An article in the Robb Report (for the luxury lifestyle) Magazine caught my eye. I won't type the entire article, just the main points. From April 2002, p.98. here it goes:

Autos as Acquired Tastes,

"One of the more poignant moments in American cinema occurs in the 1987 classic TIN MEN, when aluminum siding salesman Danny Devito tells his wife, Barbara Hershey, about the importance of driving a Cadillac. A less substantial vehicle, Devito's character explains, would not instill confidence in his clients, but a Cadillac means you're dealing with someone of importance. Audiences laughed; the movie was set in 1963, and American tastes had changed dramatically since then. Upward mobility baby boomers no longer aspire to Cadillacs. Success meant a Mercedes, a BMW, or a Jaguar. The desire to turn heads was fueling a bull market in Ferraris and Lambourghinis, the ultimate in high powered sex appeal."

"Even then, the more things changed, the more they remaned the same, says Syracuse University Professor Robert Thompson, president of the Popular Culture Association. The way most of us identify our station in life is by the trappings of refinement; gracious homes, art collections, cellars stocked with fine wines. Yet none of these-however rare and costly-signal success and taste as effectively as an automobile. Everyone sees what we drive, while they may not see your art collection in your house."

"How else, for instance, does one explain the BMW M coupe? The average motorist might find its quirky, ugly duckling silhouette amusing, but vintage racer and car collecter Sandy Sadtler, proprietor of restoration specialists Madden & Ryan of Radnor Pa.., was enthralled. "The moment I saw it, I thought anything that looks this homely has to have great performance," says Sadtler, who bought one."

The article goes on to mention how wonderful Mercedes, Jaguar, and Bently are seemingly implying domestic cars are junk!? IMO.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the first add you see in that issue when you open it is for the Cadillac EXT truck! So, why would they let Cadillac advertize in their magazine, and them imply in that article that no one strives to buy a Cadillac anymore! That bothered me! I like all the high-end-toys in the Robb Report mag, but I think Caddy was insulted. Thanks for letting me vent! :devil:

Carry on.........

Oh, I forgot to mention that the first add you see in that issue when you open it is for the Cadillac EXT truck! So, why would they let Cadillac advertize in their magazine, and them imply in that article that no one strives to buy a Cadillac anymore! That bothered me! I like all the high-end-toys in the Robb Report mag, but I think Caddy was insulted. Thanks for letting me vent! :devil:

Carry on.........

I dont think the article was really trying to stick it to Cadillac as it is now, but what Cadillac had become in the late 70's and 80's after its long time reign of supremacy during the 50s and 60s. The latter Cadillac years just were no longer recognizeable in the same way the Classic ones were, and this coupled with some reliability faux-pas in the early eighties caused the image of the whole division to start to go down as a result. Then suddenly in about 1989-90, things began to turn around and eventually brought us down the road of the Seville, Northstar, the (02) Escalade and now the STS and the XLR and DTS of the future. That article was written in 2002, when the future of Art and Science was still just beginning to come together for the brand and I think as the years pass, Cadillac will once again return the throne it once held in the Luxury auto industry.

Also, as always, I really wish there didnt always have to be a comparison to Mercedes and BMW in these things (which truthfully, to Robb Report are still paper plates in most of their daily driver forms). I think its possible for all of these marvelous mfr's to co-exist and make some of the worlds finest cars. It really angers me that these magazines and editorials always seem to immediately throw in comparisons and create this "USA vs the World" philosophy and thus hurt the image of those who appreciate both sides in harmony.

(I got your PM Ralph, dont sweat it, its cool!)

I think the only inaccuracy in the article is perhaps it is not so much that Americans' taste for automobiles had changed, but more so it is an indication of how far behind the foreign brands Cadillac had become in terms of quality, style, performance, and brand image.

Unfortunately the worst insults to Cadillac's reputation are in many cases still on the road today wearing the badge.
It's hurtful to read, but there's definitely a lesson to be learned from it.

Ahh, the Robb Report. The bible of conspicuous consumption.

IMO cadillac did loose some of it's audience in the 70's and 80's but not because they made really bad cars but because of bad marketing teams. back in the day people knew things about cars (i'm not saying u guys don't but you are not even 1% of car owners) that car buyers today just don't want to know and want it handed to them all cut up on a plate by a TV, Magazine, Internet, etc. commertial, cadillac doesn't do that for some reason (how many people out there know that a STS is a 14 second car that has a more comfy ride then a 7series?). and whith all that hype created by commertials those companies were able to steadily raise their prices to something unbelievably high and get away with it, i bet if cadillac made the best commertials about a DTS and it beating a stock Mustang GT, then it started to cost $85,000 just for no reason would it make it a better car? i dont think so, but in time it would be more prestigious to drive.

I dont think the article was really trying to stick it to Cadillac as it is now, but what Cadillac had become in the late 70's and 80's after its long time reign of supremacy during the 50s and 60s. The latter Cadillac years just were no longer recognizeable in the same way the Classic ones were, and this coupled with some reliability faux-pas in the early eighties caused the image of the whole division to start to go down as a result. Then suddenly in about 1989-90, things began to turn around and eventually brought us down the road of the Seville, Northstar, the (02) Escalade and now the STS and the XLR and DTS of the future. That article was written in 2002, when the future of Art and Science was still just beginning to come together for the brand and I think as the years pass, Cadillac will once again return the throne it once held in the Luxury auto industry.

Also, as always, I really wish there didnt always have to be a comparison to Mercedes and BMW in these things (which truthfully, to Robb Report are still paper plates in most of their daily driver forms). I think its possible for all of these marvelous mfr's to co-exist and make some of the worlds finest cars. It really angers me that these magazines and editorials always seem to immediately throw in comparisons and create this "USA vs the World" philosophy and thus hurt the image of those who appreciate both sides in harmony.

(I got your PM Ralph, dont sweat it, its cool!)

I understand what you're saying Dude, but as far as I can figure, the comment about the movie ended when they state, "Upward mobility babyboomers no longer aspire to Cadillacs." (I thought that statement was in reference to today?)

It is strange how some of the "uppity" mags seem to thumb their noses at "inferior American cars." (or still percieve them this way) It's a good thing they did this article BEFORE the XLR and CTS-V arrived on the scene. :rant2: "Car and Driver" seems to me to be a little biased towards the European makes also. :tisk:

In **MY** world, Cadillac & Lincoln are the tops, to strive for. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus and Infiniti don't register even a +1 on my heart thump thump thump chart! Would not drive one, if I won it! Would be sold to a like brand dealer by 3PM of the following day. Ahhh, Audi A8 is a different story, THAT one, I'd keep, along with ANY Jaguar X-cept the "X Type" ~ Vovle S80 Elite I'd keep likewise Saab Aero. DuPunt does not speak for everyone.

Audi A8
Jag XJ / XK8 / S Type "R"
Lincoln Town Car - - Cadillac deVille (Even up)
Volvo S80 Elite
Saab Aero

In THAT order.....

In **MY** world, Cadillac & Lincoln are the tops, to strive for. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Lexus and Infiniti don't register even a +1 on my heart thump thump thump chart! Would not drive one, if I won it! Would be sold to a like brand dealer by 3PM of the following day. Ahhh, Audi A8 is a different story, THAT one, I'd keep, along with ANY Jaguar X-cept the "X Type" ~ Vovle S80 Elite I'd keep likewise Saab Aero. DuPunt does not speak for everyone.

Audi A8
Jag XJ / XK8 / S Type "R"
Lincoln Town Car - - Cadillac deVille (Even up)
Volvo S80 Elite
Saab Aero

In THAT order.....
You are selling yourself short. Benz has consistently made some of the best cars out on the road. I have owned 4 Benzes (I currently own only two) and as a self-described engineering freak, I am totally amazed by how well put together Benzes are. They are not only well-designed, but they are also put together with a great deal of attention to detail. Up to 1991, Benzes (even the top of the line S Class) were fairly easy to repair and maintain. :worship:

I also like Cadillacs. I like Cadillacs for the image they project and I like Cadillac because they (now) are big, fast and comfortable. I also like Caddies because due to their steep depreciation curve, I can pick a barely-used Caddy for next to nothing (comparetively speaking, of course). As long as I can, I will always keep a Caddy and a Benz in my garage.

The other cars that you mentioned (except for the Jag, IMHO) are also fine cars. BTW the March edition of Motor Trend magazine has a head to head comparo between the CTS V and the Jag S type R. The editors called it a dead-heat. For the price differential, however, I'd take a CTS V anytime--gotta love that Vette engine.

u all know i love caddies, they're big, fast, and the most comfy. benz is ridiculously overpriced and is not a bad car (only the s, cl and sl 500 and up) but not worth the money. bimmer is just a very expensive and bumpy hood ornament (a very lame one too). but dont say anything bad about jaguar, i drove an XJR and it's amazing, got to be the best big sports sedan ever (5.4 seconds 0-60 and a race inspired jaguar suspension :worship: ). the a8 is cool too. i like the awd, it's good for a big car like that.

The Robb Report does not shape consumer views, its simply a magazine restating the status quo of upscale opinion. They document trends in luxury living, but do nothing to define it. Especially in terms of automobiles, Robb Report only captures the existing social appeal of a car, but does nothing to shape its perception like Car and Driver, Automobile, and Motor Trend do.

So pay it no mind. Its fun reading when youre stuck at the airport though.

-Jesda

"Upward mobility babyboomers no longer aspire to Cadillacs."
I think this is mainly true. Yes, Cadillac is making vast improvements on quality and design. But it takes time to fix a tarnished image.

The best part is that we can say we drove Cadillacs when Cadillacs weren't cool! I'd much rather be at the front of a trend than behind it.

The Robb Report does not shape consumer views, its simply a magazine restating the status quo of upscale opinion. They document trends in luxury living, but do nothing to define it. Especially in terms of automobiles, Robb Report only captures the existing social appeal of a car, but does nothing to shape its perception like Car and Driver, Automobile, and Motor Trend do.

So pay it no mind. Its fun reading when youre stuck at the airport though.

-Jesda

That's a good observation. It's really like a fashion magazine for cars and gadgets. (I love the gadgets in it)

I think this is mainly true. Yes, Cadillac is making vast improvements on quality and design. But it takes time to fix a tarnished image.

The best part is that we can say we drove Cadillacs when Cadillacs weren't cool! I'd much rather be at the front of a trend than behind it.

The latest is that new Cadillacs ARE better by a thin margin than the European cars, but I suppose even with hard evidence in the likes of J.D., it will take much time to knock European car lovers down a notch, or their car's reputation.

Sorry to be a hipocrit, but DAMN, I love the styling of the new CLK 430!

The latest is that new Cadillacs ARE better by a thin margin than the European cars, but I suppose even with hard evidence in the likes of J.D., it will take much time to knock European car lovers down a notch, or their car's reputation.

Sorry to be a hipocrit, but DAMN, I love the styling of the new CLK 430!


CL65 AMG here :lildevil: ... nice arse on that biotch

Anyways, they are trying very hard to Catch up with the europeans, while still being american... done a good job i think. SRX and CTS are great for euro comparisons.

bimmer is just a very expensive and bumpy hood ornament (a very lame one too).

What?

I wont dignify that (what does that even mean!?) with a response, but I did want to make mention of one manufacturer in particular that should take the cake right now for most successfully putting its feelers in each corner of the market and for the most part putting out very attractive products which have a distinct appeal for each of their target audiences.

VW IMO has done a tremendous job in recent years at developing, reshaping and in some cases, re-evaluating alot of its core industry, and branching out by "rescuing" some floundering manufacturers. A few examples would be the Volkswagen Touareg, Lamborghini (yes) Murcielago, and most of the Audi division along with the acquisition of Bentley.

Despite being a died in the wool Jeep fanatic, I have to admit that the Touareg, for being a one-off first attempt is IMPRESSIVE. I wont get into too much detail, but lets just say it can whoop the ass of half the p*ssy things calling themselves SUVs out there today (yes BMW X5, Merc ML430 and ESPECIALLY the joke called an X3, im callin YOU out you mall hoppers), all with a very good interior and decent power in the V8. Thats whats impressive, VW would have no problem to have just taken the Passat chassis for example, and pump out some car based contraption, but they DIDNT. They went all out and not only provided all the creature comforts of the mall hopper SUVs, but the utility and capability of a Range Rover too.

The new Murcielago takes the best of VWs design engineering, and melds it in without destroying the supercar qualities that make a Lamborghini a Lamborghini.

Audi uses aluminum space frames, smooth and powerful engines and offers some of the best bang for the buck cars out there in the Luxury category (though all VWs, and Audis in general do have some ways to go in correcting technical glitches, im far from calling them perfect here).

In these respects, VW is in its own right as big as the Fords and GMs of the world (VW has its hands in all kinds of automobilia from utility to sports cars) and I think BOTH American and European manufacturers could take a lesson from them in going towards achieving world class status. If Cadillac puts pen to paper on producing some of the concepts weve seen, Robb Report will be lucky to have them grace its pages.

bimmer is just a very expensive and bumpy hood ornament (a very lame one too).

Dont want to sound mean here, but its a lot more than just a "hood ornament". Its a piece of complicated engineering artwork (with a soul practically) made to last and give you excellent quallity and comfort. No im not a BMW Sales rep. Doesnt mean you still cant hate them, thats your personal preference and I have no right to tell you whats right or wrong.

Cadillacs are trying to be the same... heart and soul feel with art and science design.

VW IMO has done a tremendous job in recent years at developing, reshaping and in some cases, re-evaluating alot of its core industry, and branching out by "rescuing" some floundering manufacturers.
I would've agreed, until they decided to move VW up market, where their Audi division already sits.

I think thats the challenge any maker faces that has multi-brands.

Which might be the reason Toyota, is now number 2. It's much easier to focus on a single brand. Yes, I know they have 'Lexus'. But those are just the big Toyotas from their home market.

I would've agreed, until they decided to move VW up market, where their Audi division already sits.

I think thats the challenge any maker faces that has multi-brands.

Which might be the reason Toyota, is now number 2. It's much easier to focus on a single brand. Yes, I know they have 'Lexus'. But those are just the big Toyotas from their home market.

I agree with you HRS, and sorry I forgot to mention this in my post. I beleive they are making a BIG mistake with the Phaeton. Its a nice car and all, but what kind of message are you trying to relay when you produce a car that in all respects is every bit as luxurious and wants to compete in the same category as the one you ALREADY have in your Flagship line (the A8L)? They try to defend this by saying they want their customers to stay with them at each point in their life, but then what is the point of Audi... very very strange logic indeed.

I agree with you HRS, and sorry I forgot to mention this in my post. I beleive they are making a BIG mistake with the Phaeton. Its a nice car and all, but what kind of message are you trying to relay when you produce a car that in all respects is every bit as luxurious and wants to compete in the same category as the one you ALREADY have in your Flagship line (the A8L)? They try to defend this by saying they want their customers to stay with them at each point in their life, but then what is the point of Audi... very very strange logic indeed.

It's good logic if VW is trying to reposition itself as a competitor to BMW- with a wide range of high class vehicles that are better than the fold for a little extra. I mean, man, what is a 3-series cost? in the 30k range? That's Audi territory.. but BMW doesn't have an Audi competitor.

VW can have vehicles in every market, AND even markets below BMW, where BMW is using Cooper (Mini vs Beetle / Golf, anyone?)

I would not be surprised if they're thinking of eliminating Audi in 10 years and folding that clientel into VW. By that time, VW may have a whole new image.

Here's the question: How important is brand?
It's the most important asset a company has.

If VW can fold the Audi brand into it's own, and have people respect it just as much, they may be able to sell their lower priced cars with that same brand image. More sales.

That sounds like a good strategy to me. Stock, anyone?

VW can have vehicles in every market, AND even markets below BMW, where BMW is using Cooper (Mini vs Beetle / Golf, anyone?)
What about Skoda and SEAT?

Hmm.

I guess this is where my unfamiliarity with the European market at large bites me in the ass. These cars don't seem to follow the same mold that the larger brand could follow... maybe a good way to make an extra buck without taking the main brand down a notch?

That would be my guess.