: 02 Deville Sudden Stall



danielscherbing
12-27-06, 01:00 PM
I recently bought a 2002 Deville. I have experienced twice now a sudden engine stall. Once when coming to a stop at a light, I noticed warning lights but didn't hear the motor quit. It fired back up immediately. The second time, I was idling after pulling out of the garage. Engine quit suddenely. It fired back up and has not happened again.
Also, I have noticed a very small flutter in the headlights when driving. It is almost as if they shut off completely for s split second and then are back on. I don't see it happeneing with anything else and I have already replaced the bulbs with no change.
And third, I do notice a rough idle when cold, the motor seems to hop a little. I have tried the injector/fuel cleaners with no change.
The car has approx 61000 miles. Let me know what you think! Thanks!

FrankT
12-27-06, 01:33 PM
Sounds like the ever famous 00 -02 Crankshaft Position Sensors (CKP)'s Reolace both sensors.
Try pulling codes, you may or may not have some.
The sensors are common problems in these years.
Frank

dp102288
12-27-06, 03:04 PM
:yeah: There is a writeup on how to change the sensors in the somewhere on the forum. A search will point you in the right direction.

codewize
12-27-06, 11:50 PM
Yup, again.

Submariner409
12-28-06, 01:29 PM
:confused: This is just a SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess), but the headlight "flutter" may be due to the microsecond shutdown caused by the crankshaft position sensor(s) triggering an intermittent "engine off" signal. We would like to find out if that problem disappears after you replace the CKP sensors 1 AND 2.

dp102288
12-28-06, 09:51 PM
^^ :hmm: Very interesting with the shutoff signal...

turbojimmy
12-29-06, 09:42 AM
The headlights on my '01 will dim suddenly at random, but only for a split second. It corresponds with some other clicking sound at the back of the car. I guess it's some kind of big electrical draw. They don't shut off, but I can see them dim very briefly if I'm sitting in traffic and the lights are reflecting off of someone's car. I haven't noticed it while driving but I'm sure it happens.

Also, I'd guess your crankshaft position sensor(s) are bad (and not related to the headlights).

Jim

Submariner409
12-29-06, 09:53 AM
^^ Turbojimmy......Could your headlight dimming be caused by the ride height compressor cycling? If so, there MAY be an air leak somewhere back there......A flood rebuild may have a loose hose nipple or something.....

turbojimmy
12-29-06, 10:05 AM
^^ Turbojimmy......Could your headlight dimming be caused by the ride height compressor cycling? If so, there MAY be an air leak somewhere back there......A flood rebuild may have a loose hose nipple or something.....

I'm not sure. I replaced the compressor when I rebuilt the car. I've never tried to pinpoint the noise. Today I was putting air in the left rear tire (slow leak) and I heard the clicking. Not sure what it is. It's always 6 clicks, kind of like an on/off, on/off, on/off kind of thing. Until today it sounded like it was in my front driver's side door.

Jim

dp102288
12-29-06, 10:08 AM
Interesting idea about the leaky air compressor!

Submariner409
12-29-06, 10:10 AM
^^ This is one for Sherlock Holmes. Let us know when you find the bug!

FrankT
12-29-06, 10:47 AM
The headlights on my '01 will dim suddenly at random, but only for a split second. It corresponds with some other clicking sound at the back of the car. I guess it's some kind of big electrical draw. They don't shut off, but I can see them dim very briefly if I'm sitting in traffic and the lights are reflecting off of someone's car. I haven't noticed it while driving but I'm sure it happens.

Also, I'd guess your crankshaft position sensor(s) are bad (and not related to the headlights).

Jim

Turbojimmy,
I think it's the AIR pump active self-test. The algorithm for the AIR pump is such that it will perform an active test at very low speeds and light load conditions. When the AIR algo kicks in to perform the test it will run the pump for a few seconds ON/OFF about three times, then watches to see if the H02S switch lean.

The AIR Pump has an in-rush current of about 55 amps, then draws a steady 25-30 amps. So you are correct that its a big electrical draw, but a normal one.

If you want to verify if it's indeed the AIR Pump, pull the AIR Pump fuse for a few days and see if your headlights stop the dimming. If it does then we found your strange anomaly, replace the fuse and clear DTC P0410.

Not all cars have the AIR system, but in 01 I think that all Devills have it.
Happy New Year,
Frank

Ranger
12-29-06, 11:04 AM
FWIW, I have noticed the same momentary dimming of my headlights on my '02 SLS & my '03 DHS. I don't think it is related to the AIR pump as I notice it when the engine is up to operating temperature so the AIR pump should not be cycling on at that point. I believe whatever it is, is normal since both cars have experienced it and I have heard others mention it.

FrankT
12-29-06, 11:13 AM
FWIW, I have noticed the same momentary dimming of my headlights on my '02 SLS & my '03 DHS. I don't think it is related to the AIR pump as I notice it when the engine is up to operating temperature so the AIR pump should not be cycling on at that point. I believe whatever it is, is normal since both cars have experienced it and I have heard others mention it.


Ranger,
You are correct the AIR Pump runs when the engine is cold to help accerlaerate the catlyst warm up.

However, the PCM runs two tests to diagnose the AIR system: Passive, and Active. The active test runs when the engine is warm. See below copy and past from FSM.


Active Tests


• The engine is running.
• The engine speed is more than 600 RPM.
• The throttle is steady.
• The engine load is less than 80 percent .
• The system voltage is more than 10.5 volts.
• The MAF is less than 35 g/s.
• The fuel system is in closed-loop operation.
• The EVAP purge is active.
• The ECT is more than 68C (154F).

Happy New Year Ranger :cheers:

turbojimmy
12-29-06, 12:32 PM
Makes sense to me. I'm not really worried about it, just curious. So what's the clicking? The relay? The clicking is in the back.

Jim

FrankT
12-29-06, 01:18 PM
Makes sense to me. I'm not really worried about it, just curious. So what's the clicking? The relay? The clicking is in the back.

Jim

The AIR Pump relay is in the engine compartment. I'm not sure why you are hearing a clicking from the back of the car.

Ranger
12-29-06, 05:47 PM
Hmm, that just might be it Frank. Thanks.:thumbsup:

FrankT
12-29-06, 07:42 PM
NP!
Have a Happy New Year everybody!
Rember don't :drink2: : and :cycle:

dp102288
12-29-06, 10:04 PM
Ranger,
You are correct the AIR Pump runs when the engine is cold to help accerlaerate the catlyst warm up.

However, the PCM runs two tests to diagnose the AIR system: Passive, and Active. The active test runs when the engine is warm. See below copy and past from FSM.


Active Tests


The engine is running.
The engine speed is more than 600 RPM.
The throttle is steady.
The engine load is less than 80 percent .
The system voltage is more than 10.5 volts.
The MAF is less than 35 g/s.
The fuel system is in closed-loop operation.
The EVAP purge is active.
The ECT is more than 68C (154F).

Happy New Year Ranger :cheers:

Oh interesting! :thumbsup:

turbojimmy
12-30-06, 06:13 AM
The AIR Pump relay is in the engine compartment. I'm not sure why you are hearing a clicking from the back of the car.

I'm not 100% sure if the dimming of the lights corresponds with the clicking, but I've been curious about the clicking sound. I think it might have something to do with the suspension. When I was putting air in the left rear tire while the car was running it did it. It sounded like whatever was clicking was right there, maybe in front of the rear tire. That would either be one of the solenoids on the EVAP canister or maybe noise from a relay being transmitted through the floor. I'm thinking it's the EVAP canister (which I also replaced).

Thanks Frank, and Happy New Year to you too!

Jim

Ranger
12-30-06, 01:40 PM
Are you sure it is not the ELC compressor?

danielscherbing
01-02-07, 01:25 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. How hard is it to change the sensors myself? Any idea where to locate parts or should I just bend over and take it to the dealer?
Is this a notes issue with Cadillac? If so, will my GM Extended warranty cover this problem?
Also, as a side note for exhaust upgrades. I recently upgraded my exhaust with the following. Removed the highflow muffler after cat and replaced with stainless pipe, removed stock mufflers and replaced with Dynomax Super Turbos. The sound improvement is very minimal at first. At WOT, she does scream quite a bit and I noticed an instant acceleration increase as the tires chirped in first and second. After a couple of hundred miles, the sound has mellowed out a little. Overall, it is almost unnoticable at idle but definetely there at WOT! Cheap too. $80 for the pair of mufflers and $130 for the install!
Any other ideas on performance upgrades?

Ranger
01-02-07, 05:07 PM
If you have an extended warranty, it should be covered.

danielscherbing
01-02-07, 05:12 PM
I purchased GM Major Warranty Coverage, the best available for a used GM. How do I apply this repair to the warranty if I can't get it to fail again? I doubt I can walk in to a dealership and convince them to change those sensors on my say so.

Ranger
01-02-07, 06:30 PM
I purchased GM Major Warranty Coverage, the best available for a used GM. How do I apply this repair to the warranty if I can't get it to fail again? I doubt I can walk in to a dealership and convince them to change those sensors on my say so.

THAT may be a problem unless it is storing a code. Talk to the dealer and see what they say. Maybe taking a "snap shot" with the onboard diagnostics when it fails will help. Dealers are well aware of the CKP sensor problem. They may take your word on it because it is so common.

FrankT
01-02-07, 06:41 PM
I purchased GM Major Warranty Coverage, the best available for a used GM. How do I apply this repair to the warranty if I can't get it to fail again? I doubt I can walk in to a dealership and convince them to change those sensors on my say so.

I understand your concern. I think that the dealers have a very good understanding of what’s wrong just by the symptoms you are describing. This is a fairly common problem with 00 –02 Caddy’s. There may also be DTCs stored the PCM to help them.

danielscherbing
01-02-07, 08:39 PM
Ok, good advice. Thanks
And how do I pull the 'codes' or use the diagnostic when it fails?

Ranger
01-02-07, 08:59 PM
See the sticky in the Tech Tips section for how to pull the DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes). Not sure how to take a "snap shot". That will be in the FSM or the dealer will tell you how. May not need it though if a DTC for the CKP is set. That will be your smoking gun. Deficer the DTC's here. http://myweb.accessus.net/~090/dtcobd2.html

danielscherbing
01-08-07, 12:17 PM
I have been pondering this problem and was wondering. All of the solutions point to faulty crankshaft position sensors. This problem would only prevent the vehicle from noticing the stall of the engine. Fixing this would not fix the actual problem of why it is stalling. If the computer is not pulling any codes, what is the problem that would casue the engine to stall? Thanks!

Ranger
01-08-07, 12:38 PM
If it is an '02, it is stalling and it has the original CKP's, they are the problem. It's all but guaranteed. Don't analyze it, just change them.

turbojimmy
01-08-07, 01:19 PM
I have been pondering this problem and was wondering. All of the solutions point to faulty crankshaft position sensors. This problem would only prevent the vehicle from noticing the stall of the engine. Fixing this would not fix the actual problem of why it is stalling. If the computer is not pulling any codes, what is the problem that would casue the engine to stall? Thanks!

The faulty crankshaft position sensors cause the stall. Has something to do with inconsistent information being reported between the sensors. It will stall without throwing a code. Eventually you'll get a misfire code and/or a CKP code but by that time the problem is pretty obvious.

Jim

GreenMachine
01-13-07, 12:09 AM
I notice a slight dim when I hit the brakes to stop, the intermittent dimming is almost un-noticeable since I got a new battery.

Rag64top
01-13-07, 01:03 AM
I am wondering the these crank sensors are bad in my 99 Eldo also.
Do they 99's have the same problem.
I have had the car stall the last few times I have used it, with no codes.
Not related, but my headlights dim when I hit the brakes too!

Not sure what I got myself into with this car, seems like there is always something new popping up. Hopefully it's just getting the bugs out of a 96K car.

Peace
Rags

Ranger
01-13-07, 11:57 AM
While any CKP sensor can fail, the '99's are not known for it.

Cad tech
01-13-07, 08:12 PM
there was a campaign for them is 00 for the 98-00 did alot....should pop a ses light on though.....

Tony007
01-14-07, 10:16 AM
My wifes 99 Concours has had this problem for some time - guess I should replace the sensors - is it an easy job to do?

Tony

Cad tech
01-14-07, 09:03 PM
depends on what you call easy lol, real easy though unless your car is equipped with oil cooler, that point they are tight..if it does hire it out should be at about 1.5 hrs labor, if it has no oil cooler lines try it out, 1 10mm bolt holding each one in.....

Tony007
01-15-07, 07:06 AM
Could you tell me the exact location? I don't think there is an oil cooler on the car - unless they all have on. Its a stock 99 Concours.

Thanks
Tony

GreenMachine
01-15-07, 08:03 AM
if you haven't cleaned the throttle body or done any work to the plugs/wires, it may have something to do with it. I had intermittent stalls and new plugs fixed it up, then TB cleaning helped th idle out and pick up. If you find on cold says your pedal sticking its overdue for a TB cleaning.

Cad tech
01-15-07, 10:45 AM
Raise and support the vehicle. Refer to Lifting and Jacking the Vehicle in General Information.
Remove the air deflector. Refer to Air Deflector Replacement - Front in Body Front End.
Remove the oil filter adaptor. Refer to Oil Filter Adapter Replacement in Engine Mechanical 4.6L.
Disconnect the crankshaft position sensor electrical connector.
Remove the crankshaft sensor retaining bolt.
Remove the crankshaft sensor.
Installation Procedure





Important
Inspect the crankshaft sensor O-ring for wear or damage. If a problem is found, replace the O-ring.


Lubricate the crankshaft sensor O-ring with clean engine oil.

Notice
Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.


Install the crankshaft sensor and the retaining bolt. Tighten
Tighten the retaining bolt between 10 Nm (89 lb in).

Connect the crankshaft position sensor electrical connector.
Install the oil filter adaptor. Refer to Oil Filter Adapter Replacement in Engine Mechanical 4.6L.
Install the air deflector. Refer to Air Deflector Replacement - Front in Body Front End.
Lower the vehicle.
Operate the engine and inspect crankshaft sensor for engine oil leaks.