: Motor Oil is Killing our Cars / LONG / OT



slc
02-01-07, 10:32 PM
Ok, I stumbled uppon this item but from what I am reading, this has been going on since 2002.....Funny I have not seen any mention of it here yet.:canttalk: ...

What do you think of what is being said???????:annoyed:


From UltraVan (email address removed by admin - not allowed)
Granted, the UV engines are a little older than ours, but not all that
much; '63 to '69.

Oil is Killing our Cars

By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com (http://www.ForeignPartsPositively.com)
360-882-3596

Oil is Killing our cars Part I

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate
(ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding
and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals
in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting
to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only
thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct
break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major
suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API
(American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and
performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are
using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an
unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated
oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They
continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube.

They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are
needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary.
Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually
available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)
Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short
discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that
couldn't rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He
has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the
"bad news" we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They
have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in
the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically
for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability
benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by
replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been
required to remove from the off the-shelf oil".

<<< CONTINUED >>>

Oil is Killing our cars Part 3

Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in
the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been
very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our
cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:

#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in!
10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will
destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of
protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We
are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as
these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag
and has the additive package we need.

#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation"
oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other
chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing
pollution.
We don't have catalytic converters (mentioned to a specific group) and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is
attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the
molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and
friction.
This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and
tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat
tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the
surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist
pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly
bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer
to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems;
lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage,
by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol
20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.

New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do
best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

Submariner409
02-02-07, 10:06 AM
:banghead: By the time we get through ZDDP, Marvel Mystery Oil, Slick 50, GM EOS, CompCams breakin lube, Rotella, Joe Gibbs Racing, Seafoams, and all the variants, this thread will go to 20 pages. Bets, anyone???:halo:

eldorado1
02-02-07, 10:19 AM
It is completely 100% true.

Run your engine on oil without the star.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/97283-starburst-oil.html

Submariner409
02-02-07, 10:42 AM
Didn't say it wasn't true...it is. BUT, we've been there before. Look in the tech archives.

eldorado1
02-02-07, 11:09 AM
Of course we have! We go there every week! It's the weekly "Oil Thread" field trip. :hitstick:

billytheshoe
02-02-07, 04:20 PM
Oil nowadays most is so good all you have to do is keep the level up & change it. Don't run it low. It helps alot to change it periodically. I don't think alot of you understand that the oil not only lubicates the internal engine parts, it is also is a key part of the cooling system.

slc
02-02-07, 07:16 PM
Well it is interesting to see the remarks from this thread. It shows that most have no idea what has happened in the last year or so in the industry.

The element that is mentioned as removed is the only thing that kept engines running without damage. In the past, with this element in the oil, NO IT WAS NOT AN ADDITIVE ANYONE JUST BOUGHT OFF THE SHELF, the oil industry added it to preserve your engine parts and had added it for as lone as oil has been used in engines. This element allowed engines to run 30 years without damage. Without this element, shops are seeing damage in as little as 3 years.

The comment that all oil is good, well, good luck. Most of the oils have had this element removed, thanks to an agreement by the government and EPA.

There are not many oils that will keep you running now. Most of your familiar oils are affected by this new law.

There are precious few oils now that have the needed element to prevent massive engine wear and the one you are using is probably NOT one of the oils you should use.

The environment of oils has changed, its not the old school anymore and the formulas are changing, for the worse.

You think your everyday oils will do the job? Good luck and start saving for your next engine. You only have about 3 years to save up if you are not using an oil with this element or adding an additive to stop excessive wear that your oils can no longer prevent.

I posted this, appearantly many others have as well, because I ;thought some of you might want to keep your engines running more than 3 years. I hope I was right.

Good luck

Ranger
02-02-07, 08:18 PM
SLC,
The "element" (ZDDP) has not been removed. It has been reduced. If it were as bad as you say, auto makers would be replacing engines left and right while still under warranty. They are not going to stand still for that type of oil to be put on the market. I am sure todays oils have been thoroughly tested by the oil companies as well as the auto makers. The liability is massive if they are inferior. While there is truth to the article (reduced ZDDP levels), I think there is a bit or wolf crying there. I'll bet the trial lawyers are salivating if they read that article.

97STS4ME
02-03-07, 06:43 PM
I posted this, appearantly many others have as well, because I ;thought some of you might want to keep your engines running more than 3 years. I hope I was right.

That's why you CHANGE THE OIL!
What kills engines is the extended drian intervals being used by the car manufacturers these days. They run the oil longer than it is meant to be used. Consumers complain about Too frequent visits to the dealership to hae the oil chaned, so car companies are extending drain intervals to appease the customers. Change your oil at 3000 miles and the problems with premature wear are greatly reduced.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! Hmmm I think I see the problem there...

Ranger
02-03-07, 08:15 PM
What kills engines is the extended drian intervals being used by the car manufacturers these days. They run the oil longer than it is meant to be used. Consumers complain about Too frequent visits to the dealership to hae the oil chaned, so car companies are extending drain intervals to appease the customers. Change your oil at 3000 miles and the problems with premature wear are greatly reduced.

Where do you get this information from?

eldorado1
02-03-07, 09:02 PM
SLC,
The "element" (ZDDP) has not been removed. It has been reduced. If it were as bad as you say, auto makers would be replacing engines left and right while still under warranty. They are not going to stand still for that type of oil to be put on the market. I am sure todays oils have been thoroughly tested by the oil companies as well as the auto makers. The liability is massive if they are inferior. While there is truth to the article (reduced ZDDP levels), I think there is a bit or wolf crying there. I'll bet the trial lawyers are salivating if they read that article.

That's fine and dandy, except for one little problem - most of us here are probably not under warranty. For people with 2000+ northstars, none of this really applies because you have roller cam followers. And chances are you're still under warranty anyways. So my question to you is - do you really think auto makers care about your car that's no longer under warranty?

A subquestion of that would be - would it be beneficial to automakers to cause premature wear to an engine and car which is (presumably) fully paid for and no longer under warranty? :duck:

(wow, normally I step away from conspiracy theories...) While that's probably not the sole specific motivation, I'm sure it doesn't hurt.

Some more reading can be found here:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/

In regards to the frequent oil changes.... take a sample of your oil and send it to a lab to be tested. You'll probably be surprised how long you can go before they (the lab) say you should change your oil. Blackened oil doesn't mean it's bad yet...

dkozloski
02-03-07, 09:53 PM
Why not add a can of GM EOS everytime you change oil. Probably 1/2 a can would do the job. That'll supply more ZDDP than you can shake a stick at. Isn't that easier than trying to reinvent the wheel?

eldorado1
02-03-07, 10:22 PM
Why not add a can of GM EOS everytime you change oil. Probably 1/2 a can would do the job. That'll supply more ZDDP than you can shake a stick at. Isn't that easier than trying to reinvent the wheel?

Reinvent what wheel?

EOS works. "Diesel" oil works (i.e. Rotella). Mobile 1 "extended performance" works. There are plenty of off the shelf options available.

You don't have to crack petroleum or anything... :D

dkozloski
02-03-07, 10:27 PM
Reinvent what wheel?

EOS works. "Diesel" oil works (i.e. Rotella). Mobile 1 "extended performance" works. There are plenty of off the shelf options available.

You don't have to crack petroleum or anything... :D

What I was getting at was that if you add some EOS it doesn't matter what kind of oil you use; even reclaimed crankcase drainings.

Ranger
02-04-07, 04:21 PM
So my question to you is - do you really think auto makers care about your car that's no longer under warranty?
To an extent, yes. how long do you think they would last if all their engines needed replacement after the warranty ran out? I am quite sure they are concerned about their reliability reputation. It can mean life or death.

eldorado1
02-04-07, 05:06 PM
I don't mean instant death after the warranty runs out...

What I can see happening is this-

From the top levels are orders to reduce emissions. now. Engineers get together to see what they can do. ZDDP gets put on the chopping block, and current engines are modified to cope without it. However - the vehicles already out there will wear out 50,000 miles faster. So instead of making it to 250k, they'll die at 200k. (or 100k instead of 150k) Long after the warranty expires... Reducing emissions now is worth more than the reduced life of the vehicles already on the road in terms of brand reputation. On top of that, most people think over 100k miles is "end of life" anyways. That perception is changing though.

MonzaRacer
02-06-07, 07:08 PM
Ok so I asked several of my old customers about engine problems that own Caddys. and one fella still has the first N* his dealer sold, to him and it has 364k on it, his daughter drives it.
His son has a N* 2 yrs newerjust clicked over 300K, his wifes car has over 260K on it.
His present Cady has 210K on it and he has always used simple Valvoline 10W30 all his life. One of the cars has had head gaskets but I am not sure which one. He has his family change oil beetween 2500 and 3K and so far we havent seen any problems.
I do agree the rduction of ZDDP can cause problems but I do believe that the extended oil changes are stupid ,period.And this is from a Certified Tech and engine builder,,,me. 25+yrs of experience and lots of engine builds(and trust me small block and big block chevys are a heck of a lot harder on cams than N*) and so far I havent seen any problem except from the new and improved extended length oil changes.
My grand father always said that oil needs to be changed regularly and I still preach changes. But I also like using synthetics more now too.
I have been using synthetic for almost 10 yrs and before I used Rotella T like my dad did.
But I also dont like the newer oild and what they looked like coming out of engine with long oil changes on it.
I can believe that if you try to stretch out oilchanges and then they reduce certain anti wear additives nad replace them with other products. do they work as well only time will tell.
I remember hearing horror stories about split weight motor oils too and look at what we see now, everything is split weight.
so far I am not seeing any problems and have sevral people using flat tappet cams in high wear engines that are repeatedly abused(re dragraced) and we freshen them every spring and so far I have only seen one cam with bad lifters and the cam/lifters were 5 yrs old.
now most of these guys are now simply running typical over the counter 10w30 or 10w40 motor oil. No racing oil for these guys. Most of these guys have backed off from high dollar race setups anymore.
I have real doubts, that if properly serviced (as most of these cars are driven several days each week and to the tracks) your going to see a great difference.
Now if you all try to run 5k 6k 7k or even more on one change then yes I figure your going to see problems. My honest ,professional opinion is that you stopp trying to drive expensive luxury cars and cheap out out on oil service intervals.
If you cant afford to spend $20 to $25 bucks every 3000 mile then maybe we need to have people drive cheaper cars.
Then money not spent on fancy cars can be spent on oil changes for the smaller cars.
Sorry had to throw that out.
Change oil regularly.

BodybyFisher
02-07-07, 07:32 AM
Why not add a can of GM EOS everytime you change oil. Probably 1/2 a can would do the job. That'll supply more ZDDP than you can shake a stick at. Isn't that easier than trying to reinvent the wheel?

This is a good suggestion and one that I will probably undertake with each oil change from now on.

If I recall, the guru mentioned that an extra dose of GM EOS is used at engine assembly for the break-in period.

By the way, what caused this reduction in ZDDP, I really hope its not the environmentalists on the attack again...

See this on the foam used on the shuttle:
http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/000764.html

See this on DDT:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/942675/posts

See this on Flame Retardants:
http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_whelan_on_pbdes.060514.htm

Now with this change, does the Oil Life Monitor need to be revised for the reduced ZDDP package? Can a new OLM algorithm be flashed into the PCM if necessary if the ZDDP is reduced below what the OLM was calibrated for? So in effect by reducing the ZDDP package we will use more oil as our oil changes will be more frequent?

Ranger
02-07-07, 04:24 PM
Yes it is for environmental reasons. ZDDP is not good for the CAT so they are reducing the level for that reason.

Submariner409
02-07-07, 04:59 PM
:cool: Curiously, the label on a pint of GM EOS specifically cautions against using EOS or any other supplement as an additive in motor oils for GM gasoline engines. EOS is recommended for breakin of flat tappet cammed engines only. Now my 5 new pints of EOS will sit on the shelf until I finish 2 more Olds 455 boat engines this spring.

AlBundy
02-07-07, 08:30 PM
Qoute:BodybyFisher:
Now with this change, does the Oil Life Monitor need to be revised for the reduced ZDDP package? Can a new OLM algorithm be flashed into the PCM if necessary if the ZDDP is reduced below what the OLM was calibrated for? So in effect by reducing the ZDDP package we will use more oil as our oil changes will be more frequent?

That's a very good point. At what level of ZDDP was the OLM marked for. With all this -ZDDP rated oil now, it should be considered. Can any of you N*/GM Techs guys answer this. I'm not parinoid. I would just like to know.

mtflight
02-08-07, 12:17 PM
I posted this on other threads. But it appears that even the diesel oils have reduced ZDDP (the newer ones).

The new CJ-4 is what I'm referring to.

The CI-4 is the one that we're recommending.

So how much ZDDP is in EOS? I wonder what the balance is: how much to add to base stock oil (with low ZDDP) in order to restore it to acceptable levels (i.e., those back when the engine was designed).

And sad news: I don't think anyone is going to care to reflash any revised OLM code on older vehicles... they just won't care enough to go through the trouble of revising it.

I'd normally be the last to suggest this, but ZDDP gets used up progressively... until it is depleted. This means that when you have an fresh oil change you're fine. But then it begins to deplete... so the OLM would ideally be revised to reflect changes.... if not, then the choices are adding ZDDP or changing oil sooner (on the flat tappet engines N* from 93-99).

clarkz71
02-08-07, 12:23 PM
So how much ZDDP is in EOS?


More then enough for oil life. Almost every camshaft manufacturer recommends it for break in.


from http://www.4secondsflat.com/Hydraulic_lifter_cams.html

Valve Adjustment, Cam Break-In - Hydraulic Lifters


IMPORTANT UPDATE:
We highly recommend that you use a pint of GM EOS, engine oil supplement to ensure a good break-in, we wil not sell a cam without a pint of EOS and we insist that it be used for break-in. No exceptions

eldorado1
02-08-07, 01:17 PM
I posted this on other threads. But it appears that even the diesel oils have reduced ZDDP (the newer ones).

The new CJ-4 is what I'm referring to.

The CI-4 is the one that we're recommending.


Do you have any additional information on that?

clarkz71
02-08-07, 01:54 PM
Do you have any additional information on that?



http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/press_release_2006/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/press_release_2006/cj-4_intro_1006.html

mtflight
02-08-07, 03:14 PM
Do you have any additional information on that?

"Is Shell Rotella® T motor oil going to have less zinc in 2007?

Yes. The API CJ-4 (next generation) Shell ROTELLA® T multigrade motor oil will have a slightly lower level of zinc than the current API API CI-4 PLUS Shell ROTELLA® T. Zinc is typically used as part of the anti-wear system within the oil. "

http://www.shell-lubricants.com/CJ4/cj4_faq.html

BodybyFisher
02-08-07, 04:00 PM
This is a very interesting thread

eldorado1
02-08-07, 04:02 PM
How much is "slightly lower"?

Ranger
02-08-07, 05:01 PM
Choices:
Shorten the OLM interval
Add EOS
use Rotella, Delvac or Delo (but can only find them in 15W40) :mad:
do nothing (maybe we are over analyzing this)
I'm so confused :bonkers:

clarkz71
02-08-07, 05:04 PM
Choices:
Shorten the OLM interval
Add EOS
use Rotella, Delvac or Delo (but can only find them in 15W40) :mad:
do nothing (maybe we are over analyzing this)
I'm so confused :bonkers:


O'Riellys has Rotella in 10W-30

mtflight
02-08-07, 05:13 PM
Choices:
Shorten the OLM interval
Add EOS
use Rotella, Delvac or Delo (but can only find them in 15W40) :mad:
do nothing (maybe we are over analyzing this)
I'm so confused :bonkers:

Ranger, a "wise man" once said:


"They [Today's Oils] are not "better" in that they give more wear protection.....

More modern, current production engines are designed to run with the minimum ZDP oils and friction modified oils. Clearances are changed, designs are changed to add roller followers everywhere that are not ZDP dependent for preventing wear, wear surfaces are hardened where necessary, etc.....

Older engines designed for the SF and SG oils that had more ZDP in them are not as well protected against ZDP depleted oils.


...the newer oils probably are " barely" adequate in terms of anti-wear additives such as ZDP.

...if the engine is marginal for wear the ZDP depleted oil MIGHT cause a problem and accelerate wear. Certainly you would not want to use the newer ZDP reduced oils for long change intervals in the older engines.

An older 93 Northstar, for instance, has 32 rubbing element tappets (flat tappets) that require much more ZDP for protection against wear than the 2000 and later Northstars with roller tappets.

If you want to be sure your engine has the best wear protection you can do two things.
use one of the non-"gasoline engine" oils such as the diesel Rotella or Delvac or Delo oils. Those oils have much more anti-wear protection since they are also certified for diesel use.


The other thing you can do is to spike the oil you are using with extra ZDP by adding a pint or quart of GM EOS.

The EOS is available at any GM parts counter and is sold as an assembly lube. It is basically plain motor oil with a high concentration of ZDP that will fortify any crankcase fill with the extra ZDP desired for more anti-wear protection. It is the only oil "additive" I would ever recommend as it is specifically designed for this purpose.




If you look at the container of Rotella/Delvac/Delo oil you will see in the fine print that it meets all the API performance specs (combinations of the letters CC and CD, etc.) AND it meets the latest gasoline API performance specs such as SL or SM.

Now look at the ILSAC "for gasoline engine" oil across the isle in the autoparts store. Read the fine print. It meets the API SM specs but does NOT meet any of the diesel performance specs.

The diesel specific oil is a much "better" product in terms of wear protection if your engine needs it. Diesels have a much greater need for anti-wear protection due to the soot and combustion byproduct contamination of the oil due to the high compression and high cylinder pressures of the diesel engine so the oils for diesels have to be much better.

I would recommend the Rotella/Delvac/Delo oils for the 93-99 Northstars, personally. The latest ILSAC fuel economy oils are getting very low in ZDP concentration. Fine with the newest engines on the road but not so fine for a 93 Northstar.

clarkz71
02-08-07, 05:17 PM
Ranger, just go to O'Riellys and get the 10W-30 Rotella. I'm seriously considering switching from Mobil 1 EP to Rotella myself.:shhh:

mtflight
02-08-07, 05:37 PM
Do you have any additional information on that?


I just found this

"the new 15w40 CJ-4 has a 40% reduction in ZDDP which means that it's no better than the new SM automotive oil."

at: http://www.riderforums.com/showpost.php?p=313795&postcount=14

eldorado1
02-08-07, 06:04 PM
Jeebus!

BTW, in my humble opinion, you can't get much better than the synthetic Rotella T in 5w40. It has the high temperature stability of a synthetic with high ZDDP %. I will check if it is CI or CJ, it's possible it's just the "triple protection" or whatever it was called that is moving to CJ... *sigh*

2nd choice would be EOS with Mobil 1...

Glad to see you guys finally coming around.... I've only been saying this for a year now :bigroll: :thumbsup:

BodybyFisher
02-08-07, 08:08 PM
Jeebus!

BTW, in my humble opinion, you can't get much better than the synthetic Rotella T in 5w40. It has the high temperature stability of a synthetic with high ZDDP %. I will check if it is CI or CJ, it's possible it's just the "triple protection" or whatever it was called that is moving to CJ... *sigh*

2nd choice would be EOS with Mobil 1...

Glad to see you guys finally coming around.... I've only been saying this for a year now :bigroll: :thumbsup:

Hip Hip Hooray..... Many pats on the back :yup:

mtflight
02-08-07, 08:14 PM
eldorado1,

do you use synthetic because you don't have an oil cooler?

AlBundy
02-08-07, 08:18 PM
Thanks for the info guys and your right eldorado1 you have been saying that for a year.:D :histeric:

Ranger
02-08-07, 09:31 PM
Clark,
I don't have an O'Riellys near me. I'll have to look around, but I still have several gallons & cases of SuperTech (I keep well stocked). May have to shorten my change intervals.

Mtflight,
Did this "Wise Man" happen to address the 15W40 weight as 10W30 is hard to find in diesel applications.

eldorado1
02-08-07, 09:31 PM
eldorado1,

do you use synthetic because you don't have an oil cooler?

Yes.

But if I did have one, I'd still use it. Places where heat and oil mix (pistons, rings) will suffer oil degradation whether you have an oil cooler or not.

The advantages are just too great for the minor price difference you pay.

eldorado1
02-08-07, 09:35 PM
Ranger, just go to O'Riellys and get the 10W-30 Rotella. I'm seriously considering switching from Mobil 1 EP to Rotella myself.:shhh:

I'm fairly certain the extended performance line is NOT ILSAC rated/approved, due to it's higher ZDDP content. However, I don't know if it is a synthetic or conventional oil.

Ranger
02-08-07, 09:36 PM
On another thought, does anyone know if an oil analysis shows the levels of ZDDP remaining? I suspect not, but that would be a good indicator of how the OLM should be adjusted.

eldorado1
02-08-07, 09:54 PM
On another thought, does anyone know if an oil analysis shows the levels of ZDDP remaining? I suspect not, but that would be a good indicator of how the OLM should be adjusted.

Yes. Oil analysis gives you a break down of the elements in your oil. An example:


Element...PPM measured...PPM univeral average
Aluminum 2 3
Chromium 1 1
Iron 8 14
Copper 3 14
Lead 1 4
Tin 0 1
Moly 14 55
Nickel 0 0
Manganese 0 1
Silver 0 0
Titanium 0 0
Potassium 0 6
Boron 19 37
Silicon 18 14
Sodium 6 10
Calcium 2984 1978
Magnesium 10 145
Phosphorus 1027 679
Zinc 1187 826
Barium 0 0

Zinc and phosphorous would be the ones that highlight the remaining life on ZDDP. Silicon will tell you whether your air and oil filter is performing properly. They can also point out whether your bearings are wearing abnormally fast. Just keep track of mileage before sending your oil in. And post the results!

clarkz71
02-09-07, 02:19 PM
I'm fairly certain the extended performance line is NOT ILSAC rated/approved, due to it's higher ZDDP content. However, I don't know if it is a synthetic or conventional oil.

Here's the label of Mobil 1 EP "full synthetic" oil.



http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/clarkz71/Camsensor009.jpg



http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/clarkz71/Camsensor010.jpg

eldorado1
02-09-07, 03:15 PM
Oops, sorry... I think I'm confusing my mobil's..... There is a series that allows you to run 5000, 7500 and 15000 miles between oil changes. (and they list this on the bottle). I guess I don't know what it's called then.

(or maybe it changed??)

JohnnyO
02-09-07, 03:27 PM
The Mobil 5000 and 7500 oils are not synthetics. The 7500 might be a blend but I don't remember for sure.

Did a little digging and it looks like Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment and also Engine Treatment have zinc on the MSDS and STP Oil Stabilizer says it has more ZDDP than any other additive.

www.valvoline.com
www.stp.com

mtflight
02-09-07, 03:59 PM
The Mobil 5000 and 7500 oils are not synthetics. The 7500 might be a blend but I don't remember for sure.

Did a little digging and it looks like Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment and also Engine Treatment have zinc on the MSDS and STP Oil Stabilizer says it has more ZDDP than any other additive.

www.valvoline.com (http://www.valvoline.com)
www.stp.com (http://www.stp.com)


STP oil treatment http://www.stp.com/oil_4cyl.html has roughly 2000 PPM of ZDDP.

On a Northstar, you'd have to add 3 pints in order to match EOS (3x more concentration).

And at ~$2.50 a bottle... you may as well splurge the extra dollar and get EOS.

The reason I point out the 4 Cyl treatment vs the other is that the basic Oil Treatment is very thick, and I dunno what would happen if you add 3 pints to your mix at every oil change.

I have no idea how much the "Oil Stabilizer" has, but the name alone screams of "Lucas" and frothy oil... of course my comment is unfounded, just an opinion.

clarkz71
02-09-07, 04:05 PM
Oops, sorry... I think I'm confusing my mobil's..... There is a series that allows you to run 5000, 7500 and 15000 miles between oil changes. (and they list this on the bottle). I guess I don't know what it's called then.

(or maybe it changed??)

Mobil 1 EP is the 15000 mile oil, it comes in several grades including, 5W-30,
10W-30 (pictured above) and 15W-50.

mtflight
02-09-07, 04:18 PM
Here's the label of Mobil 1 EP "full synthetic" oil.



Wow clarkz71, that's a crying shame. Here people who baby their cars, splurging on this stuff think they're actually doing their car a favor and it's the opposite (extended drain intervals + reduced ZDDP = more wear).

:rant2:

mtflight
02-09-07, 04:30 PM
Mtflight,
Did this "Wise Man" happen to address the 15W40 weight as 10W30 is hard to find in diesel applications.

Yes, Ranger.

He said 15W40 would be be just fine. (make sure it's CI-4 and not the new reduced ZDDP 2007 CJ-4 -- they will make them concurrently for a while).

He said this was important for the direct acting rubbing element, flat tappets. Your car has roller finger followers... which don't require ZDDP to survive.

dkozloski
02-09-07, 06:06 PM
Lowered ZDDP level does not neccessarily mean more wear. ZDDP doesn't come into play until there is a failure of the normal lubrication film and metal to metal contact occurs. If your engine doesn't have flat tappet lifters you're pretty much immune. All this Henny Penny the sky is falling obsession about ZDDP is much ado about nothing.

Cadillacboy
02-09-07, 06:15 PM
I can't believe in my eyes. A diesel oil in a gas engine ? lol
:cookoo: :alchi:

100
02-09-07, 06:26 PM
I can't believe in my eyes. A diesel oil in a gas engine ? lol
:cookoo: :alchi:

Many diesel oils are fine for gasoline engines (rated both C and S). But many oils for gasoline engines are NOT (rated S category). So when you say "diesel oil", you should almost always keep in mind that it means "both diesel and gasoline" oil.

Cadillacboy
02-09-07, 06:30 PM
Thanks for clearing . I will take that .

100
02-09-07, 06:32 PM
Hello everyone,

One thing I noticed is that CJ is designed for "low sulphur diesel fuel".

http://new.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf

I think this means CJ becomes acidic quicker than CI (at least in theory), not good for an aluminum engine if you want to practice long oil change interval. But I don't know how significant this is in the real life.

dkozloski
02-09-07, 06:54 PM
Hello everyone,

One thing I noticed is that CJ is designed for "low sulphur diesel fuel".

http://new.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf

I think this means CJ becomes acidic quicker than CI (at least in theory), not good for an aluminum engine if you want to practice long oil change interval. But I don't know how significant this is in the real life.
Aluminum handles acid pretty well. Put aluminum in a strong base and watch it disappear before your eyes.

mtflight
02-09-07, 09:34 PM
All this Henny Penny the sky is falling obsession about ZDDP is much ado about nothing.

LOL! Thanks for the laugh. That was funny.



Lowered ZDDP level does not neccessarily mean more wear. ZDDP doesn't come into play until there is a failure of the normal lubrication film and metal to metal contact occurs. If your engine doesn't have flat tappet lifters you're pretty much immune.

This, I'm sure, is true.

I have neither the experience nor the knowledge that you do. What I do have is a ticking/knocking '98 Flat tappet Northstar.

My oil has always been changed at maximum by the OLM, and at minimum sooner than that.

I run it hard to clean the carbon and hopefully dislodge whatever is causing the tick/knock sound... but now that I know it's in the upper end--what else should I blame?

Let me quote the first two sentences of a recent Hot Rod article by Marlan Davis:


For the last several years, many engine builders and individual hot rodders have experienced a raft of seemingly unexplained flat-tappet camshaft lobe failures. As one engine builder puts it, "I've failed more cams in the last three years than I have in the last 30."

from http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html

And what do the big oil companys think? Do they care?

I think they're more concerned with meeting the latest regulations, than catering to the small subset that worries and is obsessed with "Henny Penny ZDDP concentrations are falling."

They assume, rightly so, that most people, know very little about the subject (and "let's keep it that way"), who think the latest, most expensive synthetic oil is what they should be flowing in their baby.

Do the big car companies care?

I think they'd rather see us driving a new car (for instance a CTS), with a roller camshaft, than to spend money educating the public to warn us that our older engines with flat tappets either need additives or Diesel oils with higher ZDDP.

Can you imagine what the EPA would say to them if they encouraged all the older engine owners to use more ZDDP?

Racing oils will always have high ZDDP, but they are not for "street use," and they're pricey.

100
02-09-07, 10:48 PM
dkozloski,


Aluminum handles acid pretty well. Put aluminum in a strong base and watch it disappear before your eyes.

Is it relevant? I don't think CI-4 oils are strong base.

dkozloski
02-09-07, 10:57 PM
dkozloski,



Is it relevant? I don't think CI-4 oils are strong base.
What I was getting at is that mildly acidic oil is pretty well tolerated by aluminum engines. A high Ph can be a problem.

BodybyFisher
02-10-07, 08:07 AM
What I was getting at is that mildly acidic oil is pretty well tolerated by aluminum engines. A high Ph can be a problem.

I knew what you meant...

AlBundy
02-10-07, 08:28 PM
I recall reading this statement that was posted by Ranger from the Guru:

"We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.".

BodybyFisher
02-10-07, 08:53 PM
I recall reading this statement that was posted by Ranger from the Guru:

"We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.".

Yes that is in my post above from the guru.... I think the problem is however, HOW MUCH has the ZDDP been reduced... Its nice that the OLM algorithm was conservative, but now that the ZDDP is reduced what is the margin of safety now? Is it down from 20K miles to 10K miles? I am not sure we will ever know that, as it would require lots of testing to re-establish the ZDDP depletion curve..

Ranger
02-11-07, 12:06 PM
I think the problem is however, HOW MUCH has the ZDDP been reduced...
ZINC LEVELS IN MOTOR OIL

YEAR API PPM
1996 SH 1,300
2001 SJ 1,100
2005 SM 870
2006 Shell Rotella (Diesel) 1,400
2006 Q Racing 1,960
2006 Joe Gibbs Racing XP-4 2,800

MonzaRacer
02-12-07, 02:19 PM
Ok so you people are thinking that ZDDP is the ONLY antiwear agent in the oil, but its not.
aftertalking with a chemical engineer I was informed that while yess some oils have REDUCED levels they are in no way counter productive nor in any way ,WITH NORMAL MAINTENANCE AND CARE, going to cause excessive wear.
As a technician I have been researching this greatly as a lot of Cadillac owners are interested and saying that I dont know what I am talking about even though I am a certified Master Gas Engine Machinist and a race engine builder.
now lots of engines I work on that are race engines have flat tappets and HIGH valve spring preasures and several are street driven and I guarantee you these engines get more abuse than what any of you can put on an engine.
The big problem I see with OLM changes are the oil comes out thin, diluted greatly, just plain grungy, and I would never let standard motor oil go that long. I have seen OLMs let oil go well over 15k miles and this is just too long.
I really like to see oil changes in any car with OLMs come it at 3k and see where the OLM has left. Honestly if I see more that 500 to 700 miles left (or a percentage coming near that.) I suspect the programing.
While it is considerered ok to go long miles with the OLM but I just dont trust a machine to tell me that I need to change my oil.
My father always held very strict oil change schedules. AND his vehicles all went to new owners who had very good luck with the condition of his vehicles.
And for 20 plus years we used Shell Rotella T in our vehicles. now I rune full synthetic oil. One of the reasons is that the base oil has higher temp stability, also you gotta remeber the oil does the lubricating and carries the additives arround, the ZDDP migrates to the metal parts and protects if the oil film breaks down. Now some the additives help the base oils hold up to the rigors inside the engine.
I have not seen any problems with cams lately. I have several engines that are closer to stock than most really would believe but we still run high lift cams with high spring rate valve springs, and so far even in older big block chevys i have never seen any problems and most of these guys have went with standard off the shelf oild rather than high dollar racing oils. I have one fella running a .650 lift race cam and its flat tappet and that engine gets driven every day to work. He rags that enige bad and it looks great.
IF you change the oil regularly I dont think your going to have any problems. The newer oils especially with synthetic blends are doing very well and regardless of a few supposed failures.
Generally if I find a bad cam the lifter has been wearing for a while. I find that if the engine is full of crud(from lack of oil changes and bad detergent packages) the lifters will stop turning in the lifter bore THEN you get lifter wear that will be excessive.
Come on guys you spend good money on your rides then want to play the wait game on oil changes. WHY? If the engine cost a lot to replace would it not be cheaper to change your oil more often?
I see Caddys with 150k , 200k and even more and never have cam problems. Like someone said I think a lot of this chicken little screaming the sky is falling.
If you dont like certain oils run the Shell Rotella, then you can sleep well at night.
Good Luck

Ranger
02-12-07, 04:55 PM
I really like to see oil changes in any car with OLMs come it at 3k and see where the OLM has left. My father always held very strict oil change schedules. AND his vehicles all went to new owners who had very good luck with the condition of his vehicles.

I certainly don't have your qualifications, experience or knowledge, but come on now. 3K oil changes was correct for your father and mine. Hell even for me when I had my first few cars, but todays SM oils are a far cry from the SD oils that they used, don't you think?


Honestly if I see more that 500 to 700 miles left (or a percentage coming near that.) I suspect the programing.
Do you have any idea what went into the programming of the GM OLM algorithm? Do you realize the Dr. Shirley Schwartz holds a patent along with GM for it and has won awards for it and that she is very highly respected in the field of lubrication?

I would respectfully suggest that you are a bit closed minded and old school (as was I til I learned more about it). Old habits die hard and it took a long time for me to give up on the 3K oil changes. It took our old Guru and some lengthy detailed explanations to finally convince me. Maybe someone has a copy stored.


Come on guys you spend good money on your rides then want to play the wait game on oil changes. WHY? If the engine cost a lot to replace would it not be cheaper to change your oil more often?
Are you saying that following the OLM will cause an engine failure?

BodybyFisher
02-12-07, 10:28 PM
You know what, 3000 mile oil changes when we were kids was OVERKILL also... The manual said if you did short trips, fleet or stop and go change it every 3000 miles.... that was the WORST case scenario.... Highway driving it said every 7500 miles... So EVEN back then, changing it every 3000 miles was like wearing a belt and suspenders... The OLM takes MANY variables into consideration many that WE can not monitor easily... If you wear belts and suspenders change it every 3000 miles, hell you might as well change your tranny fluid every 24000 miles while you are at it also..

dkozloski
02-12-07, 11:34 PM
You know what, 3000 mile oil changes when we were kids was OVERKILL also... The manual said if you did short trips, fleet or stop and go change it every 3000 miles.... that was the WORST case scenario.... Highway driving it said every 7500 miles... So EVEN back then, changing it every 3000 miles was like wearing a belt and suspenders... The OLM takes MANY variables into consideration many that WE can not monitor easily... If you wear belts and suspenders change it every 3000 miles, hell you might as well change your tranny fluid every 24000 miles while you are at it also..

Gm Powertrain engineers decided that dirt introduced while monkeying with the transmission was enough of a factor to assemble the newer transmissions in a clean room and seal them after a factory fill and have no dipstick. My CTS has a dedicated OLM for the transmission. Projecting oil life indicates the OLM will time out at about 191,000 miles. I'll probably service it before then. I suspect there are a hell of a lot more cars get wrapped around a pole by a drunk that changes the oil at 3000 miles than destroyed by owners following the factory maintenance schedule.

clarkz71
02-13-07, 04:48 AM
hell you might as well change your tranny fluid every 24000 miles while you are at it also..


Your not far off, up until the late 90's when the electronically controlled 722.6 transmissions came out, Mercedes maintenance manual recommended changing the transmission fluid & filter every 30,000 miles.

clarkz71
02-13-07, 10:47 AM
Just picked up a couple of cases of Rotella 10W-30. It's the new Triple Protection but.... it's API rated SJ which was the spec in 1996. So next oil change I guess I'm officially switching from Mobil 1 10W30 EP to the Rotella. I reposted the Mobil 1 EP pic, you'll notice it's API rated SL & SM only, while the Rotella is SJ, SL & SM


http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/clarkz71/Rotella10W-30.jpg


http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/clarkz71/RotellaAPIspecs.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k120/clarkz71/Camsensor010.jpg

BodybyFisher
02-13-07, 05:10 PM
Your not far off, up until the late 90's when the electronically controlled 722.6 transmissions came out, Mercedes maintenance manual recommended changing the transmission fluid & filter every 30,000 miles.

My statement to change the tranny fluid every 24000 months was said tongue in cheek.... the reasons used for NOT using the OLM to me are ridiculous... Even the BITOG site confirmed that the OLM works.. Some people are just thick headed about it and INSIST on throwing out opinions like "the oil comes out TOO thin" without empirical data to back it up... FACTS are ALL I want to hear about.. Personally I trust the OLM because of the testing that went into it and because the guru would NOT steer us wrong. Anyone that disagrees should re-read the guru's words that I posted above and POST facts like OIL analysis when the OLM hits 50%, 25% and ZERO before refuting its accuracy. Opinions are like aholes, everyone has one, now FACTS, that's a different story.

clarkz71
02-13-07, 05:14 PM
My statement to change the tranny fluid every 24000 months was said tongue in cheek.


I know what you meant, I just thought it was funny because that mileage is close to Mercedes recommendation for the ATF change. Nothing to do with engine oil OLM.

mtflight
02-13-07, 06:50 PM
Apparently it's not the SM rating that restricts ZDDP. It's the ILSAC GF-4 rating on oils with the starburst.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/5-0-5-7/88672-amsoil-5.html

clarkz71
02-13-07, 07:00 PM
Apparently it's not the SM rating that restricts ZDDP. It's the ILSAC GF-4 rating on oils with the starburst.


Yes, that's correct. No ILSAC GF-4 anywhere on the Rotella jug.

mtflight
02-13-07, 07:08 PM
Some more info on the OLM (for that guy who does not believe it)

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=77&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/news_issues/news/simplified_maintenance_qa_040104.html#ols

BodybyFisher
02-13-07, 07:43 PM
Some more info on the OLM (for that guy who does not believe it)

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=77&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/news_issues/news/simplified_maintenance_qa_040104.html#ols

Thanks for those articles, this came from your first article its identical to what I posted above:

The typical recommended interval for gasoline-fueled passenger cars and light-duty trucks is 3,000 miles (4,800 km) or three months, whichever first occurs, when outside temperatures are below freezing and trips are short. These conditions are considered severe duty. For ideal driving conditions, relating to long trips with mild outside temperatures, the interval can be expanded to 7,500 miles (12,000 km).

I love it! Changing your oil every 3000 miles is only necessary for SEVERE duty! I hate being right all the time, I really do, but it comes from paying attention and listening to people who are smarter than I am, and from not being old school and thick headed...and it has nothing to do with how many engines (429, 472, 500 and olds 350) I have rebuilt, transmissions (TH350, TH400) I have rebuilt or the four summers I was a first class mechanic in a ship yard working on pumps, cranes, and engines in my high school and college years in the early 70's, it has to do with being flexible and being open to learning new things and listening to people who are smarter than me by far. I think its called humility and I am not patting myself on the back.

mtflight
02-13-07, 07:55 PM
EXTRA! EXTRA!

Everything You Never Wanted To Know About Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate And Would've Never Thought To Ask, and THEN Some... (http://corporate.lubrizol.com/PressRoom/MediaCoverage/pdflibrary/LNG_ZDDP.pdf)

:duck:

mtflight
02-13-07, 08:08 PM
On older engines with flat-tappet lifters, such as the 93-99 Northstar, the camshaft rubs across the lifters and ZDDP is used as a high pressure lubricant. It bonds to the surface of the cam and lifters leaving an ovelapping layer of lubricant.

With the phasing out of ZDDP to help with catalytic converter life (OEMs dont like to replace emissions systems under warranty) cams started going flat everywhere. To aggravate the situation, some detergents included in oils may wipe-out organic deposits (the precious ZDDP!) from engine surfaces.

CJ-4 reduces phosphorous content 200 PPM (not really all that significant -- from CI-4 1440 PPM to CJ-4 1200 PPM). Phosphorous is part of ZDDP so it can be considered a directly proportional reduction.


Do I need to adjust my used oil analysis program for Chevron Delo 400 LE?
Yes,Delo 400 LE may have a different fresh oil chemical profile from previous oils because one ofthe key requirements ofthe API
CJ-4 category is the setting ofmaximum limits on the phosphorus,sulfur and sulfated ash content ofoils.These limits are needed to protect the
new2007 advanced emission control technologies.Users should seek guidance from their oil supplier and/or engine or vehicle manufacturer
regarding any changes to used oil analysis programs for Delo 400 LE.Chevron will be providing our new API CJ-4 product chemical profiles to
all labs that participatein our company-sponsored oil analysis programs.These programs include LubeWatch,Computex,and ChevronCheck.

http://www.delobike.com/Chev%20CJ4%20Q_A.pdf

I think the sky IS falling for those of us with flat-tappet engines. j/k
:alchi:

BodybyFisher
02-13-07, 08:24 PM
I think the sky IS falling for those of us with flat-tappet engines. j/k
:alchi:

With a 96 Deville, I agree and will follow what clarkz said above and supplement my oil changes with a pint of EOS or use Rotella from now on. ESPECIALLY after what Chevelle stated... NICE post!

Ranger
02-13-07, 08:55 PM
I am think about that on my wifes '96 3800. Anyone know if an '04 3.4 (Grand Am) is flat tappet or roller?

mtflight
02-13-07, 09:07 PM
With a 96 Deville, I agree and will follow what clarkz said above and supplement my oil changes with a pint of EOS or use Rotella from now on.

Here's my backyard science analysis on what EOS does to your oil concentration:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/97572-oil-weight-4.html#post971843

One pint of EOS adds ~400PPM to the ZDDP concentration (to 7 qts.)

ILSAC GF-4 has about 800 PPM ZDDP so adding the pint of EOS to it will bring the oil up to 1200 PPM ZDDP

Likewise one bottle of 4 cyl STP has 2000 PPM ZDDP so adding that bottle (I believe also a pint) will add 133 PPM of ZDDP.

mtflight
02-13-07, 09:16 PM
I am think about that on my wifes '96 3800. Anyone know if an '04 3.4 (Grand Am) is flat tappet or roller?
According to eSI, the camshaft is made from a new metal composite design (good luck j/k).

A "roller rocker" type valve train is used (not to be confused with "rock and roller," a term coined in the 60s with the advent of The Beatles). Motion is transmitted from the camshaft through the hydraulic roller lifter and from the pushrod to the roller rocker arm.

Ranger
02-13-07, 09:18 PM
Great, sounds like the venerable old 3800 is the only one I need to be concerned about. Thanks Alex.

mtflight
02-13-07, 09:23 PM
I am think about that on my wifes '96 3800.


Apparently the 3800 has hydraulic roller valve lifters. Tubular pushrods operate the overhead rocker arms and valves of both cylinder banks with the single camshaft.

So is the 93-99 N* the only one with flat tappets?

Ranger
02-13-07, 09:27 PM
WOW, guess I don't have to worry about any of them. Not sure about any other engines. Northstar wise, yeah '93 -'99.

mtflight
02-13-07, 09:31 PM
WOW, guess I don't have to worry about any of them. Not sure about any other engines. Northstar wise, yeah '93 -'99.

I think that may be why there isn't a big concern out there. It's only the specialty racing engine hobbyists, and those of us with 93-99 Northstars, the ageing 4.1 style engines, and oh probably the some OHC V-TECs and non.

Ranger
02-13-07, 09:36 PM
I didn't realize they had been using rollers for so long. Kind of surprised now that the '93 - '99 Northstars didn't.

mtflight
02-13-07, 09:48 PM
I didn't realize they had been using rollers for so long. Kind of surprised now that the '93 - '99 Northstars didn't.

From re-reading BBob's old posts apparently the "heads" on the 93-99 were more agressively profiled than the 2000 + N*(lift angles and the such).

Back in the late 80s and early 90s it may have been a compromise between performance and budget. Flat tappets are less expensive than roller finger followers.

How old is the 3800?

Ranger
02-13-07, 10:24 PM
1996 (136,000 miles)

eldorado1
02-14-07, 12:14 AM
How old is the 3800?


The series I was introduced in 88, the series II was introduced in 95

clarkz71
02-14-07, 11:20 AM
Here's something I found while googling oil. It seems that the lower ZDDP levels only effect how long you can run the oil (OCI) I guess the 3000 mi OCI people have nothing to worry about.



% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti- wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of .11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high reving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high.

JohnnyO
02-15-07, 09:39 AM
Even the BITOG site confirmed that the OLM works....FACTS are ALL I want to hear about.. Personally I trust the OLM because of the testing that went into it and because the guru would NOT steer us wrong....Opinions are like aholes, everyone has one, now FACTS, that's a different story.
Dropping $20 for a Used Oil Analysis is the only way to know for sure. Anything else is just speculation. Pretty much every one I've ever had said I could have gone longer on the oil.

BodybyFisher
02-15-07, 03:34 PM
Dropping $20 for a Used Oil Analysis is the only way to know for sure. Anything else is just speculation. Pretty much every one I've ever had said I could have gone longer on the oil.

Agreed, I think I will send in a few samples. Who out there can we use with confidence...

Ranger
02-15-07, 04:27 PM
Here is one that I have heard mentioned. I have never used one so I make no recommendations.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

JohnnyO
02-15-07, 04:41 PM
Blackstone Labs is who I use. If you go to the site they will send you some free sample bottles, you send them back with the data sheet and a check for $20. They can send you either a printout or email you an Adobe copy. Takes about two or three weeks. They can do tranny fluid too.

dkozloski
02-15-07, 04:52 PM
Analysts, Inc. in Oakland, California are the old timers in the business. I've used them over the last forty years. One analysis by itself is not of much value. You get a lot more info if you plot trends long term.

Ranger
02-15-07, 05:00 PM
Way too much obsessing over motor oil for me. I just change it when or before the OLM tells me to. Don't have much use for an analysis. I suspect it will tell me what I already know, all is well and I could go longer.

dkozloski
02-15-07, 07:13 PM
Way too much obsessing over motor oil for me. I just change it when or before the OLM tells me to. Don't have much use for an analysis. I suspect it will tell me what I already know, all is well and I could go longer.
I used oil analysis for aircraft engines. They can tell you some interesting things, like your air filter is no good and your oil is full of silica.

eldorado1
02-15-07, 08:18 PM
Or your bearings are falling apart

mtflight
02-15-07, 09:13 PM
I'll have to send my oil in, to determine if I have "cam lobe" metals in there. I still have my oil filter... waiting to pry it open somehow. Dkoz, can I send it to you? :-)

dkozloski
02-15-07, 10:07 PM
I'll have to send my oil in, to determine if I have "cam lobe" metals in there. I still have my oil filter... waiting to pry it open somehow. Dkoz, can I send it to you? :-)
Get out your hacksaw with a 32 tooth blade and saw around the top of the filter. It helps if you have a bench vise to help hold it. You'll get some filings but anybody can tell the difference between that and wear metal. Take a pocket or utility knife and cut the ends off the filter element. In a fairly shallow pan like a gallon can with the side cut out, put a little solvent in it and wash the filter element pleat by pleat with an acid brush. Drain everything in the pan through a coffee filter. Drag a pencil magnet through it and see what sticks. Hold the filter element up to the light and see what glints off the stuff that didn't wash off. If you've got some metal that isn't magnetic see if it fizzes in a Draino solution. That'll tell you if it's aluminum. Black stuff that crushes is carbon.

Aircraft mechanics do this procedure every time they change engine oil.

mtflight
02-15-07, 11:56 PM
Cool. Cam lobe material would show up different than say bearing material?

dkozloski
02-16-07, 09:44 AM
Cool. Cam lobe material would show up different than say bearing material?
Cam lobe material is hard steel and would show up as very fine magnetic fuzz. Gear and piston ring metal would be a little elongated but also magnetic. Bearing metal is silvery looking and non magnetic. Depending on composition it might melt with a very hot soldering iron. If you have any bearing metal at all the engine will be knocking. Aluminum fizzes in Draino. A quarter teaspoon is an awful lot of metal in a filter and I'd go looking for the source.

Submariner409
02-16-07, 09:58 AM
dkoz......You using 0W-5 and a 500 watt block heater up there yet? (lol) A trick we use down/over here for boat engine filters is to squeeze sections of the pleated material in a vise in order to "dry" the media. You can pull it open like an accordion, read it like a book.......

dkozloski
02-16-07, 11:56 AM
dkoz......You using 0W-5 and a 500 watt block heater up there yet? (lol) A trick we use down/over here for boat engine filters is to squeeze sections of the pleated material in a vise in order to "dry" the media. You can pull it open like an accordion, read it like a book.......
I use 5W-30 Mobil1 and the factory supplied block heater in my CTS. It starts and runs fine to -50F and below. I like to wash down the filter element to get an idea of the volume of trapped material. I also like to hold the filter to the light so I can see the color of the fine trapped stuff.

mtflight
02-16-07, 12:28 PM
One of my first oil changes, probably about a year ago, was a little startling. I was wearing black suede mechanic gloves. I then noticed some silvery fuzz on the drain plug. I touched it and it left a print on my finger much like one of those silver metallic markers with the marble inside would.

I was running ILSAC GF-4 starburst oil with no additives. I went to Rotella only the last two oil changes (the recent one being last month). Interestingly I did not find nearly as much the last oil change... almost clean by comparison.


Question: In the way that cams and springs can be replaced with a more agressive set by say CHRFAB, I wonder if a roller set can be adapted (the 93-99 heads themselves are not compatible with the 2000+ for a direct swap). Although really with Rotella there'd be no premature wear so it would last another 9 years easy if I had them replaced. Good question for someone w. insider experience w. Northstars.

JohnnyO
02-16-07, 03:04 PM
If you have silvery fuzz on the drain plug then it's probably a magnetic plug, which would be a good thing. Makes the filter's job a little easier. SuperPlugs are the shiznit but delivery can be, uh, slow. www.superplug.com

eldorado1
02-16-07, 04:07 PM
If you have silvery fuzz on the drain plug then it's probably a magnetic plug

and ferrous material on a magnetic plug means what again, dkoz?

;)

dkozloski
02-16-07, 05:37 PM
and ferrous material on a magnetic plug means what again, dkoz?

;)
It means that steel or iron parts are experiencing wear. A new engine will have more than a mid-life engine. A 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon is a lot. I'd look for the source. A small amount is normal.

eldorado1
02-16-07, 06:51 PM
It means that steel or iron parts are experiencing wear. A new engine will have more than a mid-life engine. A 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon is a lot. I'd look for the source. A small amount is normal.

considering the crank is encased in soft bearing material that wears first.....

wouldn't that suggest an abnormal cam wear problem?

dkozloski
02-16-07, 07:29 PM
considering the crank is encased in soft bearing material that wears first.....

wouldn't that suggest an abnormal cam wear problem?
It could be rings. It could be cylinders. It could be timing chain and sprockets. The hard steel imbeds in the soft bearing material and works the crank over just like sandpaper. Oil pump elements are steel. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff wind up in the bottom of an oil pan. Every case teaches you something.

MonzaRacer
02-17-07, 12:18 AM
My statement to change the tranny fluid every 24000 months was said tongue in cheek.... the reasons used for NOT using the OLM to me are ridiculous... Even the BITOG site confirmed that the OLM works.. Some people are just thick headed about it and INSIST on throwing out opinions like "the oil comes out TOO thin" without empirical data to back it up... FACTS are ALL I want to hear about.. Personally I trust the OLM because of the testing that went into it and because the guru would NOT steer us wrong. Anyone that disagrees should re-read the guru's words that I posted above and POST facts like OIL analysis when the OLM hits 50%, 25% and ZERO before refuting its accuracy. Opinions are like aholes, everyone has one, now FACTS, that's a different story.

OK so you spend what $25 (figure 8 qts ,may spill some, $16, $4 for a filter) or less on oil change at home maybe more at a shop, or you spend that then extend your changes and spend $20 buck to test it say once inbetween your 3000/3500 mile oil change you spend the same.
I have seen many engines from people who never changed oil ,just added. The amount of damage/wear was incredible and the crud was very nasty.
I simply read and pointed out the ZDDP doesnt keep your engine from wearing,,, it is an added antiwear additive to reduce the damaging effects of worn out oil.
As for over changing my oil, hmmm ok I have never had oil related failure of any engine. I dont see any bad thing by changing the oil short.Now someone said something about the person who designed the OLM (well actually I believe it was the algorithym they used.
I have seen and recommended short oil changes for a long time and never been trashed as much as on here.
The additives are used in addition to the lubricating properties of base oil.
I like to change my oil short and know that I have good oil my engine(I use synthetic oil) I recommend short oil changes and people still run over so if you ask tell someone to go 3k and they go 4k they are still in good standing with the idea anyway.
As for the debate we can all sit here and bring up what we find somewhere, see or read or told, and post it. I have had a lady with a 94 Caddy come to me as I am changing jobs and she wants me to keep in touch and she is going to follow me to next job if possible, and she has so far got 283k on here car and changes oil at 3k to 3500 and the car looks like it rolled off the show room floor. We flushed her tranny fluid every 35k and ya know her tranny developed a leak, so it was yanked ,the fella I sent her too resealed the thing ,left in the clutches and such and sent her on her way. Said it was clean as a new tranny. she had the heads off for a defective gasket and the other mechanic (my old shop wouldnt let me pull heads on it) ask when the new engine was installed.
3 shops, 4 different brands oils used and she drives like her hair is on fire all the time.
I ask her if she ahd anyfriends with old Caddies that i might get an engine out of, She ask why and I related to her this site. She asked why everyone was so het up about it, just change your oil and service the car (thats when she told me about what the mechanics said about her car).
Do what ever you guys like I just think that depending on a little computer to tell me when to change oil instead of reading the little sticker on the window/door is sort of nose in the air type of thinking.
Maybe changing oil at a little shorter time frame and know that the antiwear additives that are in there(and any that you add your self) are not being depleted from long oil changes is over kill but oil is now recycled (the base oil isnt destroyed for the most part only the additives are depleted) so its not a waste.
Good luck to all.

100
02-17-07, 01:00 AM
Hello everyone,

I thought this is an interesting material to read:

http://www.zag.si/~jank/public/bmw/oil_bible.pdf

By the way, MonzaRacer, how did you come up with a 3k or 3.5k interval then? Don't you feel uncomfortable once it passes, say, 2000 miles? Why not? I am not saying what you are doing is bad, in fact, I think what you are doing is probaly better. But how much better? You probably can't say... Then, I think OLM comes to play an important role. As long as you change the oil before OLM says the oil life is up, I believe the difference is nill.

mtflight
02-17-07, 01:02 AM
OK so you spend what $25 (figure 8 qts ,may spill some, $16, $4 for a filter) or less on oil change at home maybe more at a shop, or you spend that then extend your changes and spend $20 buck to test it say once inbetween your 3000/3500 mile oil change you spend the same.
I have seen many engines from people who never changed oil ,just added. The amount of damage/wear was incredible and the crud was very nasty.
I simply read and pointed out the ZDDP doesnt keep your engine from wearing,,, it is an added antiwear additive to reduce the damaging effects of worn out oil.
As for over changing my oil, hmmm ok I have never had oil related failure of any engine. I dont see any bad thing by changing the oil short.Now someone said something about the person who designed the OLM (well actually I believe it was the algorithym they used.
I have seen and recommended short oil changes for a long time and never been trashed as much as on here.
The additives are used in addition to the lubricating properties of base oil.
I like to change my oil short and know that I have good oil my engine(I use synthetic oil) I recommend short oil changes and people still run over so if you ask tell someone to go 3k and they go 4k they are still in good standing with the idea anyway.
As for the debate we can all sit here and bring up what we find somewhere, see or read or told, and post it. I have had a lady with a 94 Caddy come to me as I am changing jobs and she wants me to keep in touch and she is going to follow me to next job if possible, and she has so far got 283k on here car and changes oil at 3k to 3500 and the car looks like it rolled off the show room floor. We flushed her tranny fluid every 35k and ya know her tranny developed a leak, so it was yanked ,the fella I sent her too resealed the thing ,left in the clutches and such and sent her on her way. Said it was clean as a new tranny. she had the heads off for a defective gasket and the other mechanic (my old shop wouldnt let me pull heads on it) ask when the new engine was installed.
3 shops, 4 different brands oils used and she drives like her hair is on fire all the time.
I ask her if she ahd anyfriends with old Caddies that i might get an engine out of, She ask why and I related to her this site. She asked why everyone was so het up about it, just change your oil and service the car (thats when she told me about what the mechanics said about her car).
Do what ever you guys like I just think that depending on a little computer to tell me when to change oil instead of reading the little sticker on the window/door is sort of nose in the air type of thinking.
Maybe changing oil at a little shorter time frame and know that the antiwear additives that are in there(and any that you add your self) are not being depleted from long oil changes is over kill but oil is now recycled (the base oil isnt destroyed for the most part only the additives are depleted) so its not a waste.
Good luck to all.


Your approach makes sense. Nothing wrong with it. It certainly would tend to err on the safe side... especially now that oils are reformulated in the interest of the environment and not the longevity of the cars that were designed to rely on those older formulation additives.

Take criticism with a grain of sand around here. I do believe that when folks put down things that others believe in or cherish, they get defensive. For example someone saying things like "some stupid computer telling me when to change the oil" will get people to retaliate someway. Especially when the system has been proven to work.

When the N* was redesigned in 2000, to rely less on anti-wear additives due to less friction, the algorythm was adjusted from a maximum interval of 7500K to 12500K.

In an ideal world if time and money were no issue, GM would recall engines to reflash them with a revised OLM algorythm to account for changing additive packages. Thats not going to happen. Your approach to err on the safe side, is wise.

dkozloski
02-17-07, 09:35 AM
One of the advantages of the OLM put forward by the developers when presenting a paper to the API and SAE is the conservation of petroleum. There is a downside to premature oil changing. The wasting of petroleum and damage to the planet. If everybody changes oil at 1/2 life that means 1/2 the lubricating oil is wasted. What a waste!

mtflight
02-17-07, 02:10 PM
I agree of course. I've always used the OLM, after reading about it and understanding it. I just changed the oil type to include more ZDDP.

MonzaRacer said they recycle it. 'that true?

eldorado1
02-17-07, 04:30 PM
http://www.recycleoil.org/

dkozloski
02-17-07, 04:57 PM
http://www.recycleoil.org/
The collection, processing, and sale of reclaimed motor oil seems to be cyclic. It's gone through cycles of popularity and notoriety several times. At one time there were several brands on the market. Some of the processing consisted of simple filtering other outfits talked about re-refining. Some gets reinjected into crude oil pipelines. I've seen oil drained from diesel generators run through a centrifugal separator and reused.

BodybyFisher
02-17-07, 05:30 PM
Your approach makes sense. Nothing wrong with it. It certainly would tend to err on the safe side... especially now that oils are reformulated in the interest of the environment and not the longevity of the cars that were designed to rely on those older formulation additives.

Take criticism with a grain of sand around here. I do believe that when folks put down things that others believe in or cherish, they get defensive. For example someone saying things like "some stupid computer telling me when to change the oil" will get people to retaliate someway. Especially when the system has been proven to work.

When the N* was redesigned in 2000, to rely less on anti-wear additives due to less friction, the algorythm was adjusted from a maximum interval of 7500K to 12500K.

In an ideal world if time and money were no issue, GM would recall engines to reflash them with a revised OLM algorythm to account for changing additive packages. Thats not going to happen. Your approach to err on the safe side, is wise.

That was a good observation, thank you for the save.... When you said "they get defensive. For example someone saying things like "some stupid computer telling me when to change the oil" will get people to retaliate someway". The statement "the oil comes out TOO thin" did that for me... It overlooks all of the testing that went into the OLM. Sure we all can be safe and change our oil at 3000 miles but as I said before that is a worst case scenario.

I am a firm believer of the OLM, a firm believer, and those types of statements do not set well with me.. The next two times I change my oil I will change it at 25%, then 0%, and send the oil for analysis. I want to see how accurate the OLM is and if the cushion is still there. I will use the same type of oil each time and report the results here when I complete the changes and receive the analysis..Its a 96 with flat tappets. It would be interesting to see others do the same.

I apologize if I appeared to be unduely criticizing..

clarkz71
02-17-07, 05:56 PM
Sounds good Mike, what oil are you testing with?

BodybyFisher
02-17-07, 06:38 PM
Sounds good Mike, what oil are you testing with?

You know clarkz, I am not sure what you do think? I was thinking of testing with the reduced ZDDP oils so that we could get a bench mark then testing with the Rotella that you recommended.. I would appreciate any suggestions so that I can get the best results.. Thanks

eldorado1
02-17-07, 06:52 PM
Use plain ol' Mobil 1... They have a large following. ;)

clarkz71
02-17-07, 08:57 PM
You know clarkz, I am not sure what you do think? I was thinking of testing with the reduced ZDDP oils so that we could get a bench mark then testing with the Rotella that you recommended.. I would appreciate any suggestions so that I can get the best results.. Thanks

I think that's a great idea, then we can see how accurate the OLM is with todays oil's.

brmurph
02-18-07, 11:05 AM
You know clarkz, I am not sure what you do think? I was thinking of testing with the reduced ZDDP oils so that we could get a bench mark then testing with the Rotella that you recommended.. I would appreciate any suggestions so that I can get the best results.. Thanks

I would be willing to test with the havaline (old formula in the car now) if someone would send me the info on where to get the oil tested.. Maybe we could get a few people willing to do the test all with different oils,,,

BodybyFisher
02-18-07, 11:26 AM
I would be willing to test with the havaline (old formula in the car now) if someone would send me the info on where to get the oil tested.. Maybe we could get a few people willing to do the test all with different oils,,,

brmurph, if you look at page 10 of this thread Ranger and a few others recommended http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ Good Idea using Havoline, Mike

mtflight
02-18-07, 12:32 PM
hey BodybyFisher and brmurph.... great idea and we can all benefit from the results (knowledge). I look forward to hearing back from you gents!

I'm interested particularly in the "drastic" reduction in sacrificial ZDDP, from 0-7500 miles.

I recommend using an AC Delco oil filter, so at least that's even.

Also whether you added oil between the change or not (likely yes, lol... it's a Northstar--adding obviously boosts ZDDP and other additive levels).

BodybyFisher
02-18-07, 01:56 PM
hey BodybyFisher and brmurph.... great idea and we can all benefit from the results (knowledge). I look forward to hearing back from you gents!

I'm interested particularly in the "drastic" reduction in sacrificial ZDDP, from 0-7500 miles.

I recommend using an AC Delco oil filter, so at least that's even.

Also whether you added oil between the change or not (likely yes, lol... it's a Northstar--adding obviously boosts ZDDP and other additive levels).

Thanks for the fine tuning. I always use AC Delco. I will record all detail including, oil details, filter, mileage vs olm %, oil added etc.. I am pretty good with Excel, so I am thinking of graphing the results... Obviously this will be a long term project (over a year or so)... but I will report info as it comes in. I ordered a test kit today from Blackstone... The ONLY issue I have is that I am hoping to sell my 96 Deville and buy a 96 to 98 STS in the spring, Thanks

brmurph
02-18-07, 08:15 PM
OK I just ordered my kit. I have been watching BBF's post for years so I think it is safe to say I will not be nearly as analytical as he (he doesn't miss a thing :-) but I will check take the sample at about 5% left and count the quarts of oil I add between changes. Too late to monitor mileage as I am already down to about 93%.

BodybyFisher
02-18-07, 09:36 PM
OK I just ordered my kit. I have been watching BBF's post for years so I think it is safe to say I will not be nearly as analytical as he (he doesn't miss a thing :-) but I will check take the sample at about 5% left and count the quarts of oil I add between changes. Too late to monitor mileage as I am already down to about 93%.

Thanks for the pat on the back :) in some circles its called anal :) :) I will check at 5% also so that we can be in sync

AlBundy
02-18-07, 09:55 PM
This should be interesting. Looking forward to seeing your results.:thumbsup:

Ranger
02-18-07, 10:45 PM
I recommend short oil changes and people still run over so if you ask tell someone to go 3k and they go 4k they are still in good standing with the idea anyway.
What would you say to the person who drives 2 blocks to work in winter and the OLM tells them to change oil at 2k? The OLM would catch that. Sometimes 3K is too long. You may be erroring on the safe side, but maybe not always. The OLM is smarter than you give it credit for.

cadillacmike68
05-02-07, 12:53 AM
The OLM does work I found that out with a bad primary cooling fan on my 1995 Fleetwood. My problem is with these newer oils and the old 1995 algorithims in my 95 Fleetwood. That car was made before this new low ZDP / ZDDP oil and it doesn't have a countdown percentage display like NorthStar equipped cars, just a warning light to "Change Oil" which rather inconveniently came on at the START of a trip to Atlanta from Tampa last month. I added a quart in Atlanta, but had to drive back the 500 miles to change the oil. So did I FUBAR up my Fleetwood with 188000 miles? :bomb:

jadcock
05-02-07, 07:20 AM
ZDDP isn't the ONLY anti-wear additive. It's ONE of them. There are other additives that have been INCREASED in SM oils (like calcium and phosphorous) that can help account for the reduced levels of ZDDP. You seriously can't judge the quality or the potential longevity of an oil based on the concentration of ONE constituent.

Ranger
05-02-07, 10:35 AM
The OLM does work I found that out with a bad primary cooling fan on my 1995 Fleetwood. My problem is with these newer oils and the old 1995 algorithims in my 95 Fleetwood. That car was made before this new low ZDP / ZDDP oil and it doesn't have a countdown percentage display like NorthStar equipped cars, just a warning light to "Change Oil" which rather inconveniently came on at the START of a trip to Atlanta from Tampa last month. I added a quart in Atlanta, but had to drive back the 500 miles to change the oil. So did I FUBAR up my Fleetwood with 188000 miles? :bomb:

No, there is a HUGE safety factor built into the OLM. I think the Guru once said it was about 100%.

jadcock
05-02-07, 11:36 AM
Also...wouldn't your 1995 Fleetwood (with the Chevy 350 right?) have roller camshaft followers? Even if the rocker arms didn't have rollers, the camshaft tappets being rolling would eliminate a big area where extra ZDDP might be necessary (in the absense of alternative anti-wear constituents).

Playdrv4me
05-02-07, 03:25 PM
Ooooooh Fun thread!


You know what, 3000 mile oil changes when we were kids was OVERKILL also... The manual said if you did short trips, fleet or stop and go change it every 3000 miles.... that was the WORST case scenario.... Highway driving it said every 7500 miles... So EVEN back then, changing it every 3000 miles was like wearing a belt and suspenders... The OLM takes MANY variables into consideration many that WE can not monitor easily... If you wear belts and suspenders change it every 3000 miles, hell you might as well change your tranny fluid every 24000 miles while you are at it also..

Actually, "Severe" applies to pretty much anyone who lives in a city, commutes to work, and sees at least several months of hot climate per year. Most instruction manuals Ive ever read specifically make this point, since the "severe" moniker is usually misunderstood.


OK so you spend what $25 (figure 8 qts ,may spill some, $16, $4 for a filter) or less on oil change at home maybe more at a shop, or you spend that then extend your changes and spend $20 buck to test it say once inbetween your 3000/3500 mile oil change you spend the same.
I have seen many engines from people who never changed oil ,just added. The amount of damage/wear was incredible and the crud was very nasty.
I simply read and pointed out the ZDDP doesnt keep your engine from wearing,,, it is an added antiwear additive to reduce the damaging effects of worn out oil.
As for over changing my oil, hmmm ok I have never had oil related failure of any engine. I dont see any bad thing by changing the oil short.Now someone said something about the person who designed the OLM (well actually I believe it was the algorithym they used.
I have seen and recommended short oil changes for a long time and never been trashed as much as on here.
The additives are used in addition to the lubricating properties of base oil.
I like to change my oil short and know that I have good oil my engine(I use synthetic oil) I recommend short oil changes and people still run over so if you ask tell someone to go 3k and they go 4k they are still in good standing with the idea anyway.
As for the debate we can all sit here and bring up what we find somewhere, see or read or told, and post it. I have had a lady with a 94 Caddy come to me as I am changing jobs and she wants me to keep in touch and she is going to follow me to next job if possible, and she has so far got 283k on here car and changes oil at 3k to 3500 and the car looks like it rolled off the show room floor. We flushed her tranny fluid every 35k and ya know her tranny developed a leak, so it was yanked ,the fella I sent her too resealed the thing ,left in the clutches and such and sent her on her way. Said it was clean as a new tranny. she had the heads off for a defective gasket and the other mechanic (my old shop wouldnt let me pull heads on it) ask when the new engine was installed.
3 shops, 4 different brands oils used and she drives like her hair is on fire all the time.
I ask her if she ahd anyfriends with old Caddies that i might get an engine out of, She ask why and I related to her this site. She asked why everyone was so het up about it, just change your oil and service the car (thats when she told me about what the mechanics said about her car).
Do what ever you guys like I just think that depending on a little computer to tell me when to change oil instead of reading the little sticker on the window/door is sort of nose in the air type of thinking.
Maybe changing oil at a little shorter time frame and know that the antiwear additives that are in there(and any that you add your self) are not being depleted from long oil changes is over kill but oil is now recycled (the base oil isnt destroyed for the most part only the additives are depleted) so its not a waste.
Good luck to all.

In that case, I should note that in the 3-4 years Ive been on this forum, which undoubtedly is the largest gathering of Cadillac enthusiasts on the internet... Ive not ONCE seen an oil related failure on a Northstar anyway. Ive seen more headgasket failures than I can count though...

If theres one thing I see we do agree on, its transmission fluid changes. "Lifetime" tranny fluid is almost worse than 3k mile oil change hype.

So heres what works for me...

It is in my opinion a waste and expensive to follow the 3k mile oil change schedule. Not only that, I hate being the victim of marketing, and 3000 mile oil changes have been proliferated by oil company and subsequently quick lube marketing more than any cold hard facts or anything else since the stuff came out of the ground.

With that said, even the OLM tells you never to let the oil go beyond 1 year, no matter where the monitor sits. So this is what I do... I change my oil approx every 8000 miles. I feel this is a reasonable amount of time and splits the 3k mile marketing hype, and the approximately 10-12k mile OLM life right about in half. *HOWEVER* IF THE OLM runs through FASTER than 8k, then I will of course immediately change it based on the OLM.

Simple, effective. Done.

cadillacmike68
05-02-07, 11:35 PM
Also...wouldn't your 1995 Fleetwood (with the Chevy 350 right?) have roller camshaft followers? Even if the rocker arms didn't have rollers, the camshaft tappets being rolling would eliminate a big area where extra ZDDP might be necessary (in the absense of alternative anti-wear constituents).

I thought that it had roller lifters (followers), but can't remember. It is the original LT1 engine. I'm not home to get out the shop manual.

jadcock
05-03-07, 06:32 AM
If theres one thing I see we do agree on, its transmission fluid changes. "Lifetime" tranny fluid is almost worse than 3k mile oil change hype.

I could perhaps be the only one to disagree (but I do).

The fluid in my '97 SLS is original (157k miles). Shifts beautifully.

The fluid in my '01 STS is original (59k miles). Shifts beautifully.

The fluid in my '03 Grand Caravan is original (75k miles). Shifts beautifully.

I think transmission fluid changes in modern transmissions with modern fluids is also WAY overhyped. Pat Goss swears you need a flush every 30k miles with a BG machine...blah blah blah. I follow the owner's manual on everything else, including using the OLM to schedule oil changes, so I don't see why I wouldn't follow it on transmission fluid service schedules. Has worked wonderfully so far...

Ranger
05-03-07, 10:26 AM
Pat Goss! Most guys on this board know more than he does.

jadcock
05-03-07, 10:29 AM
Pat Goss! Most guys on this board know more than he does.

I know -- and the fact that he stands FOR frequent fluid changes makes me stand AGAINST them. His whole existance has to be paid by BG products. He recommends their services for EVERYTHING, even brake fluid flushes for Pete's sake.

Submariner409
05-03-07, 12:05 PM
Instead of guessing what normal wear and additive packages do to your engine/oil, spend a few bucks and send your next oil change sample to a testing lab. Starting from scratch doesn't tell you a thing, except for maybe catastrophic amounts of iron or babbit metal in the oil. BUT, 2 or 3 changes down the road, you'll have a good picture of the internal health of your engine, while having spent less than the total for a synthetic oil/filter change, DIY. Your local Peterbilt, Kenworth, or diesel/marine dealer has names and numbers of laboratories, and you'll get a report of EVERYTHING that's in the oil: water, zinc, antifreeze, gas, soot, blah, blah.

Playdrv4me
05-03-07, 04:13 PM
I could perhaps be the only one to disagree (but I do).

The fluid in my '97 SLS is original (157k miles). Shifts beautifully.

The fluid in my '01 STS is original (59k miles). Shifts beautifully.

The fluid in my '03 Grand Caravan is original (75k miles). Shifts beautifully.

I think transmission fluid changes in modern transmissions with modern fluids is also WAY overhyped. Pat Goss swears you need a flush every 30k miles with a BG machine...blah blah blah. I follow the owner's manual on everything else, including using the OLM to schedule oil changes, so I don't see why I wouldn't follow it on transmission fluid service schedules. Has worked wonderfully so far...

I know where youre coming from...I used to thumb my nose up at tranny fluid changes too...

But then I got thinking about it. The transmission fluid, unlike the motor oil, which is the rock star of the fluid world and gets alot of attention, just sloshes around in there everyday of its life, getting hot, then cold, then hot, then cold, then hot etc etc. It sees some of the highest temps in the car and even HIGHER when towing or theres alot of dead weight in the car. It would in my opinion, take a pretty space age fluid of ANY kind, for this not to absolutely pummel the particles of "stuff" and wear it down in short order.

I have heard one concern with transmission fluid changes, and that is that a flush moves around all the gunk, and metal particles and other shit that had found itself a nice place to lodge without causing any trouble, and theres always a small chance you can really screw something up if this debris ends up in the wrong spot. My answer to that is that if your changing it frequently enough, you shouldnt have anything floating around in there large enough to be of concern. The only other possible side effect is wearing out the gaskets, but a small price to pay versus the cost of a new transmission, and fluid changes arent that expensive.

Submariner409
05-03-07, 04:23 PM
:rolleyes: If you think AT fluid takes a beating, what about manual transmissions which use Dexron or Mercon, and also rear end differentials....that 80-120 oil really gets beaten up because hypoid gears slide in and out of engagement by design, and just how fluid is 80W at 10 degrees? Auto transmission fluid has an easy life by comparison, even to engine oils (no combustion contamination or acids...)

Playdrv4me
05-03-07, 04:51 PM
:rolleyes: If you think AT fluid takes a beating, what about manual transmissions which use Dexron or Mercon, and also rear end differentials....that 80-120 oil really gets beaten up because hypoid gears slide in and out of engagement by design, and just how fluid is 80W at 10 degrees? Auto transmission fluid has an easy life by comparison, even to engine oils (no combustion contamination or acids...)

Not sure what your point is... I specifically mentioned transmissions because I assumed diffs were a given. Painted differential housing covers get hot enough to scorch the paint off when youre towing, I change diff fluids even *more* often than I do the A/T goop. It doesnt take much neglect to get the old HHHOOOOWWWLL on your ring and pinion. Not convinced the trans fluid should be neglected though.

jadcock
05-03-07, 07:44 PM
The transmission fluid lives a VERY easy life compared to motor oil. Transmission fluid runs cooler than you think, under "normal" conditions. Again, this is where the transmission fluid life indicator on our cars comes into play. If that fluid overheats, it'll tell you to change it. Towing is probably a non-issue with these Cadillacs...it certainly is with me. If you drive a NYC taxi or sit in NYC style traffic all day, the tranny fluid probably will run a lot warmer and a change would be good. Changing tranny fluid won't hurt anything...some people change it every year I'm sure. It's not bad...just not necessary, under MANY driving conditions (again, I trust the transmission OLM on this one).

Transmission fluid doesn't see blowby contamination. It doesn't see water or fuel. It doesn't really see much of ANYTHING except that for which it was designed. Most modern tranny fluids are also heavily synthetic-based. I know Chrysler ATF+4 is. Not sure on the Dexron III...probably not. I'm sure the new Dexron V or whatever it is now is 100% synthetic.

clarkz71
05-03-07, 07:52 PM
It does see clutch material, the clutch packs slip as they engage. That's why these transaxles shift so smooth. I wouldn't chance it by not changing my fluid at least every 50K. It's not so much the cost of a replacement part, it's the labor to replace it I wouldn't look foward to. Oh, and the new fluid is Dexron VI, that's what I used at 55K.

jadcock
05-03-07, 07:53 PM
Clark, do you change your engine oil according to the OLM?

clarkz71
05-03-07, 07:54 PM
I do it when it reads 50%.

Ranger
05-03-07, 08:02 PM
50%?! Why?

clarkz71
05-03-07, 08:05 PM
I can't give you a good reason Larry. I'm working on letting it run further down, maybe 40% next time. Old habits are hard to break.

Ranger
05-03-07, 08:10 PM
:lol: I hear ya man. Took a long time for me too and much of the Guru's excellent explanations. If it makes you feel any better I recall him saying that the OLM has a 100% safety factor built in to it.

clarkz71
05-03-07, 08:12 PM
Maybe this will help me....:thepan: , almost, I'll keep working on it.:)

Ranger
05-03-07, 08:15 PM
He, he. I'll pray for you Clark.;)

clarkz71
05-03-07, 08:17 PM
Thanks, :thumbsup:

z06bigbird
06-12-07, 08:04 PM
Confusius once say: "Paper never refused ink."

brmurph
05-29-08, 10:59 PM
I would be willing to test with the havaline (old formula in the car now) if someone would send me the info on where to get the oil tested.. Maybe we could get a few people willing to do the test all with different oils,,,

I sure hate to bring this old thread back (OK I really don't mind :-) but I finally have the results of my oil analysis using both the old formula of Havoline and the new formula (10W30). If I did this right there should be an attachment added to this message, if you look at the first column you will see that I had 5000 miles and 5 quarts added in the 2nd test (burning lots of oil :-( using the new Havoline formula. I just about ran out of additive (they call it tbn, from what I understand ZDDP is included in there somehow). Now look at the third column where I had 7000 miles using the old formula and added 7 quarts (I think they had 9 quarts but that was not right) and the TBN is 5.0.

I am now wondering if I am lucky that I have to add a quart of oil every 800 miles, if this test is accurate I can't imaging any of the old Northstars ( that don't burn oil ) going the full length of the OLM and not running out of ZDDP.

Thougt some of you might be interested in these results, not trying to get anything heated started up :-)

AlBundy
05-30-08, 12:03 AM
Good you posted this info as any info is good to determine some sort of conclusions that relates to this engine.:thumbsup: Now I await(like you) the techs/professional opinion to this info.

eldorado1
05-30-08, 12:03 AM
No, ZDDP is zinc and phosphorous, and they look unchanged.

TBN: The Total Base Number. This is a measure of acid-combatting additives. Below 1 is bad.




for what it's worth, rotella T tests around 1000-1500 ppm Zinc when new. CI-4 limit is 1500ppm, CJ-4 limit is 1200ppm

codewize
05-30-08, 09:42 AM
In my professional opinion I would say that we can rule out the fact that your car is anemic.

Submariner409
05-30-08, 09:58 AM
Nothing wrong with that set of samples.....iron is a tad high in the most recent, but not bad....if it continues to go up, then rings/cylinder bores/cam/followers/timing chains are contributors. TBN is low, but if you're continuing to add oil every 1,000 miles, then that's an indicator of the acid control in the new oil formulation, not the loss of TBN, and not ZDDP which is staying right on target.

Oil analyses are a medical record: you don't make a diagnosis until there's either baseline - history trend or sudden illness.

If you're a ZDDP worrier, shift to Pennzoil Long Life 10W-30. It carries a diesel additive package, like Rotella T, and is certified for diesel/gasoline use.

brmurph
05-30-08, 10:54 AM
Thanks all for the clarification. I guess I am still a little confused exactly what TBN is then and why it would be so much less with only 5000 miles vs 7000 (I'll do some research). Good to know that ZDDP is ok.

Another thing to note specific to this report was low Viscosity, it doesn't say it on this report but when they sent me the first report they commented that my oil was equivalant to 20 weight, this report shows even a lower number. They say there are no containminetes in the oil, any comments on that?

Thanks again.

Submariner409
05-30-08, 11:32 AM
You could always cough up the extra $$$ to have a virgin oil sample of your preferred oil tested in order to give you a baseline to work from......different oil producers blend different additive packages.

As below, TBN is the numerical assessment of the amount of acid control left in the oil as tested.

It's entirely possible that Havoline could have a different viscosity value (at test temperature) than a different brand of 10W-30. Again, different blend packages.

Google "oil additive TBN" or "oil analysis TBN".

letsgo
06-14-08, 01:58 PM
Good read. Because of the fairly recent change from api grades sl to sm by removing phosphors, I always check an oils total base number before using it. Other friction modifiers have been added, but I have noticed an obvious decline in alkalinity (TBN) in most sm oils related to this problem. Since I like clean engines, I usually go for an oil with a TBN of 10 or higher. Many of these dropped to an 8 after the new regs.

Ur7x
06-14-08, 07:04 PM
Honestly, I don't get all of this oil testing/analysis etc. etc..

I personally don't know of a single person who has had an oil related engine failure. Yes the oil is different so are our engines.

I figured it out, I have personally logged just shy of 500,000 miles since I started driving 26 years ago... I have been (and continue to be) a lead foot and I drive my cars HARD... Before OLM's I changed the oil every 3000 miles... Now I follow the OLM... I have zero idea how much Al, Fe, Zn, or Pl that any of my engines have scuffed off and guess what... since I've never had a problem I've never given it a second thought.

Fancy oil, fancy testing, looks like a big waste of money to me.

Submariner409
06-14-08, 07:25 PM
In commercial, marine, and fleet use, oil monitoring is a necessary preventative maintenance. Some of those engines run 24/7 for weeks at a time. For personal vehicle use, it's an anal luxury. Modern automobile lubricants are so incredibly close together in their ability to "oil things" that the choice of brands is purely personal, like gasolines, tire companies, and whether Mom and Pop drove Ford, Chevy, or Chrysler.

But, our choice of motor oils is just as individual as our beer or golf clubs. Variety is the spice of life........:sneaky:

thewood
06-14-08, 08:58 PM
I'm 51 years old and I've driven a lot of cars. I find that if you follow the owner's manual specification, either do it yourself or find someone that has the ability to change your oil and filter properly, you shouldn't have any problems with oil or oil related failure. Also, I know that if oil requirement change, the automotive manufactures typically post this out in customer/service advisories as long as your car carries a warranty. This entire controversy with which oil is best is worse then the Coke/Pepsi challenge. Now if you were to be running a Formula One race car with a sponsoring motor oil, you bet your britches you would want the best dam oil bucks that a sponsor is willing to pay you to put that sticker on the side of your racer. Otherwise go down to Wally Mart or Jiffy Luber and do the right thing and install what GM recommends and you shouldn’t have any warranty issues.

limoguy
06-14-08, 10:47 PM
I been using whatever brand (10/30, 10/40, 20/50) the oil change place has on my 98 deville. Shes got 172K+ on it now, still strong & quiet. I did notice one thing. While running the A/C a few weeks ago, she was kinda running temps that were what I considered high.(over 200-221). I discovered it was short 2 qts of oil.That was the reason for higher temps. Now, shes back to normal temps (196-201) with A/C crankin.:yup:

arogue
06-17-08, 11:27 AM
I don't know if this info is applicable in the instance: I own a supply corp and I have been following the following protocols for at least 15 years.

1. @ 4 oz of mineral spirits in crankcase immediately prior to oil change to clean out any sludge.
2. Run engine for @ 10 minutes.
3. After draining old oil, replace with 1 grade heavier oil than recommended
Replace 1 qt of normal engine oil with 1 quart of transmission fluid.

I run gas engines instead of diesel and I never have any problems with any of my engines and don't burn any oil even after 150-200000 miles. I began doing this when I was told by t mechanics, 1 general and another a transmission mechanic(didn't know each other) that this is what they do.

I do this with; my Caddy and my Lincolns prior to this. Never a problem and I change my oil every 6000 miles in my vehicles. The Caddy, I follow the instrument guidelines.

Ranger
06-17-08, 08:08 PM
You don't need all that hocus pocus. Todays oils just don't sludge up like the oils of 20 or 30 years ago. I dropped the oil pan on my wifes '96 Bonneville 3.8 to change the gasket at 100,000+ miles. Guess what, no sludge. I was as clean as it was at 10,000. Nothing more than a light film.

pompste
08-26-08, 05:47 PM
:banghead: By the time we get through ZDDP, Marvel Mystery Oil, Slick 50, GM EOS, CompCams breakin lube, Rotella, Joe Gibbs Racing, Seafoams, and all the variants, this thread will go to 20 pages. Bets, anyone???:halo:

Almost 20 pages------it may get there sometime!