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24K views 167 replies 26 participants last post by  pompste 
#1 ·
Ok, I stumbled uppon this item but from what I am reading, this has been going on since 2002.....Funny I have not seen any mention of it here yet.:canttalk: ...

What do you think of what is being said???????:annoyed:


From UltraVan (email address removed by admin - not allowed)
Granted, the UV engines are a little older than ours, but not all that
much; '63 to '69.

Oil is Killing our Cars

By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596

Oil is Killing our cars Part I

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate
(ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding
and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals
in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting
to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only
thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct
break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major
suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API
(American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and
performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are
using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an
unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated
oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They
continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube.

They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are
needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary.
Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually
available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA)
Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short
discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that
couldn't rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He
has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the
"bad news" we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They
have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in
the bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically
for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability
benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by
replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been
required to remove from the off the-shelf oil".

<<< CONTINUED >>>

Oil is Killing our cars Part 3

Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in
the industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been
very reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our
cars, just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:

#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in!
10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will
destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets.

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of
protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We
are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as
these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag
and has the additive package we need.

#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation"
oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to
increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other
chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing
pollution.
We don't have catalytic converters (mentioned to a specific group) and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is
attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the
molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and
friction.
This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and
tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat
tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the
surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist
pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly
bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer
to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems;
lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage,
by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol
20W-50 GTX is ok. Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.

New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do
best with the Redline 10W- 40 or 10W-30 synthetic.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
:banghead: By the time we get through ZDDP, Marvel Mystery Oil, Slick 50, GM EOS, CompCams breakin lube, Rotella, Joe Gibbs Racing, Seafoams, and all the variants, this thread will go to 20 pages. Bets, anyone???:halo:
 
#6 ·
Oil nowadays most is so good all you have to do is keep the level up & change it. Don't run it low. It helps alot to change it periodically. I don't think alot of you understand that the oil not only lubicates the internal engine parts, it is also is a key part of the cooling system.
 
#7 ·
Well it is interesting to see the remarks from this thread. It shows that most have no idea what has happened in the last year or so in the industry.

The element that is mentioned as removed is the only thing that kept engines running without damage. In the past, with this element in the oil, NO IT WAS NOT AN ADDITIVE ANYONE JUST BOUGHT OFF THE SHELF, the oil industry added it to preserve your engine parts and had added it for as lone as oil has been used in engines. This element allowed engines to run 30 years without damage. Without this element, shops are seeing damage in as little as 3 years.

The comment that all oil is good, well, good luck. Most of the oils have had this element removed, thanks to an agreement by the government and EPA.

There are not many oils that will keep you running now. Most of your familiar oils are affected by this new law.

There are precious few oils now that have the needed element to prevent massive engine wear and the one you are using is probably NOT one of the oils you should use.

The environment of oils has changed, its not the old school anymore and the formulas are changing, for the worse.

You think your everyday oils will do the job? Good luck and start saving for your next engine. You only have about 3 years to save up if you are not using an oil with this element or adding an additive to stop excessive wear that your oils can no longer prevent.

I posted this, appearantly many others have as well, because I ;thought some of you might want to keep your engines running more than 3 years. I hope I was right.

Good luck
 
#8 ·
SLC,
The "element" (ZDDP) has not been removed. It has been reduced. If it were as bad as you say, auto makers would be replacing engines left and right while still under warranty. They are not going to stand still for that type of oil to be put on the market. I am sure todays oils have been thoroughly tested by the oil companies as well as the auto makers. The liability is massive if they are inferior. While there is truth to the article (reduced ZDDP levels), I think there is a bit or wolf crying there. I'll bet the trial lawyers are salivating if they read that article.
 
#11 ·
That's fine and dandy, except for one little problem - most of us here are probably not under warranty. For people with 2000+ northstars, none of this really applies because you have roller cam followers. And chances are you're still under warranty anyways. So my question to you is - do you really think auto makers care about your car that's no longer under warranty?

A subquestion of that would be - would it be beneficial to automakers to cause premature wear to an engine and car which is (presumably) fully paid for and no longer under warranty? :duck:

(wow, normally I step away from conspiracy theories...) While that's probably not the sole specific motivation, I'm sure it doesn't hurt.

Some more reading can be found here:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/

In regards to the frequent oil changes.... take a sample of your oil and send it to a lab to be tested. You'll probably be surprised how long you can go before they (the lab) say you should change your oil. Blackened oil doesn't mean it's bad yet...
 
#9 ·
I posted this, appearantly many others have as well, because I ;thought some of you might want to keep your engines running more than 3 years. I hope I was right.
That's why you CHANGE THE OIL!
What kills engines is the extended drian intervals being used by the car manufacturers these days. They run the oil longer than it is meant to be used. Consumers complain about Too frequent visits to the dealership to hae the oil chaned, so car companies are extending drain intervals to appease the customers. Change your oil at 3000 miles and the problems with premature wear are greatly reduced.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!!
Hmmm I think I see the problem there...
 
#10 ·
What kills engines is the extended drian intervals being used by the car manufacturers these days. They run the oil longer than it is meant to be used. Consumers complain about Too frequent visits to the dealership to hae the oil chaned, so car companies are extending drain intervals to appease the customers. Change your oil at 3000 miles and the problems with premature wear are greatly reduced.
Where do you get this information from?
 
#15 ·
So my question to you is - do you really think auto makers care about your car that's no longer under warranty?
To an extent, yes. how long do you think they would last if all their engines needed replacement after the warranty ran out? I am quite sure they are concerned about their reliability reputation. It can mean life or death.
 
#16 ·
I don't mean instant death after the warranty runs out...

What I can see happening is this-

From the top levels are orders to reduce emissions. now. Engineers get together to see what they can do. ZDDP gets put on the chopping block, and current engines are modified to cope without it. However - the vehicles already out there will wear out 50,000 miles faster. So instead of making it to 250k, they'll die at 200k. (or 100k instead of 150k) Long after the warranty expires... Reducing emissions now is worth more than the reduced life of the vehicles already on the road in terms of brand reputation. On top of that, most people think over 100k miles is "end of life" anyways. That perception is changing though.
 
#17 ·
Ok so I asked several of my old customers about engine problems that own Caddys. and one fella still has the first N* his dealer sold, to him and it has 364k on it, his daughter drives it.
His son has a N* 2 yrs newerjust clicked over 300K, his wifes car has over 260K on it.
His present Cady has 210K on it and he has always used simple Valvoline 10W30 all his life. One of the cars has had head gaskets but I am not sure which one. He has his family change oil beetween 2500 and 3K and so far we havent seen any problems.
I do agree the rduction of ZDDP can cause problems but I do believe that the extended oil changes are stupid ,period.And this is from a Certified Tech and engine builder,,,me. 25+yrs of experience and lots of engine builds(and trust me small block and big block chevys are a heck of a lot harder on cams than N*) and so far I havent seen any problem except from the new and improved extended length oil changes.
My grand father always said that oil needs to be changed regularly and I still preach changes. But I also like using synthetics more now too.
I have been using synthetic for almost 10 yrs and before I used Rotella T like my dad did.
But I also dont like the newer oild and what they looked like coming out of engine with long oil changes on it.
I can believe that if you try to stretch out oilchanges and then they reduce certain anti wear additives nad replace them with other products. do they work as well only time will tell.
I remember hearing horror stories about split weight motor oils too and look at what we see now, everything is split weight.
so far I am not seeing any problems and have sevral people using flat tappet cams in high wear engines that are repeatedly abused(re dragraced) and we freshen them every spring and so far I have only seen one cam with bad lifters and the cam/lifters were 5 yrs old.
now most of these guys are now simply running typical over the counter 10w30 or 10w40 motor oil. No racing oil for these guys. Most of these guys have backed off from high dollar race setups anymore.
I have real doubts, that if properly serviced (as most of these cars are driven several days each week and to the tracks) your going to see a great difference.
Now if you all try to run 5k 6k 7k or even more on one change then yes I figure your going to see problems. My honest ,professional opinion is that you stopp trying to drive expensive luxury cars and cheap out out on oil service intervals.
If you cant afford to spend $20 to $25 bucks every 3000 mile then maybe we need to have people drive cheaper cars.
Then money not spent on fancy cars can be spent on oil changes for the smaller cars.
Sorry had to throw that out.
Change oil regularly.
 
#20 ·
:cool: Curiously, the label on a pint of GM EOS specifically cautions against using EOS or any other supplement as an additive in motor oils for GM gasoline engines. EOS is recommended for breakin of flat tappet cammed engines only. Now my 5 new pints of EOS will sit on the shelf until I finish 2 more Olds 455 boat engines this spring.
 
#21 ·
Qoute:BodybyFisher:
Now with this change, does the Oil Life Monitor need to be revised for the reduced ZDDP package? Can a new OLM algorithm be flashed into the PCM if necessary if the ZDDP is reduced below what the OLM was calibrated for? So in effect by reducing the ZDDP package we will use more oil as our oil changes will be more frequent?

That's a very good point. At what level of ZDDP was the OLM marked for. With all this -ZDDP rated oil now, it should be considered. Can any of you N*/GM Techs guys answer this. I'm not parinoid. I would just like to know.
 
#22 ·
I posted this on other threads. But it appears that even the diesel oils have reduced ZDDP (the newer ones).

The new CJ-4 is what I'm referring to.

The CI-4 is the one that we're recommending.

So how much ZDDP is in EOS? I wonder what the balance is: how much to add to base stock oil (with low ZDDP) in order to restore it to acceptable levels (i.e., those back when the engine was designed).

And sad news: I don't think anyone is going to care to reflash any revised OLM code on older vehicles... they just won't care enough to go through the trouble of revising it.

I'd normally be the last to suggest this, but ZDDP gets used up progressively... until it is depleted. This means that when you have an fresh oil change you're fine. But then it begins to deplete... so the OLM would ideally be revised to reflect changes.... if not, then the choices are adding ZDDP or changing oil sooner (on the flat tappet engines N* from 93-99).
 
#23 · (Edited)
So how much ZDDP is in EOS?

More then enough for oil life. Almost every camshaft manufacturer recommends it for break in.


from http://www.4secondsflat.com/Hydraulic_lifter_cams.html

Valve Adjustment, Cam Break-In - Hydraulic Lifters


IMPORTANT UPDATE:
We highly recommend that you use a pint of GM EOS, engine oil supplement to ensure a good break-in, we wil not sell a cam without a pint of EOS and we insist that it be used for break-in. No exceptions
 
#34 ·
Jeebus!

BTW, in my humble opinion, you can't get much better than the synthetic Rotella T in 5w40. It has the high temperature stability of a synthetic with high ZDDP %. I will check if it is CI or CJ, it's possible it's just the "triple protection" or whatever it was called that is moving to CJ... *sigh*

2nd choice would be EOS with Mobil 1...

Glad to see you guys finally coming around.... I've only been saying this for a year now :bigroll: :thumbsup:
 
G
#35 ·
Jeebus!

BTW, in my humble opinion, you can't get much better than the synthetic Rotella T in 5w40. It has the high temperature stability of a synthetic with high ZDDP %. I will check if it is CI or CJ, it's possible it's just the "triple protection" or whatever it was called that is moving to CJ... *sigh*

2nd choice would be EOS with Mobil 1...

Glad to see you guys finally coming around.... I've only been saying this for a year now :bigroll: :thumbsup:
Hip Hip Hooray..... Many pats on the back :yup:
 
#38 ·
Clark,
I don't have an O'Riellys near me. I'll have to look around, but I still have several gallons & cases of SuperTech (I keep well stocked). May have to shorten my change intervals.

Mtflight,
Did this "Wise Man" happen to address the 15W40 weight as 10W30 is hard to find in diesel applications.
 
#49 ·
Mtflight,
Did this "Wise Man" happen to address the 15W40 weight as 10W30 is hard to find in diesel applications.
Yes, Ranger.

He said 15W40 would be be just fine. (make sure it's CI-4 and not the new reduced ZDDP 2007 CJ-4 -- they will make them concurrently for a while).

He said this was important for the direct acting rubbing element, flat tappets. Your car has roller finger followers... which don't require ZDDP to survive.
 
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