No new Northstar
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  1. #1
    ronr's Avatar
    ronr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    No new Northstar

    Implications for the '09 V?

    DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.
    The move means the future for Cadillacís V-8 car engines is unclear.
    In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.
    GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillacís long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.
    Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.
    The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 ...

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  3. #2
    Dr. Design is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Not going to affect the 09 CTS-V, never was as it was always going to use the LS based engines. Apparently the development of the 3.6DI motor has gone pretty well as it would seem they dont have a need for the larger V8 n/a motors creating slightly more power then the old N* V8's.

    This might have greater implications for the new STS/DTS 2010+ and the new flagship vehicle they were mulling over..........

    Dr. Design

    Quote Originally Posted by ronr View Post
    Implications for the '09 V?

    DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.
    The move means the future for Cadillacís V-8 car engines is unclear.
    In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.
    GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillacís long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.
    Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.
    The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 ...

  4. #3
    asrapid is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Design View Post
    Not going to affect the 09 CTS-V, never was as it was always going to use the LS based engines. Apparently the development of the 3.6DI motor has gone pretty well as it would seem they dont have a need for the larger V8 n/a motors creating slightly more power then the old N* V8's.

    This might have greater implications for the new STS/DTS 2010+ and the new flagship vehicle they were mulling over..........

    Dr. Design
    What engine will have future xlr than? An ls3 or?...cadillac is luxury car and like all competition should have smooth an quiet DOHC v8 engine in its lineup. Or they can forget about Europe and "Standard of the world" frase. Can GM upgrade northstar to 400 + (this would be minimum since there is already Bmw v8 with turbocharger and new mercedes v8 on its way with even more HP) or to about 600 hp for v series?
    Yes they could probably develop v6 with twinturbo setup to deliver 400 hp..but people in this class will rather have v8 engine..And if someone buys car with that much power i don't think they are much concerned with fuel consumption

  5. #4
    Dr. Design is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: No new Northstar

    That is a good question. Last I heard it was going to be the next gen DOHC V8, that was just apparently axed....? (going to have to ask a good source about that one) In a car of that magnitude the V6 wouldnít cut the mustard in an N/A form. However the twin turbo that will be released in a future V-Series might make a good base motor.

    To be honest with you the XLR is still up in the air. Since it shares the vette chassis, the rumors about the next gen vette are somewhat tied to the next gen XLR. The struggle seems to be, what division is going to get to release the new chassis first, Cadillac or Chevrolet? I would agree with you that Cadillac needs to go back after the "Standard of the World" mentality as it would push them to making a no excuse product! The consumers in that demographic would most likely require nothing less than a V8.

    The northstar and 400HP....Well I can certainly say it is possible (as we just built one for a customer). Would Cadillac put that out in production this late in the game. I would say no. The CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) really screwed up a lot of future plans for automotive manufactures. This might have something to do with the development stoppage of this new V8. The northstar was already on its way out....

    Dr. Design





    Quote Originally Posted by asrapid View Post
    What engine will have future xlr than? An ls3 or?...cadillac is luxury car and like all competition should have smooth an quiet DOHC v8 engine in its lineup. Or they can forget about Europe and "Standard of the world" frase. Can GM upgrade northstar to 400 + (this would be minimum since there is already Bmw v8 with turbocharger and new mercedes v8 on its way with even more HP) or to about 600 hp for v series?
    Yes they could probably develop v6 with twinturbo setup to deliver 400 hp..but people in this class will rather have v8 engine..And if someone buys car with that much power i don't think they are much concerned with fuel consumption

  6. #5
    Lord Cadillac is offline Cadillac Maniac
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    Re: No new Northstar

    This is really getting scary. With Hyundai coming out with a 375 horsepower v8 that's being used in an every day vehicle (not some v-series type car), Cadillac needs to do Something with their Northstar...
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  7. #6
    asrapid is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Design View Post
    That is a good question. Last I heard it was going to be the next gen DOHC V8, that was just apparently axed....? (going to have to ask a good source about that one) In a car of that magnitude the V6 wouldn’t cut the mustard in an N/A form. However the twin turbo that will be released in a future V-Series might make a good base motor.

    To be honest with you the XLR is still up in the air. Since it shares the vette chassis, the rumors about the next gen vette are somewhat tied to the next gen XLR. The struggle seems to be, what division is going to get to release the new chassis first, Cadillac or Chevrolet? I would agree with you that Cadillac needs to go back after the "Standard of the World" mentality as it would push them to making a no excuse product! The consumers in that demographic would most likely require nothing less than a V8.

    The northstar and 400HP....Well I can certainly say it is possible (as we just built one for a customer). Would Cadillac put that out in production this late in the game. I would say no. The CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) really screwed up a lot of future plans for automotive manufactures. This might have something to do with the development stoppage of this new V8. The northstar was already on its way out....

    Dr. Design
    Yes it probably does effect future plans for automotive manufactures. But BMW 5 will probably have v8 with twin turbo, mercedes will also have new v8 in its E class, lexus also and jaguar is developing new 5.0 l V8. And if i can remeber correct there is rumors about new Ford Boss engine also.Even new Hyundai Genesis will have new Tau V8. Hyundai will have new v8 DOHC(this will probably boost image here in Europe), but cadillac won't .
    I don't have anything against LS engines but if you put same engine in top cadillac model (non-v) and pontiac and chevy which are cheaper..Luxurie car buyers won't be happy about that too much.

  8. #7
    Dr. Design is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Yeah I would say it is pretty interesting times. One thing is that the North America market is a little different then the European market. I dont know what the laws are on Imported Vehicles and them having to meet any CAFE regulations. But if it is the case, they would feel the HP crunch also. Seems like the early 70's all over again.....HP wars eventually need to come to an end. I just hope they dont put us all into crumby econo cars that suck to drive. I remember reading something that gave the ratio for fuel efficient cars : high HP cars. Either they would have to sell a bunch of fuel economy cars or they would have to offer very few high HP cars.

    "Fuel efficiency requirements will increase 40 percent to 35 miles per gallon by 2020. Automakers will have to meet the regulations starting in 2011." - source Detroit News http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...61/rss41&imw=Y

    There seems to be more attention being focused on alternative and fuel cell vehicles at GM. Maybe they will go in that direction...


    Dr. Design

  9. #8
    Lord Cadillac is offline Cadillac Maniac
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    Re: No new Northstar

    The general consensus is that this decision had nothing to do with CAFE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zete from GMI
    I doubt it has anything to do with CAFE simply because the numbers of cars this v8 would have been used in is so small. There's obviously something else behind it. Maybe a hybrid v8 solution or another engine, like a DOD v12 that has better prestige and yet similar mileage.

    My reasoning is fairly simple. It would be in the STS/DTS replacement, maybe the XLR, and the ULS plus the Enclave. Thus, the impact on CAFE is nearly immaterial since most buyers of GM vehicles do NOT buy those high-end vehicles. Even with the Enclave, it would probably be 10 or 20% of the sales, total, which would not impact the numbers that much. I do believe, however, that a Two Mode DI 3.6 V6 would be an excellent choice for the likes of the Enclave: excellent mileage and the oomph of a typical v8 courtesy of the electric boost.
    This engine has been delayed twice because of supplier issues. It could even have something to do with that...
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  10. #9
    asrapid is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No new Northstar

    I don't think there will be v12 ..CTS is, or will be, competition to bmw 5, E class Audi A6 etc. At least MCE cts which according to rumors should come in 2010/11. Rumors also said that it would get new ultra V8 engine (it supposed to get it in 2008 but there was some sort of delay) .But it seems it won't happen and i don't think v12 will go in cts.Also rumors was there is some 6.2 l Dohc engine (but rumors about ultra V8 was that it can go up to 6.0 l and cadillac should get 5.0 l version)
    Point is in Europe cars with that kind of power are very expensive ( cadillac with 3.6 l v6 DI cost around 60 000$) so people who buys that kind of cars don't care about how much fuel does this car use etc. Especially cars with v8 engine in it.It is a more of a image thing. And cadillac won't get image sharing engines from top models with cheaper cars.
    Also if you look at the tuners ..in europe tuners like Alpine, Brabus,etc. are highly appriciate. I can't find any firm except D3design which deals with tuning of cadillac with Northstar engine. Why?

  11. #10
    MoFex's Avatar
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    New V8 canceled

    DETROIT -- General Motors has canceled plans to build a new advanced double overhead-cam V-8 for its luxury cars.

    The move means the future for Cadillacís V-8 car engines is unclear.

    In January 2007, GM said it would invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new V-8 engine, which was scheduled to start production in 2009 and be used in luxury cars.

    GM Powertrain spokesman Tom Read said Thursday that the project is dead. That engine likely would have replaced Cadillacís long-running Northstar V-8, which is scheduled to end production in 2010.

    Cadillac could switch to high-powered V-6s in its cars, except for the Corvette-based XLR.

    The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008 CTS develops 304 hp, while the current Northstar V-8 makes 275 hp in the 2008 DTS.

    Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, ďWeíve really seen the V-6 become the predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because itís so close in power to the V-8.Ē

    He added that the V-6 is about 150 to 200 pounds lighter.

    The cancellation of the new V-8 comes just days after President Bush signed into law new fuel economy standards that call for a 40 percent fuel economy improvement by 2020. The new standards start phasing in in 2011.

    The Tonawanda plant still gets at least one new engine, an all-new 4.5-liter diesel V-8 engine that starts production in 2010. That engine, GM said earlier, will be used in light pickups and SUVs.

  12. #11
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    Re: New V8 canceled

    That settles it. I'm keeping my 'Vette forever.

  13. #12
    jjsC6 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: New V8 canceled

    The logic is really flawed though. Gee, they are selling mostly V6s because the power is so close to the V8? DUH, could it be that the V8 is behind the times? With Lexus, BMW and Mercedes putting out a lot more power in their V8s, the Northstar has hardly improved at all in - what, over 10 years?

    Yes, I have a new Corvette as well (436hp). I'm thinking it might be a keeper also!

  14. #13
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    Re: New V8 canceled

    What a joke. Cadillac w/o a V8 = insane. That's a way to rebuild the brand...
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  15. #14
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    Re: New V8 canceled

    I pointed out on another car forum......considering the scarcity of fossil fuels and the slow winning of the tree huggers...........we are coming to the end of the second golden age of Motoring. Enjoy it while you can. The V8 will be assigned a spot in the dust bin of history.
    However, tradition aside, new diesels can and will take the place of the V8s.


    Geneva Motor Show: Cadillac unveils powerful new V6 clean diesel engine
    Posted Mar 6th 2007 5:41AM by Dane Muldoon




    General Motors has debuted a new 2.9-liter V6 turbo-diesel engine, destined to find its way into the 2009 Cadillac CTS. Indicating that it will be "sold mainly in Europe", GM have signalled their intentions to go after Europe's finest in the hotly contested executive saloon market with the powerful new engine.

    Delivering 184 kW / 250 hp of power and a monstrous 550 Nm / 406 ft-lbs of torque (compare this to the 155 kW and 526 Nm of the new Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec), the oil burner is built to match Cadillac's performance-oriented brand character. But Cadillac is likely to be far from the only brand in GM's stable which will eventually get to take advantage of this new engine; it can be installed in a longitudinal or transverse layout and can be adapted to a wide range of two- or four-wheel-drive vehicles so expect it to pop up all over.

    Other high tech features include a closed-loop combustion control system which has been designed to give the engine longevity by allowing it to meet future emissions standards; state-of-the-art injection and combustion technology for low emissions and high performance; a variable geometry turbo; and an advanced engine management system for optimal fuel economy as well as reduced emissions and noise.

    Analysis: GM's getting serious about the European market where you have to be packing an advanced clean diesel under the hood to be taken seriously when petrol prices are so high. It looks like a lot of work has gone into making this a really flexible engine through the emissions controls employed and its ability to be installed in a longitudinal or transverse layout. No word yet on whether it meets the latest Californian emissions standards or what the fuel economy can expect to be. I'll be looking forward to the details.

  16. #15
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    Re: New V8 canceled

    I drove MB, BMW and Saab with diesel engines while on business trips in Europe. The smallest engine was 2.2l normally aspirated MB. I could not believe how strong and torquey the engine was! Kudos to GM for developing the diesel. I just hope they start selling it over here.....

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