. All of what I have recommended here would also serve to augment the other GM lines also.

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