Cadillac News, Concepts, Future Models, Rumors and more Discussion, No new Northstar in Current Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; I may be slightly off topic, but I believe there is a correlation to the main theme: Luxury Expectations . ...
- 01-04-08 01:48 PM #31
Re: New V8 canceled
I may be slightly off topic, but I believe there is a correlation to the main theme: Luxury Expectations. As a multiple Cadillac owner for the past 20 years, I long for the Cadillac presence and the former missions statement: Cadillac Style!
Yesterday I finally got to my local Cadillac Dealer: Coast Cadillac Long Beach, CA. for my personal preview of the CTS. While I thought the car was striking from the outside, and the interior really well done, it was too snug for me to really approve it . I sat in various models on the dealership floor and I noticed a 2008 Black DTS with the Vintage Luxury package! The interior fit was luxurious, and with the exception of the lack of an electronic tilt and telescoping steering wheel, it offered every amenity I currently enjoy in both of my STS's.
About the Northstar III Ultra V8 news: For months I have been saying that GM should be reinventing it's engine programs to make higher torque, more fuel efficiency and lighter weight for most of it's models. It appears World Wide that the best sellers are: the Mercedes Benz E Class, Lexus 300, BMW 3 Series, and Audi A4 Series (not necessarily in that order). They all feature 6 cylinder engines! The extra premium cost of the V8, with it's obvious higher fuel requirements, may be the deciding factor in the viability of increased resistance against investing in larger more expensive engine architecture.
GM has over 100 years of manufacturing already under it's broad belt, if they go into their archives, I am sure that it can find, something of promise, that available technology can make outstanding and innovative use of. Back in the day, Northrop couldn't stabilize the YB-11 Flying Wing, but today with advanced computers we have the Stealth Bomber. Seeing one (the Stealth bomber) in flight is awesome, and it's a symbol that the USA is "World Class" in the production of Military Aircraft, there is nothing else like it! This is where Cadillac needs to go, back to it's roots, extract the best that was refine it and offer it at a popular price. Forget BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus for the time being, re-establish the desire for an Advanced Luxury Car. The CTS is a beginning, I believe too little of one, it should have been released as a whole line up, with a compliment of engines; 4, 6, and diesel, both Turbo and normally aspirated. I now see a sub-CTS if smoother smaller engines become available, and yes a full-sized Cadillac with V8 power is required: The full-size customer base has been really underestimated (more and more people are growing older each day, and comfort is universally appreciated as we age, and prosper).
In summation: Cancellation of a single engine design is not necessarily Brand Suicide, complacency is...
- 01-04-08 02:33 PM #32Cadillac Owners Fanatic
- Automobile(s): 1993 Fleetwood Brougham V4P
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: New V8 canceled
I would think GM has all intention of using the LS engines in the new CTS-V and the new STS-V when the Northstar goes away. I would think the DTS would get an LS engine too when it goes to the Zeta platform.
- 01-04-08 02:58 PM #33
Re: No new Northstar
Cadillacs were always BIG. Period. Now they're small. So maybe this is all just part of the plan (if they decide against going with v8s in the future). However, I'm pretty confident that the v8 isn't going away..
- 01-04-08 03:30 PM #34
Re: No new Northstar
If there is one positive, it's that the N* is finally being replaced one way or another with something new after (by then) an interesting 17 year run.
- 01-04-08 03:42 PM #35
Re: No New V8 For Cadillac
Cadillac first went to the V8 in 1915 after years of single and four cylinder engines. At the time, it was considered a major offensive move, since it trumped then closest competitor Packard, which was running.....V6s. The 90 degree V8 has never been matched for balance and smooth operation in a compact and relatively lightweight package. Cadillac's switch to a V8 as it's sole engine set off the cylinder wars that produced the legendary V12s and V16s of the Classic Era, and spelled the end of the straight 8, which could not compete with the V8 in terms of packaging, refinement, or durability.
If Cadillac wants to use a V6 as an entry level motor, that's fine. Olds and Buick used to do it back when, and companies like MB do it today. But, a true luxury brand should always have a V8 or better as the flagship engine. People who want the cache of the larger engine will happily pay the premium and taxes and extra fuel costs and whatever else the government nanny state wants to throw in to force us to be good boys and girls.
Like Lord Cadillac, I would not be unhappy to see the 350 make a comeback in the RWD replacement for the STS/DTS. I'd be even happier to see a V16 flagship with impeccable styling inside and out that makes no apologies and takes no prisoners. But I'll settle for the RWD 350.
- 01-04-08 03:54 PM #36
Re: No new Northstar
That's totally shocking . What makes American cars so special and more valuable over other brands have been their styling,engines,ride comfort etc . Now, it really makes me feel so baffling is that one of those elements to be no longer available .
That sucks ,the premium American car will get only V6 ? I hope this is a joke or miscalculation still my logic is on the other way .
I love the way V8 sounds and no way you can get such a cracking sound out of V6 .There is another discrepancy IMO .While other luxury car makers continue making V8 engines in their high end cars why on earth Cadillac not to use it ? This makes nothing but brings the brand image down !
Fuel costs ? My V8 cars don't use more fuel than German and Brits V6 engines at the same given conditions .
V8 is a totally great engine and yet prestigious . Jaguar's very first V8 engines got catastrophic failure but they've insistently used it and result has been almost perfect ! Even Jag sticked to their faulty V8's why the blah blah blah GM cancels it , I can't understand and nobody will change my mind and convince me on that
You may not use a V8 engine in Buick,Chevy,Pontiac but Cadillac is a leading brand .
- 01-04-08 04:05 PM #37
Re: No New V8 For CadillacYou're being a bit of an alarmist.The V6 is pushing 300+hp naturally aspirated, which is more power than the original Northstar in a much lighter engine. That is at 3.6L (the engine was designed to go to 4.0L). Why would you need a V8 if a V6 does the same job but better?
for example the fact that it gets better gas mileage.
But in terms of performance it's not better.
2008 STS stats:
Direct injection V6: 302 hp at 6,300 rpm and 252 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm
Northstar V8 VVT: 320 hp at 6,400 rpm and 315 lb-ft at 4,400 rpm
252lb/ft at a lofty 5,200rpm is not better than 315lb/ft at a lower and more useable 4,400rpm.
Looking at the 08 CTS figures for the DI vs non DI engines there is about 15.5% extra HP and 8% extra torque in the DI engine.
Applying that to the current STS Northstar V8 that would give 370HP and 340lb/ft
All of a sudden ponying up the extra $6,000 for the V8 seems worth it to me...
- 01-04-08 05:10 PM #38
Re: No new Northstar
Yeah, what I'm getting from everyone's posts here is what really makes a Cadillac a Cadillac anymore... My Caddy's have always had more room for feet and legs than any BMW I've been in.
I can't wait for NAIAS in a few weeks. I'm bringing a tape measure for leg room research!
- 01-06-08 09:38 PM #39
Re: No new Northstar
GM is not alone. This is what Ford is doing, but see for yourselve:
DETROIT -- The 2009 Lincoln MKS will be the first Ford Motor Co. vehicle that uses a new performance and fuel economy boosting technology that features gasoline direct injection and two turbochargers. Ford calls the system EcoBoost and claims it will deliver up to 20 percent better fuel economy.
Derrick Kuzak, Ford's group vice president of Global Product Development, says Ford will use EcoBoost on as many as 500,000 vehicles within the next five years.
The 2009 MKS will be available with an optional 3.5-liter V-6 EcoBoost engine that develops 340-horsepower. It will be an all-wheel drive sedan. Ford says fuel economy is improved by 2 mpg in the MKS with EcoBoost, while emissions are down 15 percent. Performance is about the same as a car with a 4.6-liter V-8. Ford expects higher fuel ecocnomy gains in vehicles that use smaller engines, such as the Focus.
Automakers are revamping their powertrain and future product plans to comply with stricter fuel economy regulations that require an automaker's fleet to average 35 mpg by 2020.
"EcoBoost is meaningful because it can be applied across a wide variety of engine types in a range of vehicles, from small cars to large trucks," Kuzak said.
Ford has not said how much EcoBoost will cost consumers. But the technology is cutting edge, and it isn't cheap. The direct injection system sprays gasoline directly into each cylinder. To work with the turbocharger, direct injection requires a greater number of sensors, more software and a faster computer than a conventional engine.
The payback, however, could come quicker for consumers than if they bought a hybrid or a diesel. Kuzak said a diesel engine takes seven years to pay for itself, while a hybrid requires 12 years. The EcoBoost system should pay for itself in 30 months, he said.
Ford also plans to use EcoBoost on four cylinder engines. When used with a four-cylinder engine, EcoBoost will use only one turbocharger, said spokesman Said Deep. He said the 2009 MKS with EcoBoost will not be at the North American Internation Auto Show in Detroit, but a concept vehicle called the Explorer America, will have the system.
Another way Ford plans to boost fuel economy is by reducing weight. During a December Detroit auto show preview event with reporters, Kuzak said Ford's goal is reduce the weight of its vehicles between 250 and 750 pounds. He didn't say how Ford accomplish its goal or when the weight reductions would start.
- 01-07-08 01:17 PM #40Cadillac Owners Fanatic
- Automobile(s): past 88 Deville
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
Northstars are going away???
I hope they don't go the way Lincolns are going with the v6
- 01-07-08 01:46 PM #41
Re: Northstars are going away???
I think it will bring some humiliation to the brand as well . V8 is a must for the top American luxury car
- 01-07-08 02:18 PM #42
Re: Northstars are going away???
Let's just hope they don't shove another 4.1L Buick V6 in there.
- 01-12-08 08:02 AM #43Cadillac Owners Member
- Automobile(s): Formerly 06 DTS
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Jupiter, Florida
GM cancels V8 program for luxury cars
GM said today that it has canceled plans to build a new advanced double
overhead-cam V8 engine for its luxury cars. GM said a year ago that it
would be investing $300 million in its Tonawanda, N.Y., engine plant for a
new V8 engine. The engine was scheduled to start production in 2009 and
was to be used in GM’s luxury cars.
GM’s powertrain spokesman said that the project is now completely dead,
making the future of V8 Cadillacs unclear. The new V8 engine was expected
to replace Cadillac’s Northstar V8 which will end production in 2010.
Besides for the XLR, Cadillac is now expected to switch to a high-powered
Cadillac spokesman Kevin Smith said, “We’ve really seen the V6 become the
predominant engine in sales on the (2008) STS because it’s so close in
power to the V8.” He also said that the V6 unit is about 150 to 200 pounds
lighter than the V8.
Oh the effects of the CAFE 35. More depressing news like this is expected to
come in the following months.
- 01-12-08 10:44 AM #44
Re: GM cancels V8 program for luxury cars
Really sorry to hear that. The DTS I have now, is my 12th Cadillac. All of them have been V8's.
Maybe they will put a detuned version of the 6.2 V8 that they are going to put in the XLR V and the CTS V into the DTS. I sure hope so. My son recently bought a new GMC Denali with the 6.2. Smooth, very powerful and gets a lot better mileage than I figured it would.
In the last few years, when I have had one of the DTS's in for service, most of the time they have loaned me a CTS for a driver. The following is just my OWN PERSONAL OPINION. If CTS drivers want to flame me... I will (mostly) ignore it.
I am not impressed with them at all. Some of them have been base units and some of them have been more upscale units. None of them have impressed me at all as being a REAL CADILLAC.
Have driven a couple of the sport models. They are fun to drive ... for a short time. Performance is OK and they handle well. I have used various ones to make little 250 to 300 mile trips.
They totally KILL my lower back and especially my hips. I can drive one nonstop for 2 hours and almost need help getting out of it. The seats and ergonomics just do not fit me at all.
Driving around town... they remind me more of an Acura TL or TSX than a Cadillac.
Needless to say.. I would never buy one.
Had an SRX, V6, fairly base unit, the last time. Underpowered and unimpressive to me. Driving EASY on the interstate... could just BARELY get 20 MPG out of it.
My V8 Performance Sedan will beat the heck out of THAT and is smoother and quieter. At least the CTS's would get mid to upper 20's.
Jim from Texas
- 01-12-08 02:29 PM #45
GM To Be Destroyed By Environmentalism – AGAIN!
This time around GM deserves to die. It appears that GM did not learn a single lesson from its near extinction in the 1980s, and one would think that its recent close call with bankruptcy just a few short years ago would have lead to an epiphany. Instead, they are going back to their failed ways of trying to be a little something for everyone, and not being particularly good at anything. At least when the obituary is read, it will be written that GM was a good steward of the planet.
I have just learned that GM is canceling production of a new V-8 slated to replace the aging Northstar V-8.
Instead, GM will utilize yet another monotonous V-6 to replace the Northstar V-8 on its luxury vehicles. GM has just lost this and many future customers, no doubt in an effort to satisfy CAFE standards – the very same CAFE standards that nearly led to its extinction just two decades ago. Lexus, BMW and Mercedes here I come.
I guess GM concludes that V-6 engines in Acura and entry level BMW and Mercedes models have been so popular that they too will be popular in a Cadillac. What GM fails to realize is that barring a V-8, what other reason is there to buy a Cadillac? It certainly isn’t quality, as Cadillac quality and workmanship, as those of us who have gotten to know everyone in Cadillac service departments on a first name basis can attest. It isn’t because a Cadillac is considered trendy or sporty, given the average age of a Cadillac buyer is well up into AARP territory. And it isn’t because Cadillac buyers simply like big cars, because there was always the less expensive V-6 Park Avenue and Lucerne which never sold well. So I think its safe to say Cadillac buyers buy a Cadillac for its large, smooth, powerful V-8 engines. So what does GM do? Cancel production of ALL its V-8 engines!
Meanwhile, BMW and Mercedes can’t build 7-Series and S-Class models with V-8 and V-12 engines carrying six-figure plus price tags fast enough.
In the mid-to-late 1980s, GM almost became extinct in large part due to downsizing in order to meet C.A.F.E. standards. The luxury divisions were nearly decimated in 1985 and 1986 with their vastly smaller, lighter, fuel-efficient poor excuse for transportation vehicles. Buyers were willing to accept lesser-powered V-8s and even diesels in the late 1970s and early 1980s so long as they were large, comfortable and V-8 powered. GM introduced the Buick V-6 into its luxury vehicles in 1981-1982. It was as repulsive then as it is now. And let’s not even mention the 85 HP diesel V-6 in 1985. But GM keeps flogging dead V-6 engines, none of which could be characterized as stellar.
The fortunes at GM and Cadillac gradually began shifting by the end of the 1980s, not because Cadillac’s became more fuel efficient and “green” – quite the opposite – they grew because larger and more powerful. And the Cadillac revival really began in earnest in 1994 with the introduction the Northstar V-8 – its most powerful engine in decades. Instead of building on that momentum, GM kills the very engine that led Cadillac to victory – all in the name of saving fuel and the environment. And the stupid JACKASS GM executives will sit there scratching their heads AGAIN wondering just what went wrong. GM given history, no doubt the remedy won’t be a better V-8, but a more fuel-efficient I-4 instead.
Looks like it is de ja vous thanks again to environmentalism.
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