: Traction and ABS warning comes on when starting off



wingerr
01-14-07, 10:55 AM
Just starting to sort out a 1995 Fleetwood Brougham I just got with 197k on the clock, and among the troubles is that the traction and ABS warning lights come on as soon as the car starts moving off.
From what I've read so far, it may be the wheel sensors, bad ABS pump, or control module. Most of the posts seem to be in the Seville/Eldo forum; not sure if the setup is the same.
How are the codes read on the system? I assume it's not the same as the engine diagnostic codes, which are all clear of trouble codes.

Also have a fuel leak somewhere, which surfaced after I put 20 gallons in and took a long drive. There was a strong smell of gas and I saw dribbling from the left rear of the car, but it was raining, so I couldn't really tell if it was gas or just water coming down. I saw the characteristic rainbow diffraction on the ground though, so I don't think it was just water. Is there any known issues of filler pipe problems or stuff of that sort?

Coolant reservoir has a black sludge in there, and I suspect someone added some stop leak gunk at some point. I'm planning to do a drain and fill using Supertech antifreeze; is there anything unusual about drain plugs or procedures on it?

Haven't gotten under the car yet, but wanted to see if anyone has any hints or tips on where to start, before I do it.

TIA,
Wingerr-

Rick186
01-14-07, 12:02 PM
Hello and welcome aboard.:welcome:
Re the cooling system - Run a search on this BB for the TONS of stuff on just that subject. I learned a bunch for my 1995 Fleetwood Brougham which I bought in early June of 1996.
You can be headed for trouble if you do the wrong thing with "mouse milk" in your cooling system, such as clog your heater core which seems to be a weak point with the FWBs. (Following the advice in this board, I blew all sorts of garbage out of my car's heater core and finally got heat)
As far as the other stuff - The best thing you can do is glom on to a good set of Factory Service Manuals.
eBay is one source.
Helm, the big supplier is another.
This BB is another (look in the Classifieds)
>or just stand by and whimper !;)

wingerr
01-14-07, 09:26 PM
Thanks, I'll look into adding factory manuals to my collection-

As it is, if the stop leak gunk was added, it's not doing it anyway, because I can detect a faint odor of coolant after a drive. Still have heat, so hopefully the core hasn't been clogged.

Rick186
01-14-07, 10:11 PM
Hoo Boy!
If you can detect coolant, I pray you haven't got a leak in the heater core!:worship
From what I can see in my manual and from what I read on this BB, it's not a pleasant job replacing the thing. That may be why there's a lot of sealant floating around in the system.
>>Is the floormat wet on the right (passenger) side?
Maybe others on this board can chime in (HEADS UP, GUYS!!!!) and offer some sage advice about this.:hide:

BCs71
01-15-07, 02:09 PM
When you first put the car in drive and start rolling, the ABS system goes through a system check and you should hear the relays under the dash click and make some faint noises. I'm taking a guess that the system check comes back with a fault and therefore giving you the "dash light" which also turns off the ABS/TC systems.
The climate control center will allow you to check codes (engine, tranny, ABS/TC, etc.) which will narrow your guessing down. The factory service manual is also a wonderful tool for anything and everything put into these cars.



With the car running, hold the "OFF" and "Temp Up" buttons down at the same time for about 5 seconds. This will bring up a segment check and then take you into computer "00" (PCM) diagnostics.

Now press the "Out Temp" button and record any codes. If you see a code prefixed by a "1", this is a history code.

Use the "Warmer" button to move on to computer "01" (CCM) and repeat the procedure.

Continue through the last 3 computer systems... 02=HVAC, 03=SIR, 04=ABS/TC


If a code is being displayed, you can select the "OFF" button to instantly clear that code from the system. This will get rid of any intermittent problem and get those lights off of the dashboard. If the problem is real, the code will be set again and the lights will come back on.

As for the fuel leak, you likely have a hole high up on the fuel tank (since you mentioned it occurred after filling it up with 20 gallons) or possibly the fuel lines coming from the tank (fuel filter just inside frame rail on drivers side near rear wheel). There is a connector which could be leaking???
You'll have to crawl underneath and take a peak.

To clean out the coolant tank you will need to remove it so you can properly flush it. If you have gunk in the tank then it likely is everywhere in the cooling system, so it should be flushed. The heater core should be flushed back and forth with a garden hose to blow out the bad stuff.
The engine block can be fully drained by removing the two knock sensors on either side (located just above oil pan and have a single wire coming out of each).
Radiator should be flushed as well.

If you smell coolant then you likely have a leak. The heater core could be the problem, but anywhere really could be the cluprit. Check all hoses and the radiator while you are flushing. ANother common leak area is the water pump. WHen it fails it tends to leak out of the bottom where a weep hole is located (in the center of pump). Check for drips in the pump -- you don't want to leave this leaking.

Another unique thing to note about the cooling system is that it is a closed system. If air is introduced, then it must be bled out. SO once you have flushed and replaced all necessary components be sure to bleed the air out via the screw on top of the t-stat housing (on top of water pump).
VERY important to do this.

Rick186
01-15-07, 11:34 PM
If your heater core is the problem, ROCK AUTO has one for FWB's.
Their price is $130.00 and some change, plus shipping.
It's supposedly an AC/Delco unit which should readily interchange.
You can also Google around for other automotive suppliers and have some fun researching for better prices.
Note, ESPECIALLY, the advice above about bleeding ALL AIR out of the system.
It's really easy with the little screw and locknut atop the waterpump. It will pee a nice stream after all air bubbles have been released.
HOWEVER - - - -
MAKE DAMNED SURE YOU DO NOT GET A BUNCH OF WETNESS DOWN OVER YOUR VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE OPTI-SPARK DISTRIBUTOR WHICH IS RIGHT BELOW THE WATERPUMP!
Good luck.
(BTW, re-reading my first post, above, I noticed I got my years mixed up. I got my FWB in 2006, NOT 1996. Chalk it up to senility and a winter cold or something.)

wingerr
01-16-07, 12:24 AM
Hey, Thanks for all the info- I'll try to pull the codes using the climate control button sequence- that's not something I'd ever have tried by trial and error- :)

The coolant smell is from the engine; I don't smell anything from inside the car, so hopefully the heater core is still intact- that's something I don't want to deal with for sure. It's just a whiff, after a long run, nothing really obvious.
Since it doesn't seem to be losing coolant to any great extent, I was planning on doing a drain and fill without really trying to backflush it to any extent, lest I break loose some wad of gunk that's holding things together right now.

Running temperature looks about 202 degrees from the scanner I hooked up to monitor things- (is it really true there's no on board temperature indication, or is some display out on my dash?) I could understand not having an onboard trip/fuel economy display, but no RPM or temp display is new to me.

I'm thinking the fuel leak is at a filler pipe or something like that, since I don't detect the gas smell any more at 1/2 tank. I wanted to fill up after a highway trip I took, just to get an idea of what kind of MPG's I'm getting, but that was before I noticed the gas dripping. No sense filling it up only to dump it on the ground..

Is there an online place you guys use to get your parts, or is the dealer where the action is? It'd be nice to have a Cadillac equivalent to what I use for my Saab parts, eeuroparts.

Is there such thing as a CD version of the factory manual? I like being able to print out selected pages to work from, and toss 'em when done, rather than being left with a grungy paper manual.

Thanks again for the help!

wingerr
01-16-07, 01:09 AM
Printed out your posts for reference to follow- :worship:

About the climate control- is the airflow direction under complete control of the climate control unit? I don't seem to get much airflow out the front vents, and didn't see any control that redirects it other than maybe defrost send it to the windshield. There's enough heat and the controls seem to work fine, but is the front flow intentionally low?

Does the "exit" feature for the power seats really see much use from most people? Kind of a neat feature, but I figure there's not much need for it and I should save wear and tear on the motors by not using it.

I could have sworn the car had some audible indication of lock and unlock, but now it does it silently, though the courtesy lights coming on do give me some longer distance indication it responded. Is it possibly a switchable option through some magical remote keypress sequence too?

The remote trunk pop button is neat how the lid opens up fully on its own; I was worried for a while I might accidentally press it while driving, but have since discovered that it's locked out when out of park. Whew, no worries about embarrassing dashes out of the car to close the trunk while driving- :bouncy: Still worried about accidentally hitting it while at home, and not knowing about it until the next morning though- if there were some way to lock it out, it'd be a good thing.

The auto dimming rear view mirror is new to me too; very nice feature-

Oh, and the EQ presets- are they factory preset, with no way to change them? Not a big deal, but just another one of the numerous ponderables I've come across. Like, wow, what a tiny glove compartment for a huge car.. :duck:

BCs71
01-16-07, 02:37 PM
So many questions, so many comments!! LOL


Oh, and the EQ presets- are they factory preset, with no way to change them?
You can actually change the presets, there is a procedure in the factory service manual. I don't recall off the top of my head but will try to post it up.


About the climate control- is the airflow direction under complete control of the climate control unit? I don't seem to get much airflow out the front vents, and didn't see any control that redirects it other than maybe defrost send it to the windshield. There's enough heat and the controls seem to work fine, but is the front flow intentionally low?
Search this forum for "roadmaster heat" and you should get more details. But basically the Fleetwood doesn't have the option to spit heat out of the dash vents, but the sister car (Buick Roadmaster) has a plug and play climate control unit with the vent option. Nice cheap & easy upgrade for the FW...


The coolant smell is from the engine; I don't smell anything from inside the car,
Since it doesn't seem to be losing coolant to any great extent, I was planning on doing a drain and fill without really trying to backflush it to any extent, lest I break loose some wad of gunk that's holding things together right now.

One thing to note about coolant leaks and this engine system -- if coolant can get out, then air can get in. So be sure to spot and leaks and stop them. Otherwise the air can cause problems like no heat, hot running temps, check engine lights, etc.






Running temperature looks about 202 degrees from the scanner I hooked up to monitor things- (is it really true there's no on board temperature indication, or is some display out on my dash?) I could understand not having an onboard trip/fuel economy display, but no RPM or temp display is new to me.

Via the climate control panel you can check both coolant temp (in degrees C) and RPM values. Run a search on the forum for the correct sequence (pointer, it is called) to access these.


Is there an online place you guys use to get your parts, or is the dealer where the action is? It'd be nice to have a Cadillac equivalent to what I use for my Saab parts, eeuroparts.
For GM parts there is a parts guy in Ohio who sells at only 10% over dealer cost. He deals in volume and not by gouging the little man like most dealerships. Shipping is also reasonable.
Call: Dal Slabaugh, van devere pont-buick
877-448-5451
Email: lockitup@bright.net




Is there such thing as a CD version of the factory manual? I like being able to print out selected pages to work from, and toss 'em when done, rather than being left with a grungy paper manual.

If you do your own labor on your car, or just want to get to know it better, the $80-90 is REALLY worth it for the factory service manual. This is coming from an extremely cheap ba$tard...

caddycruiser
01-16-07, 02:52 PM
Can't help with the other issues, but here's great information on doing the Roadmaster climate control swap that's only getting more popular--plugs right in, and allows BOTH normal fan speed settings AND you being able to direct airflow where you want it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/rwd-19xx-1985-deville-fleetwood-1985/59695-works-new-roadmaster-heating-system-works.html?highlight=roadmaster+hvac

http://impalassforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=001008#000000


Some more detailed pics of when I installed mine (mixed in with some others):

http://impalassforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=001206#000006

It is, in my view, the best change you can make to the interior from a functional standpoint, and works SO much better--and just like a normal car--that I really have never understood what the deal was with the stock Caddy unit.

caddycruiser
01-16-07, 02:54 PM
Is there an online place you guys use to get your parts, or is the dealer where the action is? It'd be nice to have a Cadillac equivalent to what I use for my Saab parts, eeuroparts.

^^Dal, mentioned in one the previous posts, is great for getting GM parts--especially even if you have no idea of part #, as he's a rolling brain for them. Nice prices too. I usually get various bulbs, trim pieces, etc.--whatever has to come from GM--from him.

Another great place, and similar in pricing, for GM B/D body stuff is RMS Auto Parts.

http://www.rmsautoparts.com

Otherwise, you can't beat RockAuto for most other general things. Terrific database of just about anything you'd want, and great prices.

http://www.rockauto.com

wingerr
01-17-07, 09:02 AM
Via the climate control panel you can check both coolant temp (in degrees C) and RPM values. Run a search on the forum for the correct sequence (pointer, it is called) to access these.


Ran through the sequence to look at the codes, and got 00's on 00(PCM), 01(CCM), and 03(SIR).

02(HVAC) showed 126
04(ABS/TC) showed 161. I *think* that meant a hydraulic pump problem, rather than a wheel sensor like I was hoping it was.

It had entries up to 38 before coming back around to 00, and I wrote them all down, going through everything twice, but some of them looked like they went up from the first time around, like for 05. It read 113 the first time, then 195 by the time I came around again, so maybe that's the temperature reading. It's good that I'll have access to temp readings without having to hook up a scanner to it all the time.

I'll be getting the manual, definitely like to have it for my cars because I'm an avowed DIY'er- ;) Still nothing like experience from you guys that have been there, done that already.

Filled up yesterday, and recorded about 16 mpg over about 240 miles. Didn't see any gas drizzling down, though there was a dark spot on the plastic tank that looked suspect. Either what I saw the other day was simply water dripping down from the rain, with some oil residue from the road, or I need to slosh it around from some accel/decel to cause it to leak.
I was kinda hoping for better numbers than 16, so it would be both a good thing and a bad thing if I found a leak in the tank...

BCs71
01-17-07, 02:16 PM
TACH:
Get into diagnostic mode, hit warmer button until "06" is on display, then hit the "out temp" button and the tach will appear. The RPM value will appear, except with only two digits (i.e., 1200 rpms would be displayed as "12").
It responds quickly when you tap the gas, seems pretty darn accurate.

Can't remember which pointer is for the temp gauge, but you need to press "out temp" at each pointer to see what value is in there.

wingerr
01-19-07, 10:22 PM
Tried the tach display today, works nicely - :)

Also discovered the turn signal reminder feature where it bongs at you if you leave the signals on for a certain distance. Not something I would have noticed except I happened to do it intentionally and then heard it bonging away- clever feature.

Got a shop manual on the way, should be able to put it to some good use, as there's a bunch of things to sort out.

Is Dexron III the specified fluid for the tranny? Checked the fluid and it's a bit hard to see exactly where the level is; it covers the two holes, and while there's a distinct uppermost level, there's a bare patch below it in the center, so it may have just been scraping the sides of the filler tube as it was going through the tube. Is the dipstick supposed to have a weird spiral to it near the top? I can't see any good reason for that, but I can't imagine anything causing it to spiral if it wasn't designed that way. Most dipsticks I've encountered are flat, for the most part. Did they do this to get it to twirl around as it goes in?

Old Fleetwood
01-19-07, 10:40 PM
According to my OWNERS MANUAL for my 1995 FWB, DEXRON III is the correct transmission fluid for the transmission.
Also, the dipstick should have a twist in it. Also those two holes are used as a gauge for YOU.
The fluid level should be BETWEEN the two holes.
As for your 16 miles per gallon, I can only refer to my own experience.
I have a high-slip converter (2200rpm) so I wouldn't expect town mileage to be like that of a Prius, but with a bag of idling, heavy traffic, and all that, I got about 12. Yet, on the road, purely on the road, I got 23!
Others on this board have done better and I think I will also since I believe the injectors might be slightly fouled.
To counter that I've been running doses of TECHRON in a tankful every 4th tank and - sure enough - the slight miss I've noticed has cleared up. It was most noticeable while towing our PopUp RV in direct drive. That's also when our MPG dropped to about 15.
(BTW - I used to be Rick186, but I've cancelled the old ISP and signed on using my new ISP)

wingerr
01-20-07, 12:12 AM
Thanks for the confirmation; Dexron III it is-
I was trying to see if it was within the crosshatch area, I think both holes were covered-

The 16 mpg I got was mostly highway, but there was some local driving in the mix, so it probably accounts for some of that. I noticed it didn't go into closed loop for 10 minutes after starting, so I'll have to try a straight highway run to get an idea of highway mileage.

arivera
01-20-07, 03:00 PM
Hopefully I can help with your ABS issue.

My car was doing the same thing on startup. My engine was also having problems turning over. Ended up being my starter going bad, which somehow kicked on my ABS warning light. Pretty weird. Maybe you can check that out too.

Old Fleetwood
01-20-07, 10:36 PM
Could the "starter going bad" be something that caused a severe voltage SURGE or surges which drive the on board computers nuts and thus gave out with the weird readings?
I wouldn't know for sure, but I think our resident electronics guru, N0DIH, might be able to chime in on this one.
Tom - You by the channel?

wingerr
01-21-07, 11:03 PM
Well, the ABS/Traction lights don't come on until I actually start moving; if I just let it sit without moving after starting, the lights remain off. Was that the same symptoms you had with the starter? That's something I wouldn't have even thought of; pretty strange that it would be that prone to noise from the starter.

I checked the transmission fluid level after a long drive, and it looks like the level's quite a way above the crosshatch.. that's why I saw both dots covered-
Now before I remove the excess, the dipstick is supposed to be fully inserted to check the level, engine running in park and hot, correct?
If that's not the case, I'll have to recheck it with the right procedure-
The other day, starting in 20 degree weather, I put it into drive, and it was slipping for a few seconds without going anywhere, then it seemed to engage and act normally. I'd usually associate that with low fluid level, rather than high, but who knows.

Old Fleetwood
01-21-07, 11:21 PM
Most of the guys on the BB have more experience with the 4L60E than I do, but I wonder if OVERFILLING is causing FOAMING and that's why there is a delay which is actually acting like it's LOW on fluid.
Then again . . .:stirpot: might your transmission need work? :eek:
Geez I hope not!
You might also consider a note to Carolina Performance Transmissions (Shane A. Cobb). I can't say enough about the Stage II unit he built and shipped to the dealer for installation in my '95.
>Off the line it's smooth as silk, especially on ice, but
>if you punch it, the high stall converter lets the LT-1 wind up higher on the torque band so that the car ( as Shane says ) acts like it's 1,000 lbs lighter and it really takes off.
However I just got my butt handed to me at a light by a damn Subaru WRX (I didn't pick my competition properly). I didn't see what it was until I saw those silly little letters on the trunk fading in the distance.

wingerr
01-21-07, 11:40 PM
Most of the guys on the BB have more experience with the 4L60E than I do, but I wonder if OVERFILLING is causing FOAMING and that's why there is a delay which is actually acting like it's LOW on fluid.
Then again . . .:stirpot: might your transmission need work? :eek:
Geez I hope not!

I don't even want to consider that as a possibility! On the plus side, the fluid is nice and pink at least. Other than that one time right after startup in the cold, I haven't noticed the problem. Only other things I noticed is an occasionally uncharacteristic abrupt upshift on light throttle at low speeds, and once when I was going up a steepish parking garage ramp, what felt to me like some puckering slippage, again with light throttle.
For now, I'm going to pin some hope on setting the proper level; there must have been a good reason GM put "DO NOT OVERFILL" on the dipstick in big bold lettering.. Frothy fluid isn't good.



I didn't see what it was until I saw those silly little letters on the trunk fading in the distance.
:duck: I guess that would have been pretty ambitious- :bouncy: