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Cadillac News, Concepts, Future Models, Rumors and more Discussion, About the name of deville replacement? in Current Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Hmm, so what's the deal with the Escalade? Why not change it to the ERX? They must not want to ...
  1. #61
    Incendiary is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Hmm, so what's the deal with the Escalade? Why not change it to the ERX? They must not want to lose the image and appeal currently associated with the name. The fact that they'd abandon the Deville name means they must think it has negative equity associated with it. Change to DTS is a way to keep the Deville association while still "fooling" others who aren't as "in the know" about the car market.

    In any case, I think if they're going to keep Escalade as a name, they might as well keep the Deville name. The 2006 DTS will have a different look to it, similar to the edgy A&S them the CTS and STS do, but it's still not going to have made the transition to the level of German-fighting vehicle that the CTS and STS have. It's still priced lower and is FWD and is meant to retain the older market that the current Deville tends to attract.

    Anyway, I'm a fan of the way Cadillac has remade itself, and I think they're on the right path, but if/when they do come out with an S-class/7-series fighter, whether that will be the 2010 DTS or not, in a way I hope they don't completely abandon the market that has so faithfully kept the brand afloat during the past 20 or so years. There are still people in this country that prefer large FWD cars that are reasonably luxurious and yet priced around $50k. If Cadillac abandons this market, I guess it'll be time to buy Lincoln/Ford stock, as Town Car sales will go through the roof...

  2. #62
    Robert Brandtjen is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by fastball
    Believe me, I don't want to come off as an insensitive snob. I really do understand the history and panache behind the wreath and crest. I also understand that the last time Cadillac really ruled the luxury market was the 1950's. Let's just forget the imports for a second. What sort of industry leading innovations did Cadillac bring about pre-1960. Tons. All the way back to the first electrically cranked motor in 1912. Of course they had the first auto headlamp and climate control systems. I belive cruise control was first offered on 1959 Cadillacs, which also had impressive style (I think the 59's are classic, timeless, and nothing short of a Ferrari is as beautiful). And they were built better than any car in the world at that time.
    Umm- you must be what? 15? My uncle had a 1967 Eldorado in 1967, no finer production car anywhere in the world. Came with FWD as well, as far as I know, it was the first in the world, at least in luxury models. In the 50's, they had automatic hi-beam adjustments and their radios were way ahead of even Rolls Royce (which still uses a Caddy Transmission) right into the 1960's. My grandfather owned the first Caddy dealership in the upper midwest and drove every high end model they ever produced- gave my dad a brand new 46 Eldo as a HS graduation present. My dad gave my mom a new Eldo the year I was born- 1959. Still my favorite all time car model. Caddies had the first automatic transmissions as well as the first air-conditioning systems- not to mention hard top convertibles. Power brakes, power steering, etc.

    Into the 1960's, however, Cadillacs were still luxurious, but stopped pushing the engineering boundaries. Innovative products relied less on gadgets and gizmos (like a tellescopic steering wheel) and more on real performance and technology. Overhead cam engines, 4 wheel independent suspensions, and proper weight ballance were already technologies available to the passenger car production segment, but Cadillac passed on that, offering heated mirrors and power trunk lid pulldown motors.
    In the 1960's. Americans, for the most part, laughed at little European cars and wouldn't even consider driving a ricer. Our freeways were wide open and for the most part went in straight lines from one end of the country to the other. What we had were big families and even bigger cars to haul them in. Anything small like a goat was considered a "kid's" car and a man was 21 years of age. People still drove great distances all the time and what you wanted was ride that floated. I have owned two Porsches in my day- they are the epitome of "fast and furious" and are not fun driving on a 2,000 mile journey, though I did do a 30,000 mile road trip in a 911 (1987-1988), it was a tight, bumpy ride. I would much rather do it in an STS. In the 1960's, sports cars rode like crap. And their interiors left alot to be desired- I know, I was around then.

    By the 80's, the directions were clear and defined. If you had (at the time) 25k to put on a car, and you cared less about driving and more about style, you bought a Cadillac. But if you had that cash but wanted to really enjoy driving and handling your car, you went to MB or BMW. Where the emphasis was on independent suspensions, 4 wheel disc ABS brakes (I should add MB had them standard on all models by 1985), tighter turning radii, overhead cams, and just a whole different dynamic of driving. The photograph I still remember to this day from Road and Track when they put the 1985 Eldorado against a Mercedes 560 SEC. In the slalom, the Eldorado pulled about 20 mph slower than the MB. But that was just half of it...... even at 20 mph slower, on one of the turns, the front inside tire was toed in till the rim scraped the pavement, and the rear outside tire was about a foot off the ground. Smoke everywhere, and the caption read simply "No camera tricks, folks."
    Again, the Eldo was not built to slalom, it was built for the American Hi-way which has no hairpin turns to speak of. But by 1985 GM had other problems. Not the least of which were labor unions- who deliberately began sabotaging GM vehicles in the late 70's during contract talks. higher gas prices (gas in 1969 was $.19/gal not .69) which jumped to $2.00/gal in the early 1980's. They also had an image problem which was both real and imagined. The imagined was that anything AMerican made was bad and anything foreign made was good- pure bunk. The other that was real, was that the Caddy had become associated with low brow pimp/gangsters and no self respecting member of the middle/upper middle class wanted to be associated with that.

    Cadillac had glimpses of brilliance in the late 1980's and 1990's. I give them a little credit for the Allante. But again, the emphasis was on the F-14 digital instrument cluster, and not on rear wheel drive or more power under the hood. I guarantee the Allante would have been a tremendous success if they had made it rear wheel drive and added about 100 horses to it.
    THe Northstar engine was upon introduction, the finest production engine in the world. And as for FWD being "no good"- well that all depends on where you live. Here in the North, where it snows, I will not have anything that is not at least FWD or AWD. Two weeks ago during a (minor by our standards) 8" snowstorm, my FWD caddy with stabilitrac went barreling up the center, snow bound lane of the interstate at 60 MPH, meanwhile, your famed BMWs, MBs, Audis and assorted Ricers were in the two outside lanes going 20-30 MPH and staring in disbelief at my Caddy as it went rolling by them as if on dry pavement.

    I drove cars in that kind of weather when they were all RWD and I would never go back- never. I travel a lot in the Northern Rockies and would never be without either FWD or AWD.

    By the end of the 1990's Cadillacs biggest fault was not embracing rear wheel drive for the entire lineup. The cushy ride characteristics were falling out of love with most people my age as well. So as they revamp the whole linup, a name change is only necessary. Most cars in this segment are designated by either numerical, alphabetical, or a combination of both characters. And they have less name tags on the car as well. Have you noticed the CTS or new STS? Only the wreath and crest and the 3 letters are on the decklid or grille. Nothing more. Not even the word Cadillac. To me, that's impressive. Because everyone knows a Mercedes by the 3 pointed star, everyone knows a BMW by the whirling blue and white propeller, so everyone will now know a Cadillac by the wreath and crest, and the vehicle by 3 letters. Short, crisp, and to the point.
    See above, RWD is a new thing to you kiddies. It is by far the best way to build a sport car as it is more efficient to push then to pull. But the reality is, is that you cannot find anywhere besides a track to drive a car much past 80 anymore and that's only in spurts. Sure, I can get "out west" in the middle of nowhere and crank it up, but that is rare and not every day driving. For driving around "town" and under all driving conditions, FWD or AWD is the only way to go- it will go when RWD will sit and spin- traction control or no. It simply only works on rear engine cars in inclement winters.

    Would I have bought a Caddy if the gang bangers still drove them? Nope, I bought it because nowadays they drive MBs and such. GM would be well advised to stay away from the "bling bling" crap and concentrate on performance and luxury as well as safety. I don't see MB advertising to the "home boys" and neither should GM.

  3. #63
    Incendiary is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    I'm under the impression that the world was about RWD, then switched to FWD for economic purposes. Now that Detroit has woken up to the fact that many associate RWD with luxury, they're switching back again.

    FWD is good for gas economy, increased cabin space, and reasonable go in snow. But it doesn't belong in sport-luxury cars. The market of the ES330 and the Deville would be very happy with the handling of FWD cars, I'm sure, but people who are going to be around to keep Cadillac afloat for the next 30-40 years want the performance of RWD.

    FWD should be relegated to economy cars like the Cobalt, Civic, and Jetta. I'd even submit that cars, like the ES or Deville, targeting people who want luxury with no modicum of sporty handling whatsoever, would do fine to have FWD drivetrains. The only problem with that is FWD has the stigma of "cheap," which is not befitting for luxury companies. And especially for Cadillac, which is trying to remake its entire image into that of sport-luxury, FWD is a no go. Gotta be RWD or AWD.

  4. #64
    Robert Brandtjen is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendiary
    I'm under the impression that the world was about RWD, then switched to FWD for economic purposes. Now that Detroit has woken up to the fact that many associate RWD with luxury, they're switching back again.

    FWD is good for gas economy, increased cabin space, and reasonable go in snow. But it doesn't belong in sport-luxury cars. The market of the ES330 and the Deville would be very happy with the handling of FWD cars, I'm sure, but people who are going to be around to keep Cadillac afloat for the next 30-40 years want the performance of RWD.
    Read what I wrote, the world's first luxury car to have FWD was the 1967 Eldorado. At $6,500.00 it was not cheap, not when a Ford Mustang was 1500.00. It was first class luxury and I guarantee you that no one was thinking about "economy" in 1967, not when a gallon of gas was under $.20. Just the Opposite, cars got bigger and bigger right through the 1970's. Cars that were once small became huge. FWD is not good for gas mileage, just the opposite. Like I said, pushing is more efficient then pulling. That's why a horse harness is engineered to push, not pull.

    Rear wheel drive is not a winter driving condition option, it's just silly- unless you want to wait a few days for the roads to get cleared. If you don't live in the real snow belt then spare me the nonsense about what's good and isn't good. I grew up with RWD cars, except for 3 GM models that's all there was back then. They sucked in the snow. And in the snow belt, that possibility is 6 months out of the year. Why do you think they became so popular? Why do you think sales of non FWD or AWD fell off so far? Why do you think "SUVs" have become so popular? You can't even sell a RWD truck to anyone up here, they have no value as they suck in the winter or in mud.

    Now, my former mother in law just bought the new STS last september, she got the V8 AWD model. The RWD model was not even considered and she's in her 60's and will be buying Caddies for another 20 years. She, like me, picks out a new car and writes a check for it- it is people like us that drive caddy sales, not kids with interest payments.

    Everyone I know who has a RWD car also has a "winter" car, usually an SUV to compensate. Most of them end up regretting it as it's not very practical keeping your favorite car locked up for months on end. When I owned my Porsches, I also owned a 4X4 for winter driving and hunting trips. I still own a 4X4, but I enjoy driving my Caddy. After 20 years of driving 4X4's, they are oh so "ho hum" no matter what you do to them.

    When I see grey haired men driving a Porsche or some other similar car, I laugh, and so do the women they are trying to impress. Why? Because it's obvious they were poor when young and are trying to recapture the youth they never had. I don't care if a twenty year old thinks my car is an "old mans" car since there is nothing a twenty year old has to say that has any meaning to me except "can I get you another...?" or "do you want me to check your tires?".

    BTW, I date women in their early 30's, career oriented professional types and they like my car. In fact, every one who sees it thinks it simply beautiful. Whenever it's at the dealer for service, the prospective buyers always ask what model it is. It's funny to hear the salesmen tell them and then say "we don't make that model that way anymore" and then when asked about the color - "we don't make that color anymore". It's a gold metallic flake (1969 color) golden anniversary Deville, loaded to the max- it goes good with a pair of blue jeans, hand made Tony Llamas and a hand made white shirt.

    Nope, I stand by my above comments whether GM believes them or not- it wasn't people like me that destroyed the image of the car, it was the negative society types. No one who can afford to write checks for $50,000.00 + cars wants to be associated with gang bangers. In fact, no one does at all- just ask the NBA about their plummeting ticket sales and television audience since they embraced the "bling bling" culture.

    As far as performance goes, just where are you going to go at 100 + MPH? Hmmm? I used to drive across the Dakotas and Montana at 120+ MPH in a Porsche for hours on end. It's a straight line, for the most part. That is one of the few areas in the country where no one really cares anymore and is empty enough to not have cops everywhere. Normal city driving does not require a car like that- in fact it's rather frustrating since you can never just open it up and let it rip without ending up in court with your lawyer. Oh sure, you can get by here and there but the longer you own it, the more tickets you'll get.

    All I care about is whether I can pass when I need to and can I take a clover leaf without slowing down. I can do both with my Caddy and I can do it without spilling a drop of coffee on a pair of 200.00 slacks or a silk tie. Not only that, I can do it with one hand on the wheel while listening to my hard rock cranked way up.

    I had to put an after market Alpine in my 911, the factory stereo was kinda sucky, even for those days.

    As A final aside, when I travel out West and am in resort towns, I always bump into Europeans who just love the car. Think it's exquisite. And they live in countries where MB are used as taxi cabs. Go figure. But then all of the awful drivers I see now-a-days are either driving Volvos, Saabs, Audis or Subarus. It's like they're brain dead. I guess it's a question of intelligence and taste. And before any of you try to tell me how much better a Benz or BMW is, I would consider the fact that these companies require their owners to have the vehicles serviced- all service only at their dealerships. Porsche has always been this way. It makes a huge difference in the car's long term life span. Having joe blow work on it for little things to save a buck is why American cars tend to have trouble. I predict that now that Cadillacs are near impossible to be worked on by neighborhood garages, they will last longer and will begin to reflect that in resale value. That will also curtail their usage by the gang bangers, who are notorious for not maintaining their cars, but instead buying tires that are worth more then their homes.

  5. #65
    Adam's Avatar
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Brandtjen
    Again, the Eldo was not built to slalom, it was built for the American Hi-way which has no hairpin turns to speak of. But by 1985 GM had other problems. Not the least of which were labor unions- who deliberately began sabotaging GM vehicles in the late 70's during contract talks. higher gas prices (gas in 1969 was $.19/gal not .69) which jumped to $2.00/gal in the early 1980's. They also had an image problem which was both real and imagined. The imagined was that anything AMerican made was bad and anything foreign made was good- pure bunk. The other that was real, was that the Caddy had become associated with low brow pimp/gangsters and no self respecting member of the middle/upper middle class wanted to be associated with that.
    Would I have bought a Caddy if the gang bangers still drove them? Nope, I bought it because nowadays they drive MBs and such. GM would be well advised to stay away from the "bling bling" crap and concentrate on performance and luxury as well as safety. I don't see MB advertising to the "home boys" and neither should GM.
    uh, you are aware that Al Capone and other such gangsters and mobsters of the 20s, 30s, 40s and on and on and on drove Cadillacs right? Al Capone swore by them and even owned an armored Caddi worth $27,000.00 (and that was at that time period and not by todays standards. and rappers and pimps and what not that talk about driving Cadillacs, you do know that they are singing about the cars they used to drive when they lived in the "hood." not to many drive them anymore, they all drives expensive MBs and BMWs. you should listen to the songs before putting them down .

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    Incendiary is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    You have some very interesting views (and I don't just mean about cars)...

    I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the 1967 Eldorado. Are you trying to imply that because it had FWD that FWD is not cheap? FWD is less costly to manufacture and does contribute to better gas mileage, if not for the fact that it tends to be used in smaller and cheaper econocars. But class stigma aside, there are other reasons to bash FWD. Torque steer (acceleration) and understeer (handling) come to mind. FWD does have its benefits, but other than cost, AWD does almost everything better (except stop). RWD may not be a viable option for those in Buffalo or Minnesota (although there are still plenty who manage), but that's why I think RWD/AWD options, like how everyone else in the luxury game does it, is the only alternative.

    I regularly go above 100 mph, but I'm also not sure why you keep mentioning that. If you're going that fast, you're going in a straight line for the most part, and then drivetrain isn't a factor.

  7. #67
    Incendiary is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by 93fleetwoodlowlow
    uh, you are aware that Al Capone and other such gangsters and mobsters of the 20s, 30s, 40s and on and on and on drove Cadillacs right? Al Capone swore by them and even owned an armored Caddi worth $27,000.00 (and that was at that time period and not by todays standards. and rappers and pimps and what not that talk about driving Cadillacs, you do know that they are singing about the cars they used to drive when they lived in the "hood." not to many drive them anymore, they all drives expensive MBs and BMWs. you should listen to the songs before putting them down .
    Judging from his other remarks, I don't think those gangbangers are the type he reserves his disdain for...

  8. #68
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    davesdeville is offline Banned
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by 93fleetwoodlowlow
    and rappers and pimps and what not that talk about driving Cadillacs, you do know that they are singing about the cars they used to drive when they lived in the "hood." not to many drive them anymore, they all drives expensive MBs and BMWs. you should listen to the songs before putting them down .
    Pff. Ever heard of the Snoop Deville? Fat Joe and Terror Squad have 20 Escalades. I've seen Luda's green Deville... BMWs are still for yuppies, Cadillac is even more popular than Benz in the rap and hip hop scene.

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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendiary
    FWD is less costly to manufacture and does contribute to better gas mileage, if not for the fact that it tends to be used in smaller and cheaper econocars.
    You are correct about FWD being better for fuel economy, and that's the primary reason the X-car was introduced in 1980 for the 1979 gas crises. However based on everything I've read for the last 25 years on fwd, it is MORE expensive to manufacture, maintain and repair. The reason, there are more parts involved with fwd and most autobodies know that front end damage to a new Deville will be more costly to repair than a comparative RWD counterpart.

    This is one of the reasons cab companies or fleet have typically used RWD vehicles like Grand Marquis or Crown Vics namely, for ease of maintanance and repair.

    http://hostingprod.com/@aa1car.com/library/cvjoint1.htm

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    Incendiary is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph
    You are correct about FWD being better for fuel economy, and that's the primary reason the X-car was introduced in 1980 for the 1979 gas crises. However based on everything I've read for the last 25 years on fwd, it is MORE expensive to manufacture, maintain and repair. The reason, there are more parts involved with fwd and most autobodies know that front end damage to a new Deville will be more costly to repair than a comparative RWD counterpart.

    This is one of the reasons cab companies or fleet have typically used RWD vehicles like Grand Marquis or Crown Vics namely, for ease of maintanance and repair.

    http://hostingprod.com/@aa1car.com/library/cvjoint1.htm
    Interesting, I've always read the opposite. Oh well, no matter...

  11. #71
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    Pff. Ever heard of the Snoop Deville? Fat Joe and Terror Squad have 20 Escalades. I've seen Luda's green Deville... BMWs are still for yuppies, Cadillac is even more popular than Benz in the rap and hip hop scene.
    could have worded that one better, ment when they drove hoopties. Snoop is an exception hes a lowrider. and the others, i wasnt talking driving the new ones, just the old ones.

  12. #72
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    I dont like the three letter names. When people look at your car, I want them to go "hey look, a Deville." When I see an E500 or something (cant even remember the name lol there you go) I would have to pause for a few seconds and think. "hey look, uhhhhhh an E uhhhhh 543 or something" lol. Its like they're naming parts of a computer. SC430, ES500, 328ci. If the new deville was named Deville, I dont think it would conjure up memories of 70s and 80s floating couches as long as it looks sharp, but still american.

  13. #73
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by 93fleetwoodlowlow
    what song says DTS? on the new Young Buck cd track no. 5 he says "gold grilles, Coupe DEVILLES sittin on 22s...." i know hes talking about the older Devilles but i havent heard any rapper refer to their car as DTS. and most rappers talk about Escalades. Youngbloodz talk about Devilles and Fleetwoods.
    I know this post is a little old but there is a song thats adequately called "Bump this in yo Cadillac" {REMIX} Where he exclusivesly names the DTS and DHS. I wish I could attach a soundclip because I have the song and if anyone wants to hear it let me know.

    DUB

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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern DubVille
    I know this post is a little old but there is a song thats adequately called "Bump this in yo Cadillac" {REMIX} Where he exclusivesly names the DTS and DHS. I wish I could attach a soundclip because I have the song and if anyone wants to hear it let me know.

    DUB
    who sings it?

  15. #75
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    Re: About the name of deville replacement?

    Quote Originally Posted by 93fleetwoodlowlow
    who sings it?

    Mike Jones Ft. Twista, Froze, and Bun-B

    Dub

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