What Do You Think Are The Most Hideous Abominations on The Road?

[hardrockcamaro@mac.c]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

Pretty much anything with one of these under the hood. Funny how crappy engineering and reliability can make exterior bodywork look ugly. But it does.

Are you crazy?!?!




The Northstar is one of the finest engines ever made.

It's smooth, quiet and powerful with some innovative features like the zero coolant limp home mode.

It practically saved Cadillac, and introduced the marque to an important younger audience.

I've met many people in the UK who only have a passing interest in cars, are not aware Cadillac ever sold any here, and even they have heard of it.

A higher than average number of head gasket failures don't make it a total rightoff. Most engines have some intrinsic flaw, many mid 90s M3's had serious problems with their aluminium heads falling apart, the Rover k series engine had major head gasket problems all its (very long) life.

As far as I'm concerned I wouldn't touch a cadillac that didn't have one. The older ones were under powered and the Chevy V8 powered ones are simple a non-exclusive engine which lets down the prestige of the car.


Now, if you were to say the Catara I'd agree with you...

[Eric Kahn]

to me the Pontiac aztec is one of the ugliest things ever put on the road
and the 4.9 used before the northstar is quite powerful, it just has a low horsepower rating (200) since it was designed for low end torque, what you use in driving 99% of the time

[Rodya234]

The 4.9 is the best Cadillac engine ever. Period.

Remember that horsepower can be thought of as a measure of torque at RPM. The 4.9 only has a lower horsepower rating because it makes it's torque at a low RPM. The Northstar has more horsepower because it continues making torque at a higher RPM band, due to its DOHC design. However, max torque is actually quite similar for both engines. (The biggest difference between the two in torque is only 25lb-ft.)

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by hardrockcamaro@mac.c

The Northstar is one of the finest engines ever made.

It's smooth, quiet and powerful with some innovative features like the zero coolant limp home mode.

It practically saved Cadillac, and introduced the marque to an important younger audience.

What makes it one of the "finest engines made"? Is it the power output or the reliability?

Originally Posted by hardrockcamaro@mac.c

A higher than average number of head gasket failures don't make it a total rightoff. Most engines have some intrinsic flaw, many mid 90s M3's had serious problems with their aluminium heads falling apart, the Rover k series engine had major head gasket problems all its (very long) life.

I go to a lot of auctions, many have cars in them. EVERYTIME there is a N* powered car in the auction there are always people standing and talking near them during preview about how they should be avoided and how problem prone they and about the H/G issues. I'd say that in the long run the N* hurt Cadillacs reputation severely. Notice how cheap Cadillacs are in the used car market? Limp home wasn't innovative it was necessary.

[hardrockcamaro@mac.c]

I agree low-mid torque is more useful, especially with heavy cars.

The Northstar matched the torque figure (and even exceeded it) with a smaller engine, but of course it is waker lower down with the headline figure only really arriving at around 3,500-4k.

Still a great engine though, happy to provide good off the line performance on the lightest of throttle for normal driving in near silence, but will scream to the rev line at well over 6,000rpm and pull like a freight train while doing so. And sounds quite nice doing it. A real Jekyll and Hyde engine.

Mind you the only place online I see putting this engine down is this forum.
It always amazes me how the whole issue gets blown way out of proportion by a lot of people on here...


While we didn't get many Northstars in the UK, probably around 1,000 in the initial 98-02 run I'd say, I only know of one with a blown head gasket (and it's a small world over here). I know of a lot of mid 90's V6 Mustangs with blown head gaskets though, and a lot of burnt out TH700R4 transmissions. I've seen a lot of blown head gaskets on small block Chevy's too along with various other "common problems. Maybe out 98 on Sevilles are just too new to display many symptoms? Who knows...

Sadly if mine eventually goes the car will have to go in the bin as places over here aren't set up to deal with them which means it would be a $5,000+ repair, which is probably the same as what the car is worth...



Anyhow, sorry for going off topic...


I submit this, the Lancia Thesis:



It sells at over $60,000 new....

It's worse because it's Italian. I expect a better sense of style from them. This looks like a Huyndai...

[Destroyer]

Originally Posted by Sevillian273

That El-Camino-Testarossa-Camaro is from Ashland, Kentucky. Go figure.

I still think its friggin cool!

But not as cool as the 4x4 Neon!!

I agree. I'd take that Neon over a stock one anyday!

[hardrockcamaro@mac.c]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

What makes it one of the "finest engines made"? Is it the power output or the reliability?


I go to a lot of auctions, many have cars in them. EVERYTIME there is a N* powered car in the auction there are always people standing and talking near them during preview about how they should be avoided and how problem prone they and about the H/G issues. I'd say that in the long run the N* hurt Cadillacs reputation severely. Notice how cheap Cadillacs are in the used car market? Limp home wasn't innovative it was necessary.

So what percentage of Northstar cars cars suffer from head gasket failure and what is the industry average percentage? I bet the numbers are a lot closer than you'd think. While the cars may well have a higher rate of head gasket failure than many others they're no the only engines with that issue (higher than industry average hg failure). but reading on here you'd think every single one is going to have a very early death. Heck after buying mine I joined here and thought I'd made a huge mistake. Almost 4 years and 50 thousand miles later and no signs of any problems (but meticulous maintenance by me) I'm glad I ignored this place.

Any car can fail, some will fail more than others due to an intrinsic flaw in the design or manufacturing process. But this forum writes off all cars with that engine as if it's a guaranteed thing.

I'll bet you that the number of Northstars on the road that got to say 10(?) years old without a head gasket problem *massively* outweigh those that didn't. And I mean MASSIVELY. I bet the ones that dies of HG death are a single digit percentage, if that.

[orconn]

Originally Posted by hardrockcamaro@mac.c

I agree low-mid torque is more useful, especially with heavy cars.

The Northstar matched the torque figure (and even exceeded it) with a smaller engine, but of course it is waker lower down with the headline figure only really arriving at around 3,500-4k.

Still a great engine though, happy to provide good off the line performance on the lightest of throttle for normal driving in near silence, but will scream to the rev line at well over 6,000rpm and pull like a freight train while doing so. And sounds quite nice doing it. A real Jekyll and Hyde engine.

Mind you the only place online I see putting this engine down is this forum.
It always amazes me how the whole issue gets blown way out of proportion by a lot of people on here...


While we didn't get many Northstars in the UK, probably around 1,000 in the initial 98-02 run I'd say, I only know of one with a blown head gasket (and it's a small world over here). I know of a lot of mid 90's V6 Mustangs with blown head gaskets though, and a lot of burnt out TH700R4 transmissions. I've seen a lot of blown head gaskets on small block Chevy's too along with various other "common problems. Maybe out 98 on Sevilles are just too new to display many symptoms? Who knows...

Sadly if mine eventually goes the car will have to go in the bin as places over here aren't set up to deal with them which means it would be a $5,000+ repair, which is probably the same as what the car is worth...



Anyhow, sorry for going off topic...


I submit this, the Lancia Thesis:



It sells at over $60,000 new....

It's worse because it's Italian. I expect a better sense of style from them. This looks like a Huyndai...

When the Italians get it wrong they really get it wrong ....... the Lancia in your picture does look like a Hyundai. Actually what appears to be a older Lancia behind the maroon car looks better. Neither one looks like a $60K car.

[Rodya234]

Originally Posted by hardrockcamaro@mac.c

Any car can fail, some will fail more than others due to an intrinsic flaw in the design or manufacturing process. But this forum writes off all cars with that engine as if it's a guaranteed thing.

The worst years for N* head gaskets are '97-'99. According to the poll on the N* forum, these years account for 68% of the total number. The ones before '97 and after '99 seem to be MUCH less trouble prone; these years account for about 2% (each) of the total head gasket problems, according to the poll.

According to this information, there must have been a manufacturing anomaly between 1997 and 1999.

[Caddyshack100]

I am really impressed Hardrock that you were able to put 50k miles on your car in England, with your traffic you must be avoiding London...lol

However as for Road Abominations in my humble opinion only

The Nissan Murono/Infinity 45/35 or whatever number they use for it.. Total Pregnant Egg on wheels
GM cross overs (see above)

[gary88]

Oh wow I completely forgot how much I hate the new Infiniti EX35. I could just barely tolerate the looks of the FX35, but this is just game over.

[hueterm]

Originally Posted by Rodya234

The worst years for N* head gaskets are '97-'99. According to the poll on the N* forum, these years account for 68% of the total number. The ones before '97 and after '99 seem to be MUCH less trouble prone; these years account for about 2% (each) of the total head gasket problems, according to the poll.

According to this information, there must have been a manufacturing anomaly between 1997 and 1999.

Well, let's keep our fingers crossed that this is correct. I have a '95 and an '00.

[orconn]

Originally Posted by Rodya234

The worst years for N* head gaskets are '97-'99. According to the poll on the N* forum, these years account for 68% of the total number. The ones before '97 and after '99 seem to be MUCH less trouble prone; these years account for about 2% (each) of the total head gasket problems, according to the poll.

According to this information, there must have been a manufacturing anomaly between 1997 and 1999.

I agree with hueterm; my wife's '93 STS went from 48k miles to 96k miles with no head gasket. My '95 STS is on its'fifth year with me and gone from 42k miles to 77k miles again with no headgasket problems. My wife's 2002 SLS is going on two years gone from 23k miles to 36k miles so far no problems other than maintenance. So I too will be hoping for the best from these cars.

[Eld01]

Originally Posted by orconn

The Pontiac Aztec springs immediately to mind. I don't know how they drive, but their looks would justify a class action lawsuit on behalf of the Mexican people for defamation of their national heritage! Think not, what if it had been called the "Canuck" instead of the Aztek ... I'll bet our neighbors to the North would have closed the borders and embargoed all American cars.

I agree. I hate the Aztec.

[93DevilleUSMC]

Originally Posted by hardrockcamaro@mac.c

Are you crazy?!?!




The Northstar is one of the finest engines ever made.

It's smooth, quiet and powerful with some innovative features like the zero coolant limp home mode.

It practically saved Cadillac, and introduced the marque to an important younger audience.

I've met many people in the UK who only have a passing interest in cars, are not aware Cadillac ever sold any here, and even they have heard of it.

A higher than average number of head gasket failures don't make it a total rightoff. Most engines have some intrinsic flaw, many mid 90s M3's had serious problems with their aluminium heads falling apart, the Rover k series engine had major head gasket problems all its (very long) life.

As far as I'm concerned I wouldn't touch a cadillac that didn't have one. The older ones were under powered and the Chevy V8 powered ones are simple a non-exclusive engine which lets down the prestige of the car.


Now, if you were to say the Catara I'd agree with you...

His `98 Deville blew a headgasket on him and he's been on here crying about it, and anything else he doesn't like, ever since.