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Cadillac News, Concepts, Future Models, Rumors and more Discussion, No new Northstar in Current Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; Okay everybody... CALM DOWN! I think everyone is reading entirely too much into this and as a result is causing ...
  1. #46
    AMGoff's Avatar
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Okay everybody... CALM DOWN! I think everyone is reading entirely too much into this and as a result is causing a whole lot of panties to be ruffled...

    First of all... we have to take this "news" with a grain of salt as it may be nothing more than a typical Lutzian spin... chest-thump, balk and bark, over-reaction to the latest moves by the Federal government, all in the name of under-promise, over-deliver. Do we remember the on again, off again melodrama surrounding the Zeta platform? It wasn't all that long ago that GM announced that the Zeta was being cancelled due to various circumstances - corporate cost cutting, uncertain pending legislation, etc... And what happened? Well... the exact opposite... aside from those already in production in foreign markets ranging from Holdens to Daewoos to Buicks, at home we've got the G8 coming out this year, we've got the Camaro slated for next year, the new Impala the year after, as well as a lot of talk of a possible new Buick and Cadillac after that.

    So, part of me says that this program has NOT been cancelled but that GM just wants it out of the public eye... the most we can probably believe as a certainty is that whatever happens, the engine is not going to be built at the Tonawanda plant.

    Even if the story does hold water, there's absolutely no reason to jump to the conclusion that this spells out the death of V8s in Cadillacs, only the end of an unnecessarily complicated, expensive to manufacture, DOHC V8... and it won't be the end of the world either. GM isn't so obtuse as to drop V8+ engines from their luxury car division... they've come too far with what can be described as the nothing less than stellar renaissance that has swept through the brand. They've still got their eye on the ball, they're still gunning for the Germans, and they know that if they're going to be taken seriously as a word-class luxury carmaker, they need to have V8 and/or bigger engines in their offerings.

    With that said... just like any of the competition, the vast majority of buyers are going to opt for a V6. So it makes sense that they should focus a good deal of their resources on making world-class six-cylinder engines, which is exactly what they've been doing. Does anyone honestly think it would make any sense for the company to dump millions upon millions of dollars on a new "advanced" DOHC engine that will only see use in a small number of vehicles? It would be a complete waste - something GM has been trying desperately to cut down on.

    Speaking of the competition, especially the German competition as someone else had asked/mentioned... they do have a special way of getting around the CAFE standards - they pay out the nose to have their monster engines. If I recall... Diamler recently paid the largest fine ever to the US government for violating the CAFE regulations. So let the Germans keep up these ridiculous horsepower wars, hopefully they'll end up bankrupting themselves over it.

    With that aside, GM knows how to make fantastic V8 engines.. they've been doing so for 94 years, and their current crop are the lightest, most potent, most efficient ones in the company's fabled history - the current LS line. I just don't see why some people find pushrods to be so offensive, they do their job and they do them well. It makes much more sense, from a financial standpoint, from production standpoint, and most importantly from a power stand point for GM to further adapt and further utilize the exceptional LS V8s they already have at their disposal. I know that I at least will feel no less special nor will I feel the car is no less luxurious simply because it has a pushrod motor under the hood. The fact remains, the Northstar is long in the tooth and is more of liability for Cadillac than an asset. The sooner they put it out to pasture the better... there's a GenIV LS suited for every need and I'd love for Cadillac to fully utilize the entire range - from the 5.3 all the way up to the monster 7.0. If done, Cadillac could very well have the most comprehensive lineup of V8 powerplants out of the entire luxury market.

    However, the biggest reason why it makes the most sense for GM to stop putzing around with a Northstar replacement might very well come down to their much rumored and much needed flagship DTS/STS replacement. A subsequent product of focusing such effort on their high-feature V6s is the very real possibility of finally getting a V12. By taking the time to develop a truly world-class V6, they've laid the foundation for making a truly world-class V12. It will be much easier for GM to slap two of those puppies together then it will to develop a new V8, and they'll be able to skirt around Mr. Bush's new CAFE standards by using their already developed technologies - cylinder deactivation, direct injection, vvt, etc...

    They already have perfectly good V8s at their disposal, so why reinvent the wheel? I truly believe that Cadillac is bent on recapturing their place as "the Standard of the World," and because of which I think they're finally starting to think outside the box. So while many of you may see the somehow-unfortunate demise of what is a largely unnecessary engine, I see number of possibilities, fantastic opportunities, and a really bright future for America's greatest automotive brand.

  2. #47
    Superjim's Avatar
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    Re: No new Northstar

    As AMGoff said......

    There's a GenIV LS suited for every need and I'd love for Cadillac to fully utilize the entire range - from the 5.3 all the way up to the monster 7.0.

    I tend to agree. It doesn't really matter to me if I have 4 cams or 1. As long as it is a V8 with PLENTY of power.

    My son recently bought a new GMC Denali. It has the 6.2 VVT engine with 403 HP. He bought the Diablo Preditor tuner and has been playing with it for a couple of months. He also added CAI and true dual exhaust to it. It runs like a V8 and SOUNDS like a V8. Good combination.

    It is VERY STOUT and gets pretty good gas mileage. Might be a good engine for a big Cadillac. I heard that they were going to use a version of it in the new CTS V with a Supercharger putting out about 550 HP.

    Jim from Texas

  3. #48
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    Re: No new Northstar

    I wish I had seen this post sooner so I apologize in advance if my opinion closely mirrors others. However, my first reaction remains the same; what the hell is GM thinking. The V8 engine and more recently the Northstar V8 has been the cornerstone of the Cadillac line since the 1920's. And who can forget the V12's and V16's that had the smoothness of the modern day Northstar back in the 1930's. Cadillac fancies itself a competitor to the likes of Mercedes Benz, BMW, Lexus and Jaguar. How do they plan to achieve this goal if only six cylinders power their flagship sedans? The new V6 may be a nice engine with decent power but it still not going to have the smoothness and refinement of a V8 power plant. As far as gas mileage is concerned, the difference between the current V6 and V8 is minimal; something in the range of 2-3 MGP if that. And it is clear which engine delivers it's power smoother and with better response.
    It killed me when the new STS was introduced with a V6 option. The last time a Seville had a V6 engine was in 1981 with the Buick 4.1 and we all know it was an underpowered disaster. Even if the new V6 has the power to move a car like the STS I still don't believe it can do it with the refinement of a V8 or V12 engine. There is a reason that should be obvious to GM why Cadillac's competition uses V8's and V12's in their flagship vehicles.
    The Northstar engine put Cadillac back on the map after a series of power train disasters. There is still a lot that could be done to the Northstar to improve performance, refinement and efficiency. It is an engine worthy to compete with the likes of BMW's 4.4 V8. I cannot understand why GM would not take the time to improve upon a great design. It is sad that Lincoln also is being lead down "Primrose Path" with the killing of the Town Car and the introduction of a V6 powered replacement. The only V8 engine left in their line-up will be the Navigator. Once again, what the hell are American auto manufacturers thinking? I hate to say it but I am finding that members of my family as well as friends are taking their business elsewhere when it comes to the purchase of luxury cars. If Cadillac continues on this path, I will also be inclined to do likewise and I doubt I will be the only one.

  4. #49
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Quote Originally Posted by JCM1 View Post
    I wish I had seen this post sooner so I apologize in advance if my opinion closely mirrors others. However, my first reaction remains the same; what the hell is GM thinking. The V8 engine and more recently the Northstar V8 has been the cornerstone of the Cadillac line since the 1920's. And who can forget the V12's and V16's that had the smoothness of the modern day Northstar back in the 1930's. Cadillac fancies itself a competitor to the likes of Mercedes Benz, BMW, Lexus and Jaguar. How do they plan to achieve this goal if only six cylinders power their flagship sedans? The new V6 may be a nice engine with decent power but it still not going to have the smoothness and refinement of a V8 power plant. As far as gas mileage is concerned, the difference between the current V6 and V8 is minimal; something in the range of 2-3 MGP if that. And it is clear which engine delivers it's power smoother and with better response.
    It killed me when the new STS was introduced with a V6 option. The last time a Seville had a V6 engine was in 1981 with the Buick 4.1 and we all know it was an underpowered disaster. Even if the new V6 has the power to move a car like the STS I still don't believe it can do it with the refinement of a V8 or V12 engine. There is a reason that should be obvious to GM why Cadillac's competition uses V8's and V12's in their flagship vehicles.
    The Northstar engine put Cadillac back on the map after a series of power train disasters. There is still a lot that could be done to the Northstar to improve performance, refinement and efficiency. It is an engine worthy to compete with the likes of BMW's 4.4 V8. I cannot understand why GM would not take the time to improve upon a great design. It is sad that Lincoln also is being lead down "Primrose Path" with the killing of the Town Car and the introduction of a V6 powered replacement. The only V8 engine left in their line-up will be the Navigator. Once again, what the hell are American auto manufacturers thinking? I hate to say it but I am finding that members of my family as well as friends are taking their business elsewhere when it comes to the purchase of luxury cars. If Cadillac continues on this path, I will also be inclined to do likewise and I doubt I will be the only one.
    I agree with a lot of this, but when you told me to look for this post, I was sure you would mention the Suburban salesman bit.

    The two of us were at the Suburban Oldsmobile Cadillac Buick dealership in Troy, Michigan a few weeks ago, and after dropping a car off at the service department, we looked around the showroom a bit and spoke to a couple of the sales people.

    We spoke about several cars, including the STS, more specifically to its options and their specific numbers. When asked about the V8 option, the salesman took a "why would you want that, the V6 is just as good or better" attitude, claiming a sizable difference in mileage, and incorrectly stated that the V6 had more power, that the Northstar V8 for this years model had been derated to 292 HP as compared to the V6's 304 HP. I had to point out on a car's window sticker that this was the DTS Performance version of the engine, that STS's engine produced 320HP. He acted as if he genuinely did not want to sell me a car with the V8 engine.

    I will note that my Eldorado gets just as good (sometimes better) mileage as my friend's STS V6. Unless this new 3.6 is significantly more efficient than the old one, this salesman is an idiot and way off the mark if he thinks that the mileage difference is anything more than one or possibly two miles per gallon.

    Now, this may offend many people who own some of these cars, but I believe that the V6 option is absolutely disgraceful to the Cadillac line, and that it (and the car that introduced it, the CTS) should be relegated to Fleet and rental duty only (a la Crown Victoria for this year) pending discontinuation of the products.

    I hope just as much that I never see a Cadillac with the 5.3 V8 found in the Impala SS, as that engine is not nearly refined enough for a Cadillac (nor are any LS V8s), its torque band is that of a truck engine (awful for a car), and that it's an absolutely uncivilized piece of engineering, being only 16 valves and using pushrods. It's not that I have anything against pushrod engines, but their torque and horsepower bands are not ideal for most car applications (low end vs mid and high end).

  5. #50
    jey
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Quote Originally Posted by AMGoff View Post
    Speaking of the competition, especially the German competition as someone else had asked/mentioned... they do have a special way of getting around the CAFE standards - they pay out the nose to have their monster engines. If I recall... Diamler recently paid the largest fine ever to the US government for violating the CAFE regulations. So let the Germans keep up these ridiculous horsepower wars, hopefully they'll end up bankrupting themselves over it.
    The CAFE standards are a joke too. So Chrysler had to pay a $30M fine for 2006. They also sold 2,087,000 cars. That's only $14.50 per car. I would gladly pay $14.50 for a V8. I believe the current fine for CAFE is $55 per mpg below standard, per car. That is not a lot of money, considering the purchase price of a new automobile.

  6. #51
    eldorado1 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Exclamation End of the line: New Northstar is dead.

    Well this sucks.... I'm all for increasing fuel economy, but dammit!

    http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/01/is-the-mighty-a.html

    Only a year ago, General Motors pledged to invest $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for the new double overhead cam V8 engines that would be used in its luxury brands. Yesterday, it canceled those plans. This raises the question, what's going to replace the splendid but aging Northstar V8s currently used in Cadillacs? Answer: perhaps nothing.

    Discuss.

  7. #52
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    Re: No new Northstar

    There really is not a need for a new northstar since they are not using the front wheel drive powertrain any longer. With that being said the LS should fit nicely into the V series cars and the 3.6L V6 is plenty capable of providing the 300 hp that the Northstar generates. I love the Northstar but in my opinion this is probably a good move.

  8. #53
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    Re: No new Northstar

    I hope they start offering some hybrid Cadillacs. I only wish I could run my STS on E85 not because it costs less but because I would be depending less on foreign oil and not polluting as much.

  9. #54
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    Re: Northstars are going away???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillacboy View Post
    I think it will bring some humiliation to the brand as well . V8 is a must for the top American luxury car
    Yup X2

    I ask you what's an XLR without a DOHC engine? (Hint its called a Corvette)
    and While you are thinking about that, no premium DOHC means no STS after 2009/10 as well. Cadillac show rooms are going to be really lonely places you'll have the CTS, the CTS coupe and the CTS-V... Some form of Escallade (maybe) and thats it... Even Oldsmobile had more options in the year that they killed them.

    This is really really dumb.

    Chysler went this route in the 80's putting turbo 4's and V6's in there luxury cars... Customers left in droves... Sure the new 3.6 makes almost as much power as a Northstar... Toyota/Lexus's new DI 4.6 make almost 400 HP...

    Without a V8 in this market you are FORCING customers to drive Lexus, BMW and MB... This is Mr Lutz's finest hour.

  10. #55
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    Re: No new Northstar

    V8 engines should only be available in the V series and XLR in my opinion. The original Northstar was made for front wheel drive and since gm changed powertrains there really isn't a need for it anymore. I do hate to see it go and I wish they would design a new one but until they get back on there feet it's not likely. Maybe if the UAW backs off they would have more money to do the research. But as long as they have to give the UAW sexual favors in order for them to put in work that just makes me irrate !

  11. #56
    Ur7x is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Quote Originally Posted by dwight.j.carter View Post
    V8 engines should only be available in the V series and XLR in my opinion. The original Northstar was made for front wheel drive and since gm changed powertrains there really isn't a need for it anymore. I do hate to see it go and I wish they would design a new one but until they get back on there feet it's not likely. Maybe if the UAW backs off they would have more money to do the research. But as long as they have to give the UAW sexual favors in order for them to put in work that just makes me irrate !
    Your missing the obvious point here... No North* replacement means probably no V8s in ANY Cadillacs other then the Escalade and maybe not even those.

    The North* replacement was to be used in the new 2009/2010 STS replacement... No new engine probably means NO NEW STS...

    An LS1 XLR is called a Corvette... The XLR will never get the LS1, that would compete head to head and would hurt Corvette sales and Chevy will not tolerate that. No North* means no XLR either.

    And yes while the N* started life as a FWD engine it was retooled in 2004 for RWD duty as well.

    This is REALLY REALLY BAD NEWS

  12. #57
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    Re: No new Northstar

    I agree with many points here, to an extent....

    While I have always been a big fan of the North* (even though I give you N* boys a lot of shit) I can definately understand why they are getting rid of it, sort of.

    First off, I dont really think that it is because of new fuel economy requirements. My 3.6 and my brothers N* STS get almost the EXACT same fuel economy. I bet a newer Northstar is even more efficient. Also, with the next gen northstar wouldnt they be able to put in some sort of cylinder shutdown system to save gas when the power isnt needed?

    Now, in a perfect world GM would offer each Cadillac with two or three seperate trimn packages. BMW (I hate BMW, BTW) has been doing this for years (328, 335I, M3, etc...). For Example:

    Base CTS: 255hp 3.6L, 304hp DI 3.6L,
    Sport CTS: 400hp Supercharged 3.6l
    CTS-V: 550hp LSA

    Base STS: 304hp DI 3.6
    Sport? STS: 400hp Next gen northstar
    STS-V: 500 to 600hp Supercharged Northstar

    Base XLR: 400hp Next gen Northstar
    XLR-V: 500hp+ Supercharged Northstar

    DTS- WHO CARES! Let grampa drive em! AHAHAHA!

    Now, that is a perfect world to me. Are we going to see it? Not likely! However, you will notice one thing. Look at that CTS sport engine.... See a trend? Thats right. Replace, the 400hp Northstar with a Supercharged 3.6. This is the type of thing that has been done in Europe (I hate Europe also, BTW) for years. This improves fuel economy and cuts down on emissions. I would have no problem with replacing the next gen N* with a supercharged 3.6. However, if this route is taken, what becomes of the XLR-V and STS-V?

  13. #58
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    Re: No new Northstar

    I really wouldn't be worried about V8s going away in Cadillacs. The Escalades will always have V8s - there never was a Northstar Escalade anyway. The V-Series will probably always have V8s. The only reason I say "probably" is because who knows what the new entry-level "V" is going to have. It probably wouldn't be a big deal if it had a twin turbo V6.

    The only thing that concerns me a LITTLE is that the V6 powering the CTS and STS are a little weak compared to the competition. However, they may be doing the same thing very soon (reducing engine sizes). The STS/DTS replacement is going to have a direct injected V6. The larger sedan that people refer to as "supersedan" will have a V8.
    Have an iPhone? Than you can get involved right now. Click here to download Cars Connected.

  14. #59
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    Re: No new Northstar

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Cadillac View Post
    I really wouldn't be worried about V8s going away in Cadillacs. The Escalades will always have V8s - there never was a Northstar Escalade anyway. The V-Series will probably always have V8s. The only reason I say "probably" is because who knows what the new entry-level "V" is going to have. It probably wouldn't be a big deal if it had a twin turbo V6.

    The only thing that concerns me a LITTLE is that the V6 powering the CTS and STS are a little weak compared to the competition. However, they may be doing the same thing very soon (reducing engine sizes). The STS/DTS replacement is going to have a direct injected V6. The larger sedan that people refer to as "supersedan" will have a V8.
    I am going to have to disagree here Sal. Entry level and V should not be in the same sentence. First off, the V's are all fully loaded. No such thing as an entry level V. IMHO any V series should be able to destroy anything the competition offers. Pretty sure the new CTS-V does that....

    Also, the entry level Cadillacs have significantly more power than entry level Bimmers. Look at the specs on a 328i or 525i. WAY less power than any 3.6L powered CTS or STS. Look at the new 09V series. WAY more power than the M3 or M5.

    The part where Cadillac is lacking is the middle ground. The 335i crushes any CTS besides a V. This where my sport idea comes in. The 530i crushes any STS. Again, this is where the 400hp offering comes in.

    Basically we are kicking their asses all over the place except the middle 325 to 400hp ground.

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