: light knocking... does not go away....



mtflight
12-27-06, 01:25 AM
I've always heard a little rhythmic tick in my L37 since I got it at 68K miles below book value then. It just turned 100000, and a friend noticed it was knocking.

This is after a long roadtrip with plenty of WOT. I thought it was because I parked at an incline. But then I started looking for the sound and it's always there. Not very loud, but noticeable if you look for it. I do hear it more on the passenger side. So the sound is more noticeable now than it was back then.

So I had another friend, who's been a backyard mechanic for fun, listen to it. He said it sounded like a lifter... then asked me to rev it, and I got it up to about 4000 and back down.... he said the sound did not go away and therefore it is more of a knock, and less likely to be a lifter.

I have 6K miles left on my extended warranty. I'm thinking of taking her to Pep Boys (pretty honest in my experience), because they diagnose the problem for free. If they say it's a problem, I'll file a claim w the warranty company. I'd try to get one of the rebuilt Northstars in it, the ones that have been Timeserted and include a 3 yr warranty with no mileage limitation (around $3k).

The alternative of course, is ignoring it since it runs fine, but if it threw a rod after the warranty expired... I'd be out of luck.
Another question is... I've done the last 2 oil changes and didn't really keep track of the miles or receipts very well. Will this be an issue?

Thoughts welcome, please. :canttalk:

codewize
12-27-06, 11:38 AM
First of all a tick and a knock sound very different. A tick is going to be high pitched more metallic like if you were tapping a pen on a hard counter top. A knock is going to be a little lower in tone and more of a dull sound as if you were tapping your knuckle on the same hard counter top.

Having said that it looks like you've changed the oil twice in 32k so that's one oil change for every 16k. That's a bit long. According to spec you should have AT LEAST 3 changes in there. I highly doubt that's the cause of the problem but you asked.

Ticking is usually top end, valve-train and such.
Knocking is usually bottom end. Rods, wrist-pins etc.

Before you go crazy make sure it is what you think it is. A lot of times an accessory pulley or bearing will make a noise that's sounds a lot worse than it it. If it wasn't there before and it definitely is now, you have a warranty, get it looked at.

dkozloski
12-27-06, 11:53 AM
There has been some lower end knocking reported involving the front main bearing. This is verified by loosening the serpentine belt tension and seeing if the knock goes away. At one time there was a kit just for this. Try looking in the FAQ's. If the noise is from this source it's harmless.

codewize
12-27-06, 11:55 AM
Really? hmm interesting. I had no idea. Good post, thanks.


There has been some lower end knocking reported involving the front main bearing. This is verified by loosening the serpentine belt tension and seeing if the knock goes away. At one time there was a kit just for this. Try looking in the FAQ's. If the noise is from this source it's harmless.

acklac7
12-27-06, 02:15 PM
So I had another friend, who's been a backyard mechanic for fun, listen to it. He said it sounded like a lifter... then asked me to rev it, and I got it up to about 4000 and back down.... he said the sound did not go away and therefore it is more of a knock, and less likely to be a lifter.


Can anyone verify this? I.E. that a lifter related knock will dissipate after a certain RPM. The reason I ask is I have been experiencing a nasty intermittent upper knock for sometime now. When she’s knocking you can hear it down the street. Then, for whatever reason, the knock goes away, sometimes for weeks. I have noticed the knock increases in frequency with RPM's, however once the tach reaches 2500 RPM's the knock goes away. I'm hoping it's just a sticky lifter, and some MMO will cure it. Would a collapsed lifter knock intermittently?

Don't mean to hi-jack your post MT, but the two topics are fairly related ;)



There has been some lower end knocking reported involving the front main bearing. This is verified by loosening the serpentine belt tension and seeing if the knock goes away. At one time there was a kit just for this. Try looking in the FAQ's. If the noise is from this source it's harmless.

I could be wrong, but I thought the harmless lower knock was in the 4.9, not the N*.

dp102288
12-27-06, 02:40 PM
I have 6K miles left on my extended warranty. I'm thinking of taking her to Pep Boys (pretty honest in my experience), because they diagnose the problem for free. If they say it's a problem, I'll file a claim w the warranty company. I'd try to get one of the rebuilt Northstars in it, the ones that have been Timeserted and include a 3 yr warranty with no mileage limitation (around $3k).

The alternative of course, is ignoring it since it runs fine, but if it threw a rod after the warranty expired... I'd be out of luck.
Another question is... I've done the last 2 oil changes and didn't really keep track of the miles or receipts very well. Will this be an issue?

Thoughts welcome, please. :canttalk:

Since you have the warranty, get it fixed. Even if Pep Boys says its not an issue, find a place that does (dealer most likely). Knocks are pretty bad in my view and I would get it done while you are covered. It would be a shame if after the warranty expired, something serious happened.

dkozloski
12-27-06, 04:21 PM
Can anyone verify this? I.E. that a lifter related knock will dissipate after a certain RPM. The reason I ask is I have been experiencing a nasty intermittent upper knock for sometime now. When she’s knocking you can hear it down the street. Then, for whatever reason, the knock goes away, sometimes for weeks. I have noticed the knock increases in frequency with RPM's, however once the tach reaches 2500 RPM's the knock goes away. I'm hoping it's just a sticky lifter, and some MMO will cure it. Would a collapsed lifter knock intermittently?

Don't mean to hi-jack your post MT, but the two topics are fairly related ;)




I could be wrong, but I thought the harmless lower knock was in the 4.9, not the N*.
There have been some similar noises in Northstars.

mtflight
12-27-06, 06:25 PM
Thanks for the help guys. Koz, I'll look into the main bearing.. haven't had much luck finding the info on the how to but hopefully I can tell the mechanic and he'll know how to do that.

What tools does one need to do that?

Oh and Codewize, I did the last 2 oil changes myself, but have always changed the oil either with the OLM or early. I won't have problems getting receipts from walmart or whoever did my oil changes prior to , if I need them.

I do hope it's the main bearing or something harmless like that. The sound has definitely always been there, just that it is sometimes more noticeable. The odds of it being something like a rod I think are extremely small.... but God only knows. Thanks again.

Tommy Deville
12-27-06, 06:28 PM
Seems all Caddy Motors since the HT4100 was introduced all have had "harmless" knocking issues, My fathers/my 83 Deville knocked fo so long that after I had the bottom & upper half of the motor rebuilt it did not seem normal to not have the knock.

Ranger
12-27-06, 07:51 PM
Mtflight,
All you need is a 1/2" drive breaker bar. Put the drive lug in the square hole in the tensioner pully and release the tension just enough to let the belt slip. If the noise goes away it is either one of the pully bearings (alternator, P/S pump or compressor clutch) or the main bearing, though I have to admit that I have never heard of that associated with the Northstar. I though it was a 4.9 anomily.

danbuc
12-27-06, 08:19 PM
I haven't heard of any problems with minor play in the crank bearing on the N* either. I know on the 4.9 it had to do with the way the belt was routed around the balancer pulley, stressing it more in one direction. Mine has a slight knock to it, but it goes away as soon as you give it gas. Even the slightest amount of throttle and induction noise overtakes it. Noises like that can be produced by almost anything in the engine from a lifter, to a failing chain tensioner creating slack in the chain (which will then contact either the timing case, or some other parts of the engine). Noises from timing components (like mine) tend to dissipate once you hit the gas. More oil pressure, and an increase in overall engine noise tend to drown it out. If you can still hear the knock all the way up to 4k rpm, I would tend to thing it may be a problem further down in the block. These motors are pretty loud at 4k. Can you hear if from within the car? Did you try to get underneath the car and listen for it there? I had a C240 come in the shop the other day with a loud knock up until about 2300rpm. When I had it running on the lift, I could have sworn the knock was coming from the rear of the block, like it had spun a rod bearing towards the rear of the engine. Turns out the timing chain tensioner had failed, and there was way too much slack in the chain causing it to hit the timing case. After about 2300rpm though, the chain was moving so fast that the oscillations got smaller keeping if off the timing case walls. See if you can get a long piece of fuel tubing (or mechanics stethoscope would be better) and move it around in the engine compartment to try and pinpoint the noise. Just doing it by ear is nearly impossible since noise can reverberate off the one side of the engine compartment and sound louder on the opposite side. That how the caddy dealer in Orlando managed to misdiagnose the whine from my failing transmission pumps, as an alternator bearing. Both similar sounds, but on completely opposite sides of the engine bay.

Good Luck finding the source. Noises like that suck, cause they can be a real bitch to find.

dp102288
12-27-06, 10:06 PM
Good Luck finding the source. Noises like that suck, cause they can be a real bitch to find.

:yeah: and you are not sure if its serious or not! :mad:

dkozloski
12-27-06, 10:46 PM
In an old post Bbob said to try running it with no serpentine belt at all just to eliminate accessories. The water pump still turns so it's safe. I'd also cut the oil filter apart and look for babbit metal

mtflight
12-28-06, 12:14 AM
Mine has a slight knock to it, but it goes away as soon as you give it gas. Even the slightest amount of throttle and induction noise overtakes it. Noises like that can be produced by almost anything in the engine from a lifter, to a failing chain tensioner creating slack in the chain (which will then contact either the timing case, or some other parts of the engine). Noises from timing components (like mine) tend to dissipate once you hit the gas. More oil pressure, and an increase in overall engine noise tend to drown it out. If you can still hear the knock all the way up to 4k rpm, I would tend to thing it may be a problem further down in the block. These motors are pretty loud at 4k.

Can you hear if from within the car? Did you try to get underneath the car and listen for it there? See if you can get a long piece of fuel tubing (or mechanics stethoscope would be better) and move it around in the engine compartment to try and pinpoint the noise. Just doing it by ear is nearly impossible since noise can reverberate off the one side of the engine compartment and sound louder on the opposite side. That how the caddy dealer in Orlando managed to misdiagnose the whine from my failing transmission pumps, as an alternator bearing. Both similar sounds, but on completely opposite sides of the engine bay.

Good Luck finding the source. Noises like that suck, cause they can be a real bitch to find.

I have a mechanic's stethoscope (the one with the metal wand) and when I put it on the bottom of the engine all I hear is a steady sound kind of like a bearing spinning. I don't hear the noise then (or I didn't months ago when I listened for it).

I can't hear it in the flightdeck. I can only hear it sometimes if I stand outside, if I listen for it somewhere quiet with the hood open, or if it happens to bounce off a wall and I have my window down (like a drive-through).

The sound has likely been there since I got the car, but noticed it about a year ago. I'll have to have someone rev it while I listen to it.

From danbuc's description it sounds like it may be similar to his sound... what startled me was the opinion of a friend with plenty of backyard experience (but no Northstar experience).

I'll try the breaker bar--if the sound goes away I'll be very relieved.

Thanks guys.. I appreciate the help.

Elmer Fudd
12-28-06, 08:07 PM
My 99 Concours has a lifter tick on the back side for the past 10k miles. You can hear it up to about 2000 RPM then it goes away. Not loud and certainly not heavy, but just enough to be annoying. It is not always loud enough to hear under 2000. Caddy Dealer and After market mechanics both say ignore it. Have tried every lifter quieting snake oil out there, no change at all. Car runs great. Just did 300 mile round trip from Alabama to Mississippi and back. 27 MPG at 60 mph, 21 MPG at 85+ (yes in Al. and Ms. that is a “normal” highway speed). More power and acceleration than I’ll ever need…….

It takes a Lickin….and keeps on Tickin….lol

eldorado1
12-28-06, 08:29 PM
To eliminate/possibly implicate the lower end, you can try disconnecting the injectors one at a time to see if any one cylinder louder than the others... What this does is load/unload the piston during the compression and power stroke. This tends to make rod knocks more noticable as usually the rod and bearings are in compression except for the intake stroke.

Do NOT pull plug wires, use the injectors to disable cylinders. Otherwise you can hydrolock the engine.

Also note the computer won't like this, so you should reset it when you're done.

dp102288
12-28-06, 08:44 PM
^^ Good idea with the injectors...

acklac7
12-28-06, 10:28 PM
My 99 Concours has a lifter tick on the back side for the past 10k miles. You can hear it up to about 2000 RPM then it goes away.

Car runs great...... More power and acceleration than I’ll ever need…….

It takes a Lickin….and keeps on Tickin….lol

I might also add that my Eldo still runs like a top, even when the blasted ticking/knocking rears it's ugly head. I still give her plenty of WOT's and drive it like I stole it...She puuurrrrss.

Not sure if this will help, but it almost sounds like a couple of spoons are attached to the cam. When the cam spins it sounds like "spoons" are rapping the inside of the block. The knock increases in frequency until about 2500 rpm then it's gone. You can barely hear it with the windows up, but role down the windows and it is very prominent. Starting to think it might be a failing chain tensioner? Danbuc, were your problems intermittent? or did you have a "clankity-clank" all the time?

dkozloski
12-28-06, 11:45 PM
At slower speeds the slack in a timing chain can be concentrated in one area and slap the inside of the block. As RPM's increase the centrifugal force distributes the slack and the slapping quits.

eldorado1
12-29-06, 07:32 AM
Why would there be slack in the timing chain?

dkozloski
12-29-06, 11:18 AM
Why would there be slack in the timing chain?
Wear or a chain tensioner problem.

mtflight
01-03-07, 04:53 PM
Ok an update. 1000+ mile trip, no issues... awesome performance, as usual. Effortless passing, reaching 110MPH as a top speed during a passing maneuver according to my GPS log.

I took the car to PepBoys, and the service manager listened to it. He said he identified a few noises, normal injector ticking, timing tensioner slack noise (he was pointing at the waterpump when he said that so I took it with a grain of salt), and power steering pump noise.

I then asked him about the knocking and told him I had a warranty. He said in that case what I need is an "engine shop."

So.. I look up engine shops and come up with one called American Engine, who said they don't install N* from other parties, but only their own which are used. I asked him if they were remanufactured--and he said that engine cannot be rebuilt and not to believe "Joe's Shop" if he said that. At that point I knew I was talking to the wrong person.

My next step would be taking it to the dealership... but they would likely replace it with a new engine and I'd possibly get stuck paying the difference in terms of labor costs (if the alloted labor rate by the warranty folks is less than the asking price at the dealership).

I don't know if this is serious or not. It is more of a knock than a tick/ping, but it's not noticeable in the car unless you listen for it and are next to a wall. It does not sound as bad as a VW 1.8T, but similar.

I did take note of the pattern... at idle it is close to a steady 6 knocks per second, which is roughly half the RPM. I read somewhere that half the RPM is valve-train, but I can't verify that. Any thoughts?


Ideally the warranty company would identify it as a problem that needs to be addressed, and would approve an engine like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-99-Remanufactured-Cadillac-Northstar-Engine-Y-or-9_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ003QQitemZ1 30065244247QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW that comes with a 3 yr unlimited mile warranty, installed at shop X.

What I like about those engines is the warranty, and the fact that they've been TimeSerted.

Ranger
01-03-07, 06:17 PM
"I did take note of the pattern... at idle it is close to a steady 6 knocks per second, which is roughly half the RPM. I read somewhere that half the RPM is valve-train, but I can't verify that. Any thoughts?"

Well, intake stroke & compression stroke = 2 cycles (1 crankshaft revolution). Power stroke & exhaust stroke = 2 cycles (1 crankshaft revolution). So 4 cycles (on a 4 cycles engine) = 2 revolutions, but the intake valve will only open & close one one. Likewise the exhaust valve. Thus cams will rotate at half the crankshaft RPM. Did that make sense?

mtflight
01-03-07, 08:46 PM
Hey Ranger, Happy new year.

So you're saying it's in rhythm with the crankshaft? Would that reduce the severity/seriousness of the knock?

Update: I found a shop that will replace the engine (if I provide it) for $750. They will also listen to it and deal with the warranty company if necessary. So I'm taking it this Saturday.

They think a N* with a 3 yr/unlimited mile warranty is a good deal. I just hope that the warranty company doesn't give me the run around or want to provide their own (un-TimeSerted) used engine.

My hopes is that they'd think $2700 + 750 is a good deal and leave it at that.

The gasket set is extra and they recommend I put in a new waterpump.

I have 5K miles left on this warranty and no claims to date in 2 yrs except for a jump-start.

Ranger
01-03-07, 09:12 PM
No. I'm saying you were correct. Cams run 1/2 the crank RPM.

My guess is that the warranty co. is not going to replace the engine unless it fails or is definately diagnosed as terminal.

Water pump on a Northstar is so easy to do and is not a high failure item. I'd let it go and replace it when and if needed.

mtflight
01-03-07, 09:46 PM
Does the frequecy (rhythm) rule out a rod bearing or wrist pin?

I'd hope the shop would think any knock is not good, and proceed to let the warranty company know it's a timebomb.

There are a couple of other issues... it pings when I put anything less than premium and it is shaky at idle. Maybe these are enough factors to diagnose it?

I am totally turned on by a replacement engine with such warranty and no headgasket troubles in the future (TimeSerted).

In the 3 yrs of warranty I can easily add 45K miles and once it's TimeSerted, a headgasket could be replaced with the engine in the car (although TimeSerted it would be rare to pull a Sert out, and I obviously do preventive maintenace/replace coolant, etc). The engine would become bullet proof.

The tough part may be convincing the warranty company that I need the engine from Wisconsin.

Ranger
01-03-07, 09:55 PM
My guess would be yes, if the frequency is 1/2 the RPM, you could rule out rods or wrist pins. Shaky at idle might be a lifter. A stethescope on the cam covers might help isolate it.

Remember, the warranty co. is not your friend. They will not jump at the chance to replace an engine, but more likely will try to find proof that it is ok or is not covered. I would expect htat they will want a good solid diagnosis and may have their own adjuster look at it.

mtflight
01-03-07, 10:07 PM
edit: i replied to wrong thread

Ranger
01-03-07, 10:12 PM
edit: i replied to wrong thread

I deleted it for you.

eldorado1
01-03-07, 10:18 PM
Thinking about this logically... if it's a rod issue, it would knock when the rod changed from compression to tension. Intake-compression-power-exhaust. Intake: tension; Compression: compression; Power: compression; Exhaust: Compression.... so it would make sense (to me anyways) that it would knock once in 4 cycles... or two revolutions.

Or exactly 1/2 the RPM.

Lifters are actuated once per 720 degrees. Assuming it's just one lifter that isn't pumping up, it would be 1/2 the RPM too.

So no, that doesn't help. :p

Ranger
01-03-07, 10:22 PM
No a bad rod bearing will knock on every revolution. Each time the journal changes direction.

mtflight
01-03-07, 10:34 PM
According to an experienced ear, while at higher RPMs the sound is drowned out by normal intake et al., it is still there. He said if it was a lifter, the sound would quiet down/dissapear at higher RPMs. :-(

mtflight
01-03-07, 10:43 PM
Shaky at idle might be a lifter. A stethescope on the cam covers might help isolate it.

I recall using a mechanic's stethoscope on the cam cover... all over trying to find the noise through the stethoscope. I didn't hear it. I only heard what sounded like continuous rolling.

Likewise I put her up on ramps and listened to the bottom end... heard nothing. Come to think of it, on the bottom all I was doing was putting the metal stethoscope rod on different spots on the oil pan--which would indicate nothing, right? Doh.

This was about 15K miles ago. The noise has always been there, but appears to be getting louder. Back then it sounded like a typewriter, now it's more like a Volkswagen Turbo at idle (but not as loud) / diesel.

What would the pinging with < 93 octane indicate? lack of compression of some sort? No carbon (used TEC, and regularly WOT). Any clue regarding lifter/rod, or totally unrelated?


After a WOT the shakyness on the stick and steering wheel appears to smoothe out.

Ranger
01-03-07, 10:50 PM
Hard to say Alex. You should not hear any pinging at idle, even on a 4.9 with 87 octane. Seeing as it clears up after WOT, maybe it is just really carboned badly and you may be hearing piston slap. But that should stay in tune with the RPM.

mtflight
01-03-07, 10:56 PM
Hard to say Alex. You should not hear any pinging at idle, even on a 4.9 with 87 octane. Seeing as it clears up after WOT, maybe it is just really carboned badly and you may be hearing piston slap. But that should stay in tune with the RPM.

The pinging is only under load, with regular or midgrade gas, like 3/4 gas pedal merging on the highway, or passing,... sounds like I'm pedalling backwards on a bicycle or a whole bunch of sparks.

No pinging if I use high octane fuel.

The shakes at idle are what clear up temporarily after a WOT, not the pinging, or the knocking. The knocking is there rain or shine.

eldorado1
01-04-07, 07:55 AM
To eliminate/possibly implicate the lower end, you can try disconnecting the injectors one at a time to see if any one cylinder is louder than the others...

:yup:

dkozloski
01-04-07, 11:39 AM
Always a good place to start when troubleshooting a possible bearing problem is to cut the oil filter cartridge apart and see what's in there. Babbit(bearing) metal will be obvious.

danbuc
01-05-07, 08:03 PM
If you don't hear it in the bottom end, and don't hear it coming from the heads than it may be timing chain related. You could pull one valve cover and see if you could feel any excess slack in the chain. I believe the N* uses a hydraulic ratcheting tensioner, which should hold pressure on the chain once it has been expanded by oil pressure. the chain should feel relatively tight and have a very minimal amount of movement in it if the tensioner's are good. If one has begun to fail, or has failed than it won't hold enough pressure against the chain causing it to slap either against the timing case o guide rails. Normally this would diminish or disappear all together at higher rpm, when the force exerted on the chain is enough to keep it from slapping. If the chain has enough slack in it, or the tensioner is bad enough though, I imagine the chain could still slap higher up. It would be as noticeable, but I'm sure you could still hear it if you listened to the timing case cover with the stethoscope. It's kinda hard to find a good place to stick in the timing cover, by try listening there too. You can also stick in underneath the intake just behind the P/S pump (I think yours is in the same place?) and listen to the other side of the timing assembly. I would go from there and see what more you find. Since it seems to be coming form the middle of the engine (kinda where the noise in mine is coming from) I would start by listening to every single part of the timing cover, and associated area you can. If it's strongest coming from that area, than it's probably a timing component (chain, tensioner, ect...) causing the noise.

mtflight
01-08-07, 01:40 PM
UPDATE:

So on Saturday I take the car in to the shop that can swap the engine for $750 labor. They listened to it and determined it's probably not lethal, and if I want to claim it on a warranty then to take it to the dealership, then they can be a second opinion or the shop of my election. He said it sounded like a piston skirt or possibly a lifter or broken spring.


ALTERNATOR BEARING, Imminent Alternator death.
So I drive back and I swear I hear a funny sound. I keep driving. I park. Then a few hours later I fire the car up and hear a lound wine/growl upon ignition that lowers pitch as the RPMs lower.

I drive then notice that it does it in neutral with the RPMs. I also noticed a slight burning smell.

So I roll the windows down and then can't roll one back up. I look at the voltage: 10.6 and dropping--not going up with acceleration.

So my diagnosis: alternator bearing crapped out.

DEALERSHIP Review.
I took it in to Crest Cadillac and tell them about the alternator and the warranty. I told them about the noise... and the service advisor who's "ASE Master Certified" according to his card, hovers over the engine an listens. He said a warranty company would do nothing about it because it's not loud at all.

They say sure--they'll do a 21 point check and drive me to work.


WHAT'S THEY FOUND AFTER DIAGNOSTICS
They call me to let me know that the I have a broken motor mount on the bottom (or possibly 2 I can't remember) and one on the top (if they're reffering to the torque strut that's BS). I also have a leak on the oil pressure sensor (I wonder how accurate that diagnosis is) and a broken tie rod.


WARRANTY WOES
The warranty does not cover suspension, or engine mounts or the oil pressure gasket so I'll fix those on my own. Warranty co. pays $75/hr max, while Caddi charges $125/hr. So I'm paying the difference. If I take it elsewhere I pay the diags fee, and only save $40 so I left it there. They're waiting for approval from the warranty folks... and so am I, carless at work.

The total out of pocket for the alternator R&R for me will be ~$240.

Without warranty, $609.

2.8 hrs of labor.

Ranger
01-08-07, 04:46 PM
What did they attribute the knocking to?

danbuc
01-08-07, 05:44 PM
Some dealers these days are a bunch of dumbasses. "Warranty won't do anything 'cause the bearing whine isn't loud enough"....are you kidding me? It's not a matter of decibels, but the fact that it's whining in the first place.

mtflight, your post saddens me and makes me remember why my car rarely sees the dealer for service. Being in the business I can tell you that 87% if not more of what they told you is a complete load of crap. Good luck with the fix....$240 doesn't sound bad at all. The quote I got from Massey in Orlando once for my alternator replacement before going through the warranty was a solid $1k....haha, I laughed and graciously drove my car away in disgust.

mtflight
01-10-07, 10:04 AM
I got my car back. Had an 07 DTS loaner for a day (car feels very agile and has a more european ride--still very comfortable though--love the LEDs inside and the HIDs outside, my eldo feels sloppy and more harsh on the bumps by contrast).

Yeah danbuc. You're right. It dissapointed me too. I ended up paying $297.

So the car still has the little knock (I was hoping it was the alternator bearing lol). By contrast I opened the hood to listen to the DTS and it sounded like a snake hissing with tic tacs rhythmically tapping... very quiet compared to mine.

Are the noises just part of normal aging? I wonder.

I am considering going to 15W 40 Rotella vs. 10W 30--to see what happens to the noises. Would my oil pump suffer/strain?

They absolutely did not address the noise, nor showed any concern. I see the Service Advisors as great barriers in my opinion. I'd rather talk to the folks who would be working on my car.

Ranger
01-10-07, 10:58 AM
I would not expect the oil pump to suffer any from 15W40, nor would I expect the noise to be a part of aging.

I know what you mean by service advisers as barriers. I make much more progress when I am able to talk to the guy who is actually doing the work.

mtflight
01-10-07, 11:22 AM
Thanks Ranger. The car has always had oil changes and good maintenance as per myself. That's why I hate the fact that it's noisy. So your 97 was not louder at 100K+ than your DHS?

Cad tech
01-10-07, 02:24 PM
4100, 4.5, 4.9 have the bearing problem not the northstar(4.6)
here is what you need
Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Clean Deposits) #99-06-01-010B - (06/17/2003)
Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Clean Deposits)
1996-1999 Cadillac DeVille, Eldorado, Seville

2001-2002 Oldsmobile Aurora

with 4.0L or 4.6L Engine (VINs C, Y, 9 -- RPOs L47, LD8, L37)

This bulletin is being revised to change model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 99-06-01-010A (Section 06 - Engine).

Condition
Some customers may comment about a tick/knock noise, sometimes described as an upper engine ticking noise or a deep low knock that sounds similar to a main bearing knock. This noise is more often heard during engine start up after a long cold soak condition and may or may not diminish as the engine reaches normal operating temperature. The knock may appear to be the loudest at the exhaust manifolds on either side or both. This noise does not change when disconnecting spark plug wires, or individually disabling the fuel injectors. As a general rule, the source of this noise cannot be determined.

Cause
The source of this noise may be carbon deposits in the engine combustion chambers.

Correction
Before considering major engine repairs, the technician should perform the following procedure to clean carbon from the engine combustion chambers.


Notice
This procedure must be strictly followed. If this procedure is not strictly adhered to, hydrostatic lock may result, causing severe engine damage.


Obtain one can of GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) P/N 1052626 (in Canada, use P/N 993026).
Start the engine and bring the engine coolant temperature above the 200-degree mark on the instrument panel gauge, or approximately 220°F (104°C) on the Tech 2 scan tool.

Important
Do not raise the engine speed above normal idle.


With the engine idling, disconnect the PCV hose from the PCV valve and slowly spray the GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) into the end of the hose.
Raise the engine speed to approximately 2000 RPM until you see a cloud of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe, then shut off the engine.
Let the vehicle sit for at least 20 minutes, preferably overnight. This allows time for the GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) to act on the carbon deposits.
Once the soak period has been completed, start the engine and proceed to remove the remainder of the GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) from the engine by increasing the engine speed to 2000 RPM until the white smoke has diminished.
If the noise is still present after performing this procedure, continue with traditional engine knock noise diagnosis as outlined in the applicable Service Manual.
Parts Information
Part Number
Description

1052626
18 ounce aerosol can of GM Top Engine Cleaner

In Canada 993026
475 gram aerosol can of GM Top Engine Cleaner


Parts are currently available from GMSPO.

Warranty Information
For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:

Labor Operation
Labor Description
Labor Time

J0527
To clean parts on vehicles over 30,000 miles (48,000 km)
0.3 hour




GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION


© Copyright General Motors Corporation. All Rights Reserved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mtflight
01-10-07, 04:43 PM
4100, 4.5, 4.9 have the bearing problem not the northstar(4.6)
here is what you need
Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Clean Deposits) #99-06-01-010B - (06/17/2003)
Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Clean Deposits)
1996-1999 Cadillac DeVille, Eldorado, Seville

2001-2002 Oldsmobile Aurora

with 4.0L or 4.6L Engine (VINs C, Y, 9 -- RPOs L47, LD8, L37)

This bulletin is being revised to change model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 99-06-01-010A (Section 06 - Engine).


Thank you Cad tech. I've done this in the past, about a year ago. I'll do it again before my next oil change (have 15% left), and will report back.

I'll also cut open the filter just in case there's bearing material in there (worst case scenario).

I wish the service advisor had asked a tech to check the noise. He's the one who made the call to just deal with the alternator because according to him the warranty would not cover it.

It's good too see another helpful tech on here! Welcome!

Ranger
01-10-07, 05:25 PM
Thanks Ranger. The car has always had oil changes and good maintenance as per myself. That's why I hate the fact that it's noisy. So your 97 was not louder at 100K+ than your DHS?
Nope.

Cad tech
01-10-07, 07:23 PM
With the newer models 2000 up on the 4.6L there is was a bulletin the replace the pistons and rings, I did so many of these it was pitiful. last year the put a hold on this bulletin (cause of the amount of each repair) and made it dissappear and ceased all payment to dealer on these repairs......Here is the deal though in 2000 i was replacing just the crank and rod bearings and it fixed it.....but when they came out with the other bulletin to replace the pistons service advisors went nuts selling the crap out of these jobs......thus lol GM saw this and put a stop to it quick....At any rate when you release the lower crankcase and rods your are to replace the bearings so to say the pistons fixed it I could not tell you....If you remember we went through this on the 3.1 replacing the #5 and 6 pistons with the teflon coated ones....GM found out about that one to lol.......
Well the point is at the beginning of this primary bulletin it also said that kits would be available for the 1996-1999 4.6L 9 and Y......but if your lower crankcase seals are leaking it may have oil starved the bearings, remember that the 4.6l is a 5 psi oil pressure engine so small leaks are harmful to it and with the oil manifold the main leak on the lower crancase this may be the solution, remember to throw an oil pump in it.

clarkz71
01-11-07, 06:55 AM
That can't be good. .:alchi:

Cad tech
01-11-07, 10:26 AM
Gravy ;)

clarkz71
01-11-07, 12:48 PM
For the tech, not the customer.

Cad tech
01-11-07, 01:54 PM
And to clarify on that a heavyline Northstar tech.....I am getting sick of fixing other shops problem childs because they dove in where they dont belong or dont know WTH lol, for me a mercedes is out there :worship: lmao

danbuc
01-11-07, 07:10 PM
And to clarify on that a heavyline Northstar tech.....I am getting sick of fixing other shops problem childs because they dove in where they dont belong or dont know WTH lol, for me a mercedes is out there :worship: lmao

Mercedes suck to work on. Gravy work is few and far between...and with them cutting warranty times left and right..it's not getting any easier to make time these days. They over complicate everything, and it's annoying. I'd give anything to make them as easy to work on as a Cadillac.

Hmm...while I'm at it...Cad tech...do you know of anyone who might sell new front control arm bushings for my car? It annoys the hell out of me that I have two new control arms complete with ball joints simply because both front bushings are worn. It would be so much easier (and cheaper) if I could just press them out. I don't wanna a crap load of money if I don't have to. ANY suggestions would be appreciated...thanks.

Cad tech
01-12-07, 09:45 AM
Try some a/m part warehouses, Napa ect, look for MOOG parts great for a/m suspension parts....
have you replaced them before because if you have tell me we may have to explore some other mystries and post new thread if so.....

danbuc
01-12-07, 06:13 PM
No, there the original bushings. they've been on the way out for sometime time now....just keep getting worse and worse as time goes on. I didn't think they were THAT bad though until a few months ago when a shift in management allowed us to bring our own cars in the shop Thursday nights. I threw it up on the lift and went at them with a pry bar. The rears had virtually no lateral or vertical movement. the front bushings though had about an 1/8 vertical deflection, and about almost a 1/2 horizontal. This would explain the strange vibration I get braking into sharp turns. It always felt like the inside wheel was shifting rearward. I even get movement from them when just kicking the tire hard. With over 100k on them, at this point I might as well just get the damn control arms. At least they'll come with both bushings and the lower ball joint so...and with my luck, I'd replace the bushings and one of the ball joints would go on me just for spite. I'll give NAPA and the P&A auto near me a call tomorrow and see if they have anything that may work. I figure why spend $400, when I can spend $40.

Cad tech
01-12-07, 07:50 PM
The thing I like though is the thought of NEW BALL JOINTS lol, I can see your reasoning totally...

danbuc
01-15-07, 05:07 PM
Yeah..the ball joints are fine which is why I wanted to avoid going the route of new control arms. I guess I could just pull the new one's off and save them for later. Never know..with my luck, I'd replace just the bushings and the ball joints would go 1k miles later. I have that kind of bad luck with cars for some reason.

Cad tech
01-15-07, 09:23 PM
you would not have any luck then without bad luck then, LOL, sorry man little joke. There has to be something from the gods that at least you are doing it right the first time...

GreenMachine
01-16-07, 06:46 PM
I've had a bit of a tick that goes away after a rev or two or the engine begins to warm up after the cars been sitting overnight. Would a WOT clean some of this carbon out or is the Top Engine Cleaner method the only way for this part of system to be cleaned out?

GreenMachine
01-16-07, 06:48 PM
I have to say I've never actually done a full WOT (people say to do it 5-10 times in a row, I've done it twice before but haven't hesitated to use full throttle merging onto the highway.)

Since the first 50-60 thousand miles are a blur (bought it used) I don't know how it was treated or what has been replaced. Went to the caddy dealer and had them look up the vin and they said all the stuff was to old to look at and they couldn't look at stuff thats been done at other dealers, I've been told they can but didn't want to bother arguing with the guy. All that came up was the headings of routine service, my guess oil changes or the like.

Cad tech
01-16-07, 08:41 PM
The tick is rather normal on start up if it does not go away within 30 seconds then I would start wondering....how many miles on it???? we use a top engine clean and a whole system treatment which is intensive ill post it if you want it.....

Ranger
01-16-07, 09:20 PM
I've had a bit of a tick that goes away after a rev or two or the engine begins to warm up after the cars been sitting overnight. Would a WOT clean some of this carbon out or is the Top Engine Cleaner method the only way for this part of system to be cleaned out?
Sure sounds like "cold carbon rap". I would think some tender loving WOT would clean her out. Used to work on my '97.

GreenMachine
01-17-07, 11:01 AM
Its got almost 96,000 and I don't think it lasts longer than 30 seconds, depends how cold it is, starting warm it doesn't happen. I almost thought it might be that timing chain thing people have been tlaking about, have to find out where it is. Kinda a "tick tick tick" "tick tick tick" She runs fine, and that is the only mechanical issue I can come up to fault it for :P

mtflight
01-17-07, 11:17 AM
The tick is rather normal on start up if it does not go away within 30 seconds then I would start wondering....how many miles on it???? we use a top engine clean and a whole system treatment which is intensive ill post it if you want it.....

I'm interested in the whole system treatment :-)


A few questions:

I'm going to do the TEC, followed with an oil change. I'd like to cut open my filter to look for bearing material--how do I cut it or where do I go to have that done??

I'm thinking of using Bbob's advise and change to 15W40 to see if the noise goes away. With the cold there have been many new squeaks probably from belts and dry accessory bearings... can they be greased (the bearings, not the belts obviously).?

Also, if 15W40 is too heavy, would half 15W40 and the other half 10W30 work (12.5W35) ? I use Rotella for the increased ZDDP.

Thanks CadTech and everyone who's been very helpful in the post. :worship:

dkozloski
01-17-07, 05:28 PM
Well equipped shops have a gadget that looks like a restaurant can opener to get a filter open. In a pinch I use a very fine tooth hacksaw blade or compound tin snips.

GreenMachine
01-17-07, 05:37 PM
Was gonna say a sawzall would be good but that would get to much shavings in the oil i'd imageing and defeat the purpose.

Cad tech
01-17-07, 05:47 PM
I'm interested in the whole system treatment :-)


A few questions:

I'm going to do the TEC, followed with an oil change. I'd like to cut open my filter to look for bearing material--how do I cut it or where do I go to have that done??

I'm thinking of using Bbob's advise and change to 15W40 to see if the noise goes away. With the cold there have been many new squeaks probably from belts and dry accessory bearings... can they be greased (the bearings, not the belts obviously).?

Also, if 15W40 is too heavy, would half 15W40 and the other half 10W30 work (12.5W35) ? I use Rotella for the increased ZDDP.

Thanks CadTech and everyone who's been very helpful in the post. :worship:

Place the vehicle gear range selector in Park.
Start the engine. Raise the engine speed to 2000 RPM.
Warm the engine coolant temperature to a minimum of 93° C (200° F).
Shut the engine off.
Remove the ignition coils and module for access when using the evacuation tool.
Remove the spark plugs and ensure that none of the pistons are at TDC.
Install the induction hose manifold, J 45076-24, (4 hoses) into the front bank of spark plug holes. Press each hose into the spark plug opening to retain the hose.

Important
Remove the original hose from the canister and install the hose provided in the J 45076 kit.


Connect the CPFI canister, J 35800, to the induction manifold.
Pour the first can of Piston and Ring Cleaner, P/N 12378549 (in Canada, P/N 88901334), included in kit P/N 12378545 (in Canada, P/N 88901333) into the canister, J 35800-A.
Pressurize the canister to 103 kPa (15 psi).

Important
If the hose pops out while inducing cleaner into the cylinder, simply reinsert the hose back into the hole.


Open the valve on the canister hose to induce the first can of Piston and Ring Cleaner into the front bank of cylinders.
Depressurize the canister (use the pressure regulator to release pressure, then close the canister valve) and remove it from the 4 hose manifold.
Move the 4 hose manifold to the rear bank of cylinders.
Pour the second can of Piston and Ring Cleaner into the canister and reconnect the canister to the manifold.
Pressurize the canister to 103 kPa (15 psi).
Open the valve on the canister hose to induce second can of Piston and Ring Cleaner into the back bank of cylinders.
When the canister is empty, depressurize it (use the pressure regulator to release the pressure, then close the canister valve) and disconnect the canister, J 5800-A, from the manifold. Remove the induction hose manifold assembly from the engine.

Important
The piston and ring cleaner solution must remain in the cylinder for a minimum of two hours. If the solution is removed in less than two hours, the cleaning process will not be 100% effective and may not correct the condition. Additionally, do not allow the cleaning solution to remain in the engine more than three hours. If the dissolved solution is left in the cylinders more than three hours, it will soak back into the rings and cause the rings to stick again.


Allow the chemical to remain in the engine cylinders a minimum of two hours.

Important
While evacuating the cleaning solution from each cylinder, manipulate the hose around the circumference of the cylinder to ensure all fluid is removed.


After the two hour soak period, connect the evacuation pump assembly, J 45076-2, to shop air and evacuate the piston and ring cleaner solution from each cylinder through the spark plug hole.
Properly dispose of used cleaning solution by putting it into waste oil.

Important
If a second application of piston and ring cleaner is necessary (see Correction above), repeat Steps 7 through 20.


Change the engine oil. The filter will be changed after the road test.
Add 6.6 L (7 qts) of oil and inspect for visible oil leaks.
Place shop rags over all plug holes and intermittently bump over engine to ensure no hydraulic lock is present.
Crank the engine continuously for 20 seconds.
Remove the rags and reinstall the spark plugs.
Reinstall the ignition coil module.
Remove the mass air flow (MAF) sensor and the air cleaner for access to the throttle body.
Use the aerosol Throttle Body Cleaner, P/N 12378550 (in Canada, P/N 88901335), included in kit P/N 12378545 (in Canada, P/N 88901333) and manually clean the throttle body and the idle air control (IAC).
Remove the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) valve.
Install EGR Cleaner adapter J 45076-45 and throttle body cleaner adapter. For 1996-1999 models use the J 45076-46 throttle body adapter. For 2000-2003 models use the J 45076-55 throttle body adapter. The J 45076-55 is held in place by the air intake duct.
Remove the position crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve. Inspect for proper operation and clean or replace as necessary.
Connect vehicle exhaust pipes to shop ventilation system.
Pour induction cleaner, P/N 12378552 (in Canada, P/N 88901336), included in kit P/N 12378545 (in Canada, P/N 88901333 ) into the CPFI canister, J 35800-A, and connect the canister to the EGR Cleaner Adapter and Throttle Body Cleaner Adapter, J 46076-46.
Pressurize the canister to 138 kPa (20 psi).
Start the engine. Connect the Tech 2® and raise the engine RPM to 1100 RPM with Tech 2® at F3- RPM Output.
Open the valve on the canister to induce the induction cleaner through the MAF and the EGR Adapter. Regulate the air pressure to obtain a good fan pattern of the solution into the throttle body, but not so much that the fluid overflows out of the throttle body.
When the canister has been emptied (use the pressure regulator to release pressure then close the canister valve), exit the Tech 2® F-3 function to reduce the engine RPM to normal idle speed.
Turn the ignition to Off.
Remove the EGR Cleaner Adapter and the Throttle Body Cleaner Adapter, J 45076-45 and J 45076-46.
Reinstall the EGR valve, MAF Sensor and air cleaner.
Use the Tech 2® to clear any DTCs set during the cleaning procedure. Disconnect Tech 2®.

Notice
Start the vehicle and gradually increase the RPM to 2000 RPM in park. Engine damage could result from any fluid left on top of the piston if RPM is increased too quickly.


Maintain the RPM at 2000 for 1-3 minutes. Then promptly road test the vehicle for a minimum of 20 minutes in the third gear range. Include several short, wide open throttle bursts.
After the road test, allow the engine to idle for one minute with the A/C off and the gear selector in the PARK position.
Connect the Tech 2® and inspect and clear any codes from the road test. An EGR pintle code may set from debris binding the valve. Clean the EGR valve, if necessary.
Turn the ignition to Off. Disconnect the Tech 2®.
Change the engine oil and filter.
Verify the oil level.
Reset the Engine Oil Life monitor.



Parts Information
Part Number
Description
Qty

12378545

(U.S.)

88901333

(Canada)
Kit, Engine Cleaner
1

12378549 (U.S.)

88901334 (Canada)
Piston and Ring Cleaner (for second application)
1 (if req'd)

3522442
Gasket, EGR Mounting
1

6487532
Valve, PCV
1 as req'd

89017413
Piston Ring Kit 2000 to 2003 Model Years
8 as req'd


Parts are currently available from GMSPO.


Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Clean Deposits) #99-06-01-010B - (06/17/2003)
Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Clean Deposits)
1996-1999 Cadillac DeVille, Eldorado, Seville

2001-2002 Oldsmobile Aurora

with 4.0L or 4.6L Engine (VINs C, Y, 9 -- RPOs L47, LD8, L37)

This bulletin is being revised to change model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 99-06-01-010A (Section 06 - Engine).

Condition
Some customers may comment about a tick/knock noise, sometimes described as an upper engine ticking noise or a deep low knock that sounds similar to a main bearing knock. This noise is more often heard during engine start up after a long cold soak condition and may or may not diminish as the engine reaches normal operating temperature. The knock may appear to be the loudest at the exhaust manifolds on either side or both. This noise does not change when disconnecting spark plug wires, or individually disabling the fuel injectors. As a general rule, the source of this noise cannot be determined.

Cause
The source of this noise may be carbon deposits in the engine combustion chambers.

Correction
Before considering major engine repairs, the technician should perform the following procedure to clean carbon from the engine combustion chambers.


Notice
This procedure must be strictly followed. If this procedure is not strictly adhered to, hydrostatic lock may result, causing severe engine damage.


Obtain one can of GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) P/N 1052626 (in Canada, use P/N 993026).
Start the engine and bring the engine coolant temperature above the 200-degree mark on the instrument panel gauge, or approximately 220°F (104°C) on the Tech 2 scan tool.

Important
Do not raise the engine speed above normal idle.


With the engine idling, disconnect the PCV hose from the PCV valve and slowly spray the GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) into the end of the hose.
Raise the engine speed to approximately 2000 RPM until you see a cloud of white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe, then shut off the engine.
Let the vehicle sit for at least 20 minutes, preferably overnight. This allows time for the GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) to act on the carbon deposits.
Once the soak period has been completed, start the engine and proceed to remove the remainder of the GM Top Engine Cleaner (TEC) from the engine by increasing the engine speed to 2000 RPM until the white smoke has diminished.
If the noise is still present after performing this procedure, continue with traditional engine knock noise diagnosis as outlined in the applicable Service Manual.
Parts Information
Part Number
Description

1052626
18 ounce aerosol can of GM Top Engine Cleaner

In Canada 993026
475 gram aerosol can of GM Top Engine Cleaner


Parts are currently available from GMSPO.

Warranty Information
For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:

Labor Operation
Labor Description
Labor Time

J0527
To clean parts on vehicles over 30,000 miles (48,000 km)
0.3 hour



Now ftrhe first on with out tool you will need to purge cyclinders manualy, cranking will be fine....make sure to change the oil on the second one

mtflight
01-21-07, 04:42 PM
UPDATE

Will be doing the TEC clean asap (it's been too cold and my car is outdoors), followed by an oil change.

I took the beauty cover off, while I waited for a neighbor to lend me a 1/2" breaker bar -- I was going to test to see if the noise was in the drive belt.

While I waited for the neighbor, who never showed up, I took the metal rod off my stethoscope, and started listening.

To my demise I found the noise in the engine. It is on the side of the engine facing the firewall, toward the driver's side.

I then put the rod back on the stethoscope and I can't hear it loudly on the cam cover, but I can on the head. That does not seem good, to me at least. Could that still be as innocent as a lifter? It's not a deep knock when I hear it with the stethoscope, but more like a loud tap. Could it still be a lifter? :-/

I can hear it when I rev the engine but is harder to find with the stethoscope.

I will be doing the TEC cleaning, and listening for the noise. After the TEC I'll be using 15W40 Rotella (I'll save the oil filter and open it up to see if there's anything in there).

Any comments are welcome.

acklac7
01-25-07, 02:27 AM
Figured I would give an update. I can't remember the last time I heard anything other than a purrrr out of my N*. It has been at least 2 months w/o the prevalent upper knock that I previously noted. Engine runs like a champ, especially in cold, dry weather! I do alot of short trips, and every once in a while she will start to stumble.....You know what that means...Pedal to the metal! no more stumble!

I might add that I have had some serious intermittent issues w/the fuel injector shut off ( p0119 ). But that code has been an issue for some time now, it will set (and shut off a cylinder) for 7 days straight...Then go dormant for months. Same thing with the p076 code, however that irritating SOB hasn't reared it's head for a year, maybe more. All in all I think both of these codes are a reasult of PCM issues...Hopefully im right.

acklac7
01-25-07, 02:30 AM
UPDATE



I then put the rod back on the stethoscope and I can't hear it loudly on the cam cover, but I can on the head.



Any comments are welcome.


Sounds like it might be carbon build up in the "squish" area?...Anyone else remeber him talking about this?

eldorado1
01-25-07, 09:06 AM
I then put the rod back on the stethoscope and I can't hear it loudly on the cam cover, but I can on the head.

valve cover?

Remember it's floating on a rubber gasket, and all the bolts have rubber grommets - so I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty quiet.

mtflight
01-25-07, 09:13 AM
valve cover?

Remember it's floating on a rubber gasket, and all the bolts have rubber grommets - so I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty quiet.


Thank you for that. Ranger clued me in on that one. The sound is likely a lifter or valve issue. Right bank.

I'm at 4% Oli Life Monitor.

Will the TEC aerosol carbon cleaning through the intake clean the valves too or just combustion chamber?

I'm hoping it is debris, but likely it's a spring or something along those lines. I exaggerate on how loud it is, but you can definitely hear it if you look for it.

(I still plan to crack open that filter and look for materials).

I was trying to turn off injectors when i was in there, but could not figure out how to unplug them. I plan to do that too... (I think the noise should be the same since the valves keep working).

eldorado1
01-25-07, 10:11 AM
The TEC won't really clean anything but the combustion chamber. Maybe the exhaust valve. The intake valve should be clean, gasoline is a good solvent.

The injector connectors are held in by a wire spring clip. You have to depress it evenly so both sides unlatch. Then you just wiggle/pull the connector off. If they haven't come off in a while, they'll stick. It is a pain - but if you have a FSM, you can look for the "cylinder balance test". It does the same thing, but from the instrument panel. On top of that, you'll have RPM drop readings, so you'll know if any one cylinder is not putting out compared to the rest.

acklac7
01-25-07, 12:29 PM
It is a pain - but if you have a FSM, you can look for the "cylinder balance test". It does the same thing, but from the instrument panel. On top of that, you'll have RPM drop readings, so you'll know if any one cylinder is not putting out compared to the rest.

I was going to reccomend the same thing, but for some reason I think the cylinder balance test was only availible with ODB-I.

Ranger
01-25-07, 04:36 PM
After talking to mtflight, I really think the cam covers need to come off for a good look see.

Cad tech
01-26-07, 12:26 PM
you can do a cyclinder balance with TECH2......the post for the engine clean also cleans the valves.....If the ticking is in the heads 1 or 2 problems arise, carbon ticking or lifter tick....most common is carbon, do the treatment, it will clean combustion and valves...if lifter check for oil manifold leaking..if they are leaking externally they are leaking internally thus dropping oil pressure to the top end of engine....oil pressure test at head.....

acklac7
03-26-07, 12:19 AM
Mtflight..what was the final verdict?

Just an update on my situation: Engine hasn't knocked in months, Im guessing it was a was a sticky lifter..that stopped sticking. Still purrs like a kitty @ 95,000 miles with multiple daily WOT runs (when I feel like having fun :D)....took her up to 6500 at least 7 times today...Ran like a champ ;)

mtflight
03-26-07, 02:31 PM
No final verdict. The noise is slightly more noticeable when I park uphill, and turn it on (as if the lifter was dry and then becomes lubed). It's probably a clogged passageway or something along those lines. The independent shop told me to take it to the dealer, the dealer said the warranty would do nothing so why bother. It runs fine, just makes that noise at times. I've tried additives and 15w-40 and it makes no difference.

acklac7
03-29-07, 12:16 AM
the dealer said the warranty would do nothing so why bother. It runs fine, just makes that noise at times. .

So does the noise go completely dormant? (on occasion)...And why did the dealership feel that the repair (whatever it may be) wouldn't be coverd under warranty?

mtflight
07-14-07, 12:17 PM
The noise is noticeable at startup for under a minute and ocasionally at other times. Car runs great. Warranty expires in a few hundred miles. Complete visual inspection revealed the car is in great shape (this coming from Firestone mechanics who in my experience will find any excuse to repair anything).

So... wish me luck when the warranty expires onward :-) I'm now running 5W40 Rotella Synthetic (I figured it may help clean out any blockages in oil passageways, and help keep the engine interior clean--plus it has a lot of ZDDP). No additives this oil change.

AJxtcman
07-14-07, 01:40 PM
Cam and lifters?
I have seen a lot of them.
33054

33055

mtflight
07-14-07, 08:30 PM
probably, that's where the noise is coming from. What's the worst case scenario? bad fuel mileage? How much to R&R them?

Ranger
07-14-07, 08:44 PM
Those look like they were cooked or the oil was never changed. In either case it does not look normal for todays engines and oils.

AJxtcman
07-15-07, 07:41 AM
Those look like they were cooked or the oil was never changed. In either case it does not look normal for todays engines and oils.

They came out of a 70K engine. The heads are on another car and the block is in my car. The heads got a set of cams and lifters before they went on the other cars. I see a lot of bad cams.

AJxtcman
07-15-07, 01:34 PM
33109

33110

33111

33112

33113

33114

33115

33116

33117

33118

Counselor
07-16-07, 09:01 PM
I had a knock on cold starts. Quite after warmed up. Then the car started to run ragged and at one time quite running. It did start but the problem was the EGR valve. Code was emmision problem and showed several false codes. After replacing it no more knock.

mtflight
07-16-07, 09:26 PM
thanks AJxtcman. I wish I could pop the cam cover off and start looking for clues but I'm afraid without supervision I could do more harm than good. I wouldn't know what things are supposed to look like. I wish I was in Wi or you were in TX.

To Counserlor: this is not the bad-gas kind of knock. It's more like the tapping noise a diesel makes--I can only hear it at idle sometimes. Other times I can't hear it depending on what angle the car is in (uphill or downhill etc). I hear it for a few seconds loud and clear, at startup. no EGR codes.

AJxtcman
09-02-07, 11:30 AM
I must have posted this on another thread. It should be add here also.


http://216.182.211.32/TechLink/images/issues/nov06/TLnov06e.html#story14