: Havoline?



STS127
12-25-06, 07:22 PM
I've got another oil question. What is all of your opinions on Havoline. I saw a case on sale and was thinking about trying it.

Dadillac
12-25-06, 07:54 PM
I buy my oil at WalMart in the 5qt jugs. I buy whatever is cheapest. Havoline is usually about $0.20 cheaper than the others and I usually get that. Oil is oil. Just buy whatever floats your boat and don't worry about it. Havoline, Castrol, Valvoline, etc. It doesn't matter.

Don

Ranger
12-25-06, 08:19 PM
:yeah: :thumbsup:

codewize
12-25-06, 10:01 PM
Ok granted this question is getting out of hand but oil is NOT oil by any means.

Havoline is a great oil. I swear by Valvoline for several proven reasons. However I have recently switched my 93Brougham 350 to Amsoil and the 2001 DTS N* will be switched on the next oil change. Again for proven reasons. Things I've seen proof of.

C66 Racing
12-25-06, 10:22 PM
I've got another oil question. What is all of your opinions on Havoline. I saw a case on sale and was thinking about trying it.

AMSOIL included Havoline in this fairly recent motor oil comparision so you can see how it stacks up to your other preferred brands:
Comparative Motor Oil Test Nov 05 (http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/TestResults/Comparativetest11-05.htm)
:cheers:

peteski
12-25-06, 10:41 PM
I wish that every car owner in the world would just swich to Amsoil and get it over with. Then we would have no more questions and "oil battles" anymore. And we would all be on the same page. Or better yet, it would be great if we could somehow stop all the other petroleum companies from producing inferior lubricants. That way Amsoil could become the sole world supplier of superb quality lubricants.

Why fight it? Use the best there is - synthetic oils by Amsoil! Proof is everywhere.

Happy New Year! :D
Peteski

Ranger
12-25-06, 10:43 PM
Ok granted this question is getting out of hand but oil is NOT oil by any means.

Havoline is a great oil. I swear by Valvoline for several proven reasons. However I have recently switched Brougham to Amsoil and the DTS will be switched the next oil change. Again for proven reasons. Things I've seen proof of.
Are you saying that we are going to suffer an oil related failure by using a "lesser" oil, or the engine won't last as long?

codewize
12-25-06, 11:48 PM
No I'm not saying that at all. I've used Valvoline since I was old enough to know what a car was. Again for reasons that were show to me then in test results. I've also run every one of my Cadillacs over 200k with no engine issues at all.

I had a drag car, 67 Camaro ragtop, seriously built 350. I ran Valvoline 20-50 in that and changed the oil about every 5k. I drove the car as my daily driver for 2 years and raced it every Sunday. The engine had about 100k on it when I sold it. The guy wanted to reuse the engine but insisted that it needed to be rebuilt after all that abuse. He later called me up to ask me what oil I'd been using because the internals showed no signs of where and were clean enough to eat off of.

Having said that, long term I will say you're view of my statement can be correct. It's been shown several times that Amsoil yields FAR less metallic wear than any other oil on the market.

Will you're engine break at 50k if you don't use it? No of course not BUT if you know there's a way to reduce wear, why not use it.



Are you saying that we are going to suffer an oil related failure by using a "lesser" oil, or the engine won't last as long?

Ranger
12-26-06, 12:02 AM
Well, I think you are basically agreeing with me. Don't get me wrong. I am not (nor Do I think) saying that Havolin is bad. Maybe a better way to put it is, in the end, oil is oil. Look at it this way. We both run our Northstars 200,000 miles with no oil related failures. You used whatever you consider to be the best oil and I used whatever you considered to be the worst oil. The oils did there job. They kept the moving parts seperated and lubed. You just can't ask any more from an oil. Now which oil was "better"? And if one was, by what ever standard, what did it accomplish that the lesser oil did not?

dkozloski
12-26-06, 01:07 PM
I bought a lawn mower from Sears in 1974 and ran it until 2005 when I finally took it to the dump. The engine was running fine and didn't smoke but the rest was worn out. In that time I NEVER changed the oil and added oil once. 31 years of service on the original oil and the drain plug was never removed. That oil was some pretty tough stuff.

codewize
12-26-06, 02:13 PM
Wow that's pretty impressive. I wonder what it was. Is that a Briggs engine or Kohler?

devilleconcours100
12-26-06, 02:30 PM
Well, I have got to 184k miles on the 94 caddy, and it has used mostly shell oil, but occasionally Pennzoil, Mobil, Valvoline, and at times Exxon. No real difference, just so long as its 10W-30. My 86 MB uses Shell 15W-40, no difference between it or Valvoline, Mobil Delvac, Chevron Delo, etc. Basically, as long as it meets the same specs, and is the same weight (for conventional oil anyway) its pretty much compatable.
Thanks, Dave.

dkozloski
12-26-06, 02:49 PM
Wow that's pretty impressive. I wonder what it was. Is that a Briggs engine or Kohler?
Briggs and Stratton

Dadillac
12-26-06, 10:44 PM
Well, I think you are basically agreeing with me. Don't get me wrong. I am not (nor Don I think) saying that Havolin is bad. Maybe a better way to put it is, in the end, oil is oil. Look at it this way. We both run our Northstars 200,000 miles with no oil related failures. You used whatever you consider to be the best oil and I used whatever you considered to be the worst oil. The oils did there job. They kept the moving parts seperated and lubed. You just can't ask any more from an oil. Now which oil was "better"? And if one was, by what ever standard, what did it accomplish that the lesser oil did not?

In no way am I insinuating that Havoline is a bad oil. Havoline 5w30 is in my N* right now. Oil manufacturers have to abide by government regulations on minimum standards. That is what the sunburst chart is all about. So "all" oils meet the governments minimum standard. If one oil was heads above the rest, ALL new cars would be filled with it. This issue on which oil is best, and how often to change it, has been going on for decades. And it will go on for many more decades no matter what info comes out. As long as you are using a brand name oil, you cannot go wrong, period. And I will bet that my engine that gets plain old dyno oil, and changed when the OLM tells me to, will last just as long as the engine with high dollar synthetic, that is still on the ancient 3k plan. I will not argue this with anyone, as it is a never ending debate, and I have had my fill of it in the past.

Don

Tonkin
12-27-06, 01:27 AM
On all my cars I have owned since 1958 I always changed the oil and filter every 3000 miles or three months, which ever came first. Always used the least expensive natural oil I could find. Buicks , Austin Healeys, Porsche , and Cadillacs. Never had an oil failure. The only problem with the above is if your engine overheats due to cooling failure you need to replace the oil right away, Or if you run your engine at full power on a race track for 100 plus miles you would need a racing oil. (High temp kills oil fast). For most of us 90% of engine wear happens within the first 5 seconds of starting the engine. (synthetics reduce this) But even with this wear with regular oil at 100,000 miles you can hardly measure any wear on the engine parts and at 200,000 the wear is still within tolerance of manufacture. I do love the smell of Valvoline Racing oil in the morning though!

clarkz71
12-27-06, 08:17 AM
OK, I'll put in my usual oil post. I use Mobil 1 10/30 in my Eldo, and in the girlfriends T-Bird I use Supertech 10/30. I also think Havoline is a good choice. If you see it on sale, grab a case. The FSM and the owners manual both state you can use ANY oil that is API starburst certified. Havoline 10/30 is.

dp102288
12-27-06, 03:37 PM
I usually try to buy Castrol 10W-30 for the Eldo. If its too pricey or I can't get it, I usually go with the cheapest there. Castrol preference cause its the first kind I ever saw my dad use.

EcSTSatic
12-30-06, 08:52 PM
Speaking of Havoline, I went to Advance Auto to buy a case of 10W-30 and they were out. I asked the guy behind the counter and he said it was being discontinued! He offereda couple reasons; they were being bought out, they were changing their formula.
What's up with Havoline, I couldn't find out anything on their website?!

http://www.havoline.com/images/products/product_shots/large/motoroil.jpg

VinnyT
12-30-06, 09:41 PM
I personally use Pennzoil Platinum fully synthetic. My auto part store usually has it on sale for $2.48/qt. :)

dp102288
12-30-06, 09:58 PM
Speaking of Havoline, I went to Advance Auto to buy a case of 10W-30 and they were out. I asked the guy behind the counter and he said it was being discontinued! He offereda couple reasons; they were being bought out, they were changing their formula.
What's up with Havoline, I couldn't find out anything on their website?!

:hmm: I couldn't find anything wither regarding a close of the company. Maybe the store didn't have and the guy you talked to was just relaying a bad rumor.

STS127
12-30-06, 11:01 PM
Speaking of Havoline, I went to Advance Auto to buy a case of 10W-30 and they were out. I asked the guy behind the counter and he said it was being discontinued! He offereda couple reasons; they were being bought out, they were changing their formula.
What's up with Havoline, I couldn't find out anything on their website?!

http://www.havoline.com/images/products/product_shots/large/motoroil.jpg

Yeah! I just went to Auto Zone yesterday and the same exact thing happend to me but all of their oil was gone except for a few quarts here and ther. The place were they stock them you could see all the way to the back of the store through them, not a single bottle for 10 or 5W 30. I thought to myself this must be good stuff if they are all out, everybody must be buying it, I never thought about a new formula or selling the company. I might take a drive over to the Advance near where I live and the other Auto zone to see if it is at all retailers. However yesterday I was in Wal-Mart and saw a case of 10W-30 so you can check there.

dp102288
12-31-06, 12:53 PM
Yeah! I just went to Auto Zone yesterday and the same exact thing happend to me but all of their oil was gone except for a few quarts here and ther. The place were they stock them you could see all the way to the back of the store through them, not a single bottle for 10 or 5W 30. I thought to myself this must be good stuff if they are all out, everybody must be buying it, I never thought about a new formula or selling the company. I might take a drive over to the Advance near where I live and the other Auto zone to see if it is at all retailers. However yesterday I was in Wal-Mart and saw a case of 10W-30 so you can check there.

Maybe Havoline is just cutting supply to make people think its really good stuff! :D

But a bigger store would probably have if the auto stores don't have. I know the walmart by me always has tons of all brands of oil in stock.

hardley-etc
01-03-07, 01:08 PM
If I recall correctly (IIRC), the "man" said the northstar was R&D'd with Havoline oil, which is owned by Texaco.

It does seem hard to find in the quart jugs (yea I have seen it in the store that has all the other stuff imported from China). Mostly see it in the 5 gallon jugs now (10w/30).

No need for synthetic oil in passenger cars that run below the 300 deg F range.

EcSTSatic
01-03-07, 01:32 PM
I tried to contact Advance Auto from their website to find out why they weren't carrying Havoline anymore. Still waiting for a response.

STS127
01-03-07, 05:32 PM
I tried to contact Advance Auto from their website to find out why they weren't carrying Havoline anymore. Still waiting for a response.

I'd be curiuos to find out what the situation is. I'm not too sure Advance will tell you the absolute truth but they may.

MUGSANDLUKE
01-03-07, 06:05 PM
All of this seems to be a waste of time and effort. I haven't woned a single vehicle, and there have been many, that has had an oil related problem and all of those dozens of vehicles have gone more than 200,000 miles. My only point here, change your oil often, use name brands instead of Pablo's Discount Home Grown Oil, and your vehicle will liev a long happy life. End of story, this long, drawn out,over disucuused, time absorbing, beaten to death, story.

Ranger
01-03-07, 07:24 PM
:yeah: :thumbsup:

ewill3rd
01-03-07, 09:26 PM
I didn't read this whole thread....

These days most oils that meet the current API requirements for new cars are all formulated pretty well. Back in the 80's it really made a difference what brand oil you used and I could tell what brand oil people ran in their cars by removing a valve cover. Oils have changed so many times since then its not even funny.

Not to brag but I am an ASE Master Technician, L1 Engine Performance certified, GM Master Technician Certified in 9 categories, which makes me GM World Class Technician Certified, and I have taken over 300 GM training courses. (and there are almost no more classes I can take)

I use Valvoline motor oil in my vehicles.
I used to buy Durablend, but I can't seem to find it on the shelves anymore.
For now I have switched to the 5-30 in the white bottles.
I service my cars regularly and I can't remember doing a mechanical repair on an engine in one of my own vehicles since my '76 Buick spun a bearing. That was.... let's see now... about 18 years ago?

Take it for what it's worth.
;)

EcSTSatic
01-04-07, 09:03 AM
All of this seems to be a waste of time and effort. I haven't woned a single vehicle, and there have been many, that has had an oil related problem and all of those dozens of vehicles have gone more than 200,000 miles. My only point here, change your oil often, use name brands instead of Pablo's Discount Home Grown Oil, and your vehicle will liev a long happy life. End of story, this long, drawn out,over disucuused, time absorbing, beaten to death, story.

I probably dragged this thread out longer than it normally would have gone. I was just curious why a major parts store would stop carrying a particular brand of popular oil. It just happened to be the brand I usually buy because of price. I knew it met the same standards as the rest.

clarkz71
01-04-07, 02:21 PM
Just got back from Walmart, they had the Havoline 1 qt bottles, cases of 1 qt bottles and what looked like a new design 5 qt jug. 5/30 and 10/30.

pimpjuice01
01-05-07, 12:51 PM
Hey,
I recently bought high mileage oil for my car, is there anything against those types of oils? I think it was pennzoil

210,000 KM

clarkz71
01-05-07, 01:07 PM
Not if you have high miles, that's what they are for.

JohnnyO
01-05-07, 01:57 PM
Havoline is one of the best dino oils there is. This is not based on marketing or feel-good or what daddy used in the tractor 40 years ago, but on the used oil analysis posted at www.bobistheoilguy.com. Chevron is essentially the same oil and often costs a little bit less, Pennzoil shows up very well also. Oil is not oil, some are better than others. That said, changing it regularly is more important than what you use.

WildLife
01-05-07, 07:40 PM
In the early 80's my cousin was in the Navy.
He was involved with a study (by the navy) of
motor oils.
The list was topped by Havolin Supreme (Avail at Texaco stations)
These were all dino oils.
My favorite at the time was Pennzoil. It was last on the List.
I switched to Castrol, it was 3rd.
I now use syn castrol.
Yes dorothy, some oils last longer than others.

MonzaRacer
01-06-07, 01:10 AM
Ok as for the "shortage" of oil dont worry what you have seen is the fact that they are changing some packaging but for the most part the distributors to most of the auto parts lines are renegotiating distribution contracts. But for the most part there is no problem but at the bottom of this post is a link to Havoline and if you read the history of it from its beginning to date its very interesting.
BT as for Amsoil or Havoline or Mobil 1 being the best oil. I for one will NOT purchase anything from Amsoil, that company can dry up and disapear for all I care.
I had a custome who bought a new car and with manufacturers endorsement he simply broke the engine in on the car company brand oil(note I will not disclose the brand of oil nor car) he short changed it at 500 miles then ran it through a 2k then 3 more 2500 oil changes then bought a case of Amsoil and put it in. Now this car was Pristine and never pampered nor beat on. He started out with Amsoil and dronve it thru the first oil change (2500) then changed it again then Amsoil dealer AND company told him to simply leave it in and do oil analysis (which I do agree on) and when it came back as properly "worn" he would change it. Well at 62k it developed a bad tick, and was taken to dealer and it still had warranty (as he had bought exteneded warranty)to75k and they proceeded to dissassemble it and found the cam lifters worn to the point of having holes in the bottoms (oh and its was not a GM product) so upon further inspection they found all of the rod bearings completely worn out and inside of the oil pump looked like it had sand ran thrugh it but engine was clean. So he calls Amsoil and told them of his findings from dealer and they told him he should have changed it every 2k instead of doing analysis (which he had their letter reccomending it on their letterhead) ans told him to suck it up and buy a new car.
Well his other car his wife drove was still going on the dealership oil and had never had Amsoil and had a consecutive number right next to his car.
The dealer told him this was going to be warantied but not to use Amsoil in it,,, the car now has 200k+ with plain old Valvoline in the crankcase. The dealer told them that the only time they had ever seen this was when certain brands of oil were used(never degrading his oils choice). So he figured that Amsoil might atleast explain how it was his super duper oil in his car wasnt working and got a 2 yr royal run around with no help.this isnt the first engine I have seen trashed by the socalled perfect oil Amsoil.
Now I have $20k plus race engines running palin old Shell Rotella T 30 weight for extreem high RPMS and even on NOS and never have had an oil related failure. I use Kendal GT1 5W40 Full synthetic in my prexnt new engine in my 78 C10(Hyd roller 355) and even have some lower speed engines that drag usingit with great results.
For the most part if the oil has an ASTM/SAE rating its good enough for pretty much any engine it has a rating for. I can also tell you that WalMArt Super Tech is supplied by Quaker State which is a SOPUS (Shell Oil Products US) owned name and befroe SOPUS had it Pensoils did and before that Ashland had it and beforethat Cen-Pe-Co did. The big Q is simply a name on a bottle.
another thing to remember is that for themost part ANY oil out there, except for Brand specific (re synthetics) compnenets , cna be made from base refined oil stock and the only difference is mainly the additive package ,kind of like gasoline, the base product is simply about 70 octane white gas(re unleaded with no additives) then the company who buys it adds or has their additive package added to it. Here in souther Indiana Marathon has the majority of underground piping infrastructure and a friend of mine drives for local Marathoin Distributor and sees all of the brands there and the place they pick up has the additives ready to put in the base product ( he has even had to put a hose in the tank when they had valving problems to add the additives/identifiers).
Basicly from a machinist view point if you change oil regularly and use a brand name oil you will go long miles, period. I have friend who buys the cheapest he can find and has never had an oil related failure yet and most of his cars have over 150 k on them.
Use what you want and change regularly. good Luck
Lee
http://www.havoline.com/about/history.html

GreenMachine
01-07-07, 08:42 AM
I'll look into using Havoline in future changes, I think family dollar of all places has it for a buck a quart.


I wish that every car owner in the world would just swich to Amsoil and get it over with. Then we would have no more questions and "oil battles" anymore. And we would all be on the same page. Or better yet, it would be great if we could somehow stop all the other petroleum companies from producing inferior lubricants. That way Amsoil could become the sole world supplier of superb quality lubricants.

Why fight it? Use the best there is - synthetic oils by Amsoil! Proof is everywhere.

Happy New Year!
Peteski

Amsoil, its so very expensive compared to everything else, cost vs performance I just don't see it yet.

clarkz71
01-07-07, 08:43 AM
I'll look into using this stuff in future changes, I think family dollar of all places has it for a buck a quart.
Yeah, either family dollar or dollar general.

STS127
01-07-07, 11:54 AM
Didn't even know those places carried oil.

Submariner409
01-07-07, 01:50 PM
:yup: Joining the New Oil War, the STS runs Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30, the truck (towing duty) runs Pz Truck/SUV 5W-30 blend, and my boat engine, a tricked '70 Olds 455, runs Pz LongLife 15W-40. The boat engine is pushing 2,000 hours with a short stick, and is as clean and tight today as when I built it in '98. Oil changes, 7.5 qt., occur at 100 hours on the clock. (Calculate 2,000 hours at around 2,450 RPM average (car, 75 mph?) and you come up with around 145,000+ miles.) All 3 engines are absolutely clean inside. Instead of snake oil, use a good quality modern oil, change it and the filter according to the manual, and may your engine live long and prosper.

peteski
01-07-07, 03:10 PM
I'll look into using Havoline in future changes, I think family dollar of all places has it for a buck a quart.



Amsoil, its so very expensive compared to everything else, cost vs performance I just don't see it yet.

I was being a bit sarcastic. I haven't yet used synthetic oils in any of my vehicles. And I'm not planning on it either. I compare the "oil wars" to religiuous battles. My "God" is better than your "God"... I wish we could all just get along.

Yeah, yeah I know: Synthetic is better - I understand. If I owned a race car, I would use synthetic. My daily driver will do just fine on a "dino" oil.

Peteski

MUGSANDLUKE
01-07-07, 04:29 PM
Boy! Some people seem to have much too much time on their hands.

codewize
01-07-07, 06:32 PM
You know I was just in WalMart looking at Havoline and realized that the regular dino 10W-30 is grade 4 oil. I didn't know that.

GreenMachine
01-07-07, 07:34 PM
Didn't even know those places carried oil.
neither did I until I stumbled into their small auto "stuff" aisle, was looking for those Armor All wipes for leather....like the Meguiars wipes better.

STS127
01-07-07, 09:04 PM
Yeah i like the Meguiars wipes for leather too. They smell a little stronger but are way more moist and soften up the leather better.

C66 Racing
01-07-07, 09:47 PM
You know I was just in WalMart looking at Havoline and realized that the regular dino 10W-30 is grade 4 oil. I didn't know that.

What do you mean by a grade 4 oil? A dino oil can't be anything more than a Group III synthetic and the Havoline oils I've seen aren't labeled as synthetic, which means they can't be anything more than a Group II oil.

EcSTSatic
01-07-07, 10:02 PM
Are you referring to the ILSAC GF-4 (http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf) rating on Havoline?

codewize
01-07-07, 10:51 PM
Yes, that's what I saw. What does that mean? Apparently not group 4


Are you referring to the ILSAC GF-4 (http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf) rating on Havoline?

C66 Racing
01-08-07, 08:49 PM
Yes, that's what I saw. What does that mean? Apparently not group 4

ISLAC GF-4 is a recent oil specification. It was developed in close conjunction with the API SM specification. These standards, while raising the minimum requirements for automotive oils, also put very restrictive standards in place to help improve fuel economy and protect emissions systems. This is a pretty good writeup on the GF-4 standard by an oil company (hopefully the mods will allow this link to help educate the forum members on the relatively new GF-4 spec):
http://www.northamericanlubricants.com/news/gf4specs.htm
:cheers:

EcSTSatic
01-09-07, 10:10 AM
Thanks C66. You said it better than I could have. I'm glad the brand I've used for the past 20 years or so is keeping up with technology. :thumbsup:

clarkz71
01-09-07, 10:16 AM
C66, good link for the GF-4 info.

GreenMachine
01-09-07, 10:51 AM
thanks for the article, what stood out to me, which pertains to the Northstar engine is the following lines:

GF-4 products will have Sulfur and Phosphorus maximums that are lower than GF-3/SL oils but that are higher at 0.08 maximum (0.06 minimum) for Phosphorus than the automakers originally wanted. Additionally, the automakers also gave some on Sulfur agreeing to accept 0.07 for 10WXX grades but staying with the requested 0.05 for 0WXX and 5WXX grades.

and this one:


If the Oil Companies have their way, they will retain the right to manufacture oil that meets many of the GF-4 requirements yet deviates in the areas of Sulfur and Phosphorus content. The oil companies want to set SM oil requirements at 0.10 maximum for Phosphorus versus the GF-4 maximum of 0.08 and Sulfur maximums of 0.1% versus the GF-4 maximums of 0.07% for 10WXX oils and 0.05% for 0WXX and 5WXX oils.

We just had a thread on here about Flat Tappet pre-2000 Northstars and the reasoning for 10w-30 and the Roller Cam Followers on the post-2000 Northstars reasoning behind 5w-30 (or more like the 2000+ Northstars preparing for the future of oil).

Might just be a coincidence, I don't know, but its interesting that the sulfer/phosphorus liking pre-2000s are speced for 10w-30 and the post 2000's which really couldn't car less about sulfer/phosphorus, are speced for 5w-30.

Just kinda gets those gears in ones head turning.

Since that article is from 2004 has there been any finalizations as to what is the GF-4 rating?

codewize
01-09-07, 11:12 AM
To confusing. I'll stick with the plan of switching to Amsoil. I shouldn't have to think this much to lubricate my car

C66 Racing
01-09-07, 10:04 PM
Since that article is from 2004 has there been any finalizations as to what is the GF-4 rating?

I too like that article because it clearly explains the EPA and automotive industry reasons behind the more restrictive standards. The standards were approved as written in that ariticle as far as I have been able to determine. Here is a link with what I believe is a complete listing of the final standards (again would appreciate it if the mods left this link for educational purposes):
http://www.ilma.org/resources/ilsac_finalstd011404.pdf

As you can see the phosphorus limit was set at 0.08% (or 800 ppm) which does limit the amount of ZDDP anti-wear additives of the GF-4/SM oils. How the oil companies have responded to this has varied. For the original poster, I'm not sure how Havoline has modified its oil other than limiting the amount of ZDDP to comply with the new standard.

For those such as "codewize" who are considering AMSOIL, it appears based on used oil analysis that AMSOIL has increased the amount of other anti-wear additives such as Molybdenum and added more esters (a Group V basestock) to compensate for the loss of the ZDDP. They are also running very high amounts of Calcium, a detergent/dispersant. The result is an oil that hasn't lost any performance as indicated in the wear results on this very recent 5,000 oil sample on one of my customer's Corvette:
Corvette C5 Used Oil Analysis Report Ė AMSOIL SAE Synthetic 10w30 (http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/TestResults/C5%20AMSOIL%2010w30%20UOA.htm)
:cheers:

MUGSANDLUKE
01-12-07, 07:45 PM
Does anyone else find it hard to believe there are six pages on this topic? Buy a good brand oil, change it often with a new filter and that's it. You'll never have an oil related problem. If I had to think this much about oil I'd buy a horse and worry about what kind of hay I was feeding him. It would be a lot easier and would not require 6 pages of blah blah blah blah blah ......................................

Ranger
01-12-07, 08:04 PM
Does anyone else find it hard to believe there are six pages on this topic? Buy a good brand oil, change it often with a new filter and that's it. You'll never have an oil related problem. If I had to think this much about oil I'd buy a horse and worry about what kind of hay I was feeding him. It would be a lot easier and would not require 6 pages of blah blah blah blah blah ......................................
Not at all. Just ask what is the best oil or gas, and stand back, but I agree with you. I've been saying that til I am blue in the face.

codewize
01-12-07, 09:57 PM
Fine that's it. I'm filling the crankcase with extra virgin olive oil. That's it. I'm going to tape a coffee filter to the filter housing and let it roll.

There are you guys happy now LOL The problem is we want to know. We want to know whats best for our engines but we don't want opinions we want hard facts. You can't blame people for that. I see the validity of your statements but also understand why we ask.

Ranger
01-12-07, 10:35 PM
The point is that any one is "best" for your engine. It will run just as long no matter what oil you use. It's all marketing, to get your dollar.

Flynn
01-12-07, 10:49 PM
Undoubtably different oils have different performance parameters at extremes of conditions. Other than racing, who is ever going to be operating a car under such conditions? I figure regular Pennzoil, Valvoline, Castrol, etc. will cover all conditions perfectly well. So why pay twice the price for a synthetic? If I lived in Arctic conditions year round having to cold-start at 20below every day, I'd pay for synthetic, otherwise....

codewize
01-12-07, 11:08 PM
Us.

Other than racing, who is ever going to be operating a car under such conditions?


I live in upstate NY and it's common to have a week straight of sub zero weather.

If I lived in Arctic conditions year round having to cold-start at 20below every day, I'd pay for synthetic, otherwise....

Ranger
01-12-07, 11:28 PM
Thats the point, Code. Conventional oils are designed and tested to flow at -35C/-31F (5W) and -30C/-22F (10W).

GreenMachine
01-13-07, 12:03 AM
Havoline has been "marked up" at the family dollar to two dollars and then reduced to 1.89 :P Advance only has 20w-50 and something else left, no 10w-30 or 5w-30 left but the Advance Auto brand of oil says its bottled by havoline and it is 1.65. Seems all the oil around here has jumped in price, adding tax to the cases brings everything up (sales tax is .0875 in Erie County, NY)

codewize
01-13-07, 12:13 AM
I'm not seeing this supply problem. Wal-Mart and all of my local parts places have oogles of Havoline products. Auto Zone, Parts America, PepBoys. They have tons.

Hey man I'm just giving you guys a hard time at this point. It's all good.

Thats the point, Code. Conventional oils are designed and tested to flow at -35C/-31F (5W) and -30C/-22F (10W).

MonzaRacer
01-13-07, 12:17 AM
Ok guys I will chime back in here again. I for one have seen several Amsoil lubed engines and if I want to look at bearings that trashed I can demo a car with no coolant (non- northstar) and look better.
As a technician and a an engine builder (and I am seriously thinking of using either a N* or Aurora as both aresame basic design just depends on which I find used first in a hot rod project ) I see this discussion show up everywhere but I have used several types of oil in my life. I personally use Kendal Full Synthetic in my truck and my big block has Shell Rotella T in it.
But basicly when the oil police bump on antiwear component they replace it with one or two others and have to follow specific anti wear test and these include older tests/specs not just new tests/specs or you would be warned to not use them in older engines.
I uise full synthetic because of specific things I see happening in engines and I see what they will do and I know they can be used for exteneded mileage oilchanges(I am a tech and my truck is last to get worked on).
BUT I also know my bib block haas a lot of hard miles on it and well over 100k on Shell too.
BUT if you read your owners manual it will tell you to use a rated oil and change regularly. Seems like you guy just want to put your mangnifying glass a little too hard on what you do.
If most people would simply change on a proper schedule, service it with a maintenance plan and the car will go a long time.
The taxi cab company I set up the maintenace program for them and when the sold thier last 87 (the last of the cars that I was certain used my plan) Caprice a friend of mine bought it and it had 388k on the car and all it ever had got was a camshaft (lifter collapsed, so it got a cam/lifters) and a valve job,,, other wise it got 2 trany rebuilds(bad seals as they just work hardened never had any new clutched installed) a set of axles and C-clip eliminators. But the short block was still as GM built it in 87. I was impressed and saw the mant. records and the engine when he brought it down to soup it up. It naow has 010 pistons , still stock crank never turned and a new set of SR Torqer heads ,and headers and a LT4 HOT roller and soon to be converted over to a TPI and Megasquirt.
AND i guarantee this car got beat harder than your cars and it ran Shell 10W30 all its life.Now it runs Kendal Synthetic 5w40 and was broke in on Shell Rotella.
BUT from the records the engine started life with 2 % leakdown new and it was at 5 % when we tore it down, and was honed to .010 over to clean up some light scuffing. I sold the heads after a valve job and he stepped up to better heads.
I'll say it again use a good grade of oil, change it regularly and service other thing properly and you will be fine.
Dont sweat the small stuff so much.
Lee

GreenMachine
01-13-07, 12:39 AM
^don't look at me, was trying to find something cheap for under 2 bucks, I'm a Kendall fan. Local hardware store chains have the synthetic blend GT1 for around 2 bucks, thinking of buying that since they have rebates on it:
http://www.kendallgt1promos.com/index.html

Wish I checked that site when I had the local shop change my oil, would have received a free thermos, sharp looking too.

STS127
01-13-07, 09:07 AM
^^ I recently bought a case of Kendall GT-1 Hi-Performance synthetic blend for 23 bucks. I went to Auto Zone and they were out of Havoline and this was a good price so I bought it. Too bad the promo for a case is only $4.80.

codewize
01-13-07, 12:20 PM
MonzaRacer; I have to say that you're the only one I've ever heard speak so adamantly about Amsoil in a negative way. Everyone I talk to think it's the greatest thing in the world, every test I've seen backs that up, but yet you say it's like running your engine with sand in it.

I'm not sure I understand why there's such a difference in stories here.

GreenMachine
01-13-07, 12:37 PM
its more like pouring liquid gold threw your engine, very expensive seems to be its drawback.

AlBundy
01-13-07, 03:39 PM
MonzaRacer; I have to say that you're the only one I've ever heard speak so adamantly about Amsoil in a negative way. Everyone I talk to think it's the greatest thing in the world, every test I've seen backs that up, but yet you say it's like running your engine with sand in it.

I'm not sure I understand why there's such a difference in stories here.

Its like trying to figure out if the product is bad or is it the extended drain interval?:suspect:

codewize
01-13-07, 04:45 PM
Well there's a couple things here. The one oil they claim is good for 25k, the XL line is rated at 7500 miles. I would never leave anything in there for 25k. That's just wrong and I don't care what they say.

So is it that people are not changing the oil for 25k and burning stuff up or is the oil bad. And if you feel it's the oil then which product line are you referring too? Additionally, are people not checking there oil for 25k because they think they don't need to?

I want facts here. I want to know why you say what you do and which Amsoil product was in the engines you've seen fail and for how long. How much of what you've seen is the owners fault. I have a feeling it's about 100%

MUGSANDLUKE
01-14-07, 03:13 PM
OK, I give up! Keep talking! TTFN

clarkz71
01-14-07, 04:02 PM
The point is that any one is "best" for your engine. It will run just as long no matter what oil you use. It's all marketing, to get your dollar.

No, not "any one". Any one that's "API starburst certified". There are plenty of oils that aren't. I've seen plain old 30 weight non-detergent oil in some stores.

clarkz71
01-14-07, 04:12 PM
So why pay twice the price for a synthetic?




1) Because I want to
2) Because I can afford to.
3) Because as a professional automotive technician I have seen proof that over many miles there is less wear.

AlBundy
01-14-07, 05:25 PM
Clark I see you hold no punches.:D

clarkz71
01-14-07, 05:28 PM
:yup:, I've been using Mobil 1 for years and have seen many examples of it's benifits. And as a tech, I'm going to see more examples then the average car owner.

Flynn
01-14-07, 07:06 PM
1) Because I want to
2) Because I can afford to.
3) Because as a professional automotive technician I have seen proof that over many miles there is less wear.

No doubt that's true. If I were going to keep a car forever I would use synthetics.

But this is my point:

I have owned many cars, and have always changed the oil & filter every 3000-4000 miles, and have never had a single problem due to lubricant failure. I used Mobil 1 for awhile, Castrol Syntec for awhile, but still changed them after 3000 miles out of pure habit, even though I knew they were good for much more.

So for me, I can live with the negligable wear disadvantage "over many miles", because by then I'll be driving something newer.

Ranger
01-14-07, 10:22 PM
No, not "any one". Any one that's "API starburst certified". There are plenty of oils that aren't. I've seen plain old 30 weight non-detergent oil in some stores.
True. I thought that was understood.

clarkz71
01-15-07, 05:49 AM
No doubt that's true. If I were going to keep a car forever I would use synthetics.
So for me, I can live with the negligable wear disadvantage "over many miles", because by then I'll be driving something newer.

I can agree with that.

Cad tech
01-15-07, 02:21 PM
Figure this is a pretty hot topic....I personally like to put oil in the engine lol....

I must agree with Clark, Mobile 1 synthetic seems the best for me(my car, as for the wifes caddy hehe)...BUT THAT IS MY OPINION......I also feel if you keep up on oil changes it will be adequete with most API cert oil.....

EcSTSatic
01-15-07, 03:32 PM
So what kind of schedule do you synthetic users follow? Do you ignore the oil life monitor?

Cad tech
01-15-07, 03:46 PM
nope actually go just by oil life moniter

JohnnyO
01-15-07, 03:59 PM
So what kind of schedule do you synthetic users follow? Do you ignore the oil life monitor?

On my dad's car I go by the OLM, I change it at some point when it gets down under 10%. This means about 10 to 12,000 miles. Mom's car does not get a lot of miles on it, so I change it once a year right after they leave for Florida, pull it into the garage and program Storage Mode. It was at 18% this year. With Mobil 1 I've gotten good UOA's on both. Lately I've been using Pennzoil Platinum because it's a bit cheaper and the UOA's seem just as good.

clarkz71
01-15-07, 04:14 PM
So what kind of schedule do you synthetic users follow? Do you ignore the oil life monitor?


I still go by the OLM.

STS127
01-15-07, 06:03 PM
The oil life monitor seems to be pretty accurate in my opinion. Recently I've driven the car a little harder and it has decreased a few percentiles more than an average driving style.

Flynn
01-15-07, 07:04 PM
If one goes by the OLM for oil change frequency, one would be crazy NOT to use synthetics.

MUGSANDLUKE
01-15-07, 07:18 PM
Just needed to interject a real laugh here.
Now you've really won! I'm putting Havoline in my Car, Truck, Boat, Compressor, Lawn Mower, and Snow Blower and everywhere else I can. I'm wiping into my hair and I'm cooking with it right now to fry up some real old fish. Smells like my old '61 Buick after a successful Saturday night date at age 19. I'm cleaning my wimdows with it and I'm giving it away free to my neighbors so all will have only the best. I'm changing all these oils every other week whether they need it or not and adding a new filter every three days. (Can't wait for the discussion on which filter to use.) As a matter of fact I've started drinking it to insure bowel regularity and I'm cleaning my ears with it as well. Is that it? Do I have it all right now? Am I missing anything? Boy I hope not. Hate to think I left anything out. Hah, this is great! You guys are killin' me with 9 pages on which oil to use. I'll bet if we try real hard we can get it all the way up to 12 pages. Keep goin' oil dudes! I'm having a great time just reading all this stuff. And I thought I didn't have a life. For the love of oil! That's got to be all there is to say about oil right? Harvey J. Cadillac is rolling over in his grave! (don't ask who that is, I made him up). This is better entertainment than a good day with a picnic lunch, a dozen beers, and a warfside seat at a boat launch ramp watching the human race degrade itself by example. I can't be the only one that sees this as a little excessive. Please, someone else chime in here and let me know that there is still some sanity out there. Wait, I have to go refill my glass. I'm out of 5w-30. Be back later to catch up on the juicy tidbits I may have missed. TTFN!

Ranger
01-15-07, 07:32 PM
I'm with you Mugs. See post #55. Oil is oil. Pick one, use it and change it when you should.

clarkz71
01-15-07, 07:36 PM
(Can't wait for the discussion on which filter to use.)

Why AC Delco PF61 of course !!

codewize
01-15-07, 07:45 PM
LOL no way, it's WIX all the way for me.


Why AC Delco PF61 of course !!

MonzaRacer
01-15-07, 10:35 PM
OK so I will interject some much needed information so as to let everyone use informed decission over spin the "oil' bottle.
So i am goin to quote Lee Culbertson of Royal Purple from the Dec 06 CHP magazine in these next parts.
"Lubrication can be broke down into 3 states. Hydrodynamic lubrication describes the ideal situation,where a continuos film of fluid(oil) seperates 2 sliding surfaces. The viscosity of the oil supports the entire load between moving parts and prevents them from touching.
On the other hand, boundry lubrication is the last line of defense before metal to metal contact occurs, ?when oil is squeezed out from between moving parts in high load areas (ie:main journals and main bearings),all thats left to prevent excessive wear are antiwear additives. Mixed film lubrication is a a little of both, where some oil has been squeezed out but a marginal coat of oil is still present. Oil is present in each state somewhere in the engine, which is what makes formulating oils so complex.
'Unfortunately, you cant have hydrodynamic lubrication under all conditions, which makesthe additive package of an oil that much more important.' Lee explained"
what this means is that all oil companies have to one meat a certain spec or rating and it has to actually hold up under testing orthat oil company would get a VERY bad rap for failure.
NOW to lay down a little more proper information on Synthetic oils:
According to Lee," a popular misconception is that synthetic oil is magicly created in a beaker. The truth is, all oil comes in a natural state, and all oil starts as crude.
The difference between them is just a matter of how that crude is processed. synthetic oil is highly refined crude with molecules that have been realigned by man (ie a designer lubricant so to speak). this makes them significantly different from what came from the ground.
As a result synthetics have a uniform molecular size and lower traction properties, there by reducing friction.
Crude has a lot of impurities, but they are removed during refinning when formulating a synthetic oil.
how ever its not saying that they are better than mineral based oils.
these days additives are more importent than whether base oils are mineral or synthetic.
Now let me give you some food for thought, you like distilled water in your coolant so the coolant isnt fighting the chemicals and contaminants in it and better protecting your cooling system rather than putting in chlorinated, hard, floridated water in your radiator.
So with that think of this synthetic is like putting highly pureified, distilled water in your cooling system but in a much more important system.
Also synthetics have higher heat tollerances, less non refined out "trash" , and can use additive packages better while the base molecules will be more stabill and break down less easily under heavy use.
And another thing that was stated but i dont remember who wrote it, consider this if you go by the oil life reminder/guage/light which is guided by an algorithum using your driving habits, and you only change your oil every 15k to 20 k lets say that wouls only be 5 oil changes (with 20 k per life cycle) per 100k on your car.
So here goes;
synthetic oil change with light
$5 x 8 = $40 oil
$5 x 1 = $5 filter
$45 x 5 = $225 x 2 (for 200k)= $450
conventional oil at every 3k
$1.75x 8= $14 oil
$5 x 1= $5 filter
$19 x 33 changes = $462 for first 100k and $ 924 for 200k
So if we use the figures as stated its almost double to change with conventional oils on a severe use regime.
BUT if we do use a superior synthetic oils and follow the OLM then you can spend less AND if you or the better half just happen to not have cash or time to get it changed you can go another 500 miles till you change it with no fear.
REMEBER the oil life montior is just computing your driving habits but has no continuos memory of how hard its been ran before,,, it get cleared every trip it doesnt even use engine mileage to figure out when it needs changed it simply goes by hours ,engine speed/temp/load. it doesnt even know that 3 oil changes ago you had a water pump failure and ran it home in limp home mode. And while it may have had you change it short then (or you did as a good owner should) it has knowledge of how hot it got or how much damage could or was done at the time of that repair change.
I can stand by certain types of oil that i like and I really stand by the use of synthetic oil.
I also have another tip that i like to relate, as a technician I have used many different types of penetrants for rusty applications, but after some problems with rusty suspension aprts i actually figured out that after heating the part that has stuck threads I use synthetic oils (I drain the dregs from my oil change bottles) in a dedicated squirt can and get'em hot then soak it down and as it cools it will wick the oil in to the hot expanded threads and break it free and lube it up good AND it stays there longer.
i have also seen several high HP/RPM engines loose oil preasure and come back no worse for the wear but the same failure has happened and it trashes an engine build.
I have a friend who i switched to synthetics and he drags his car every weekend (355, all forged, solid lifter cam etc) and because it used a soild cam he never got the pecking lifters and ran 4 complete back to back rounds and rove home with no damage to bearings (much to my surprize) and only slight scuffing on one piston. Reason being was he had some wiring problems (which knocked out his electric guages) and shorted the oil light ON (yes he left it in play) so he checked it with mechanical guage ,it had preasure before race at home, figured it would be fine as it had so many times before. He snapped the drive shaft to the oil pump and never figured out it had no oil PSI. BUT all we did was replace the scuffed piston(as the set comes with 10) slid in the old rings another new oil pump and drive shaft(as I wasnt sure if it was pump failure or debris) and it still runs and he drive this car every day to work.
He ran 20W50 Valvoline till I swapped him over to 15W50 Mobile 1 synth. AND upon do so he gained a .10 th of a second with no other changes (he uses PF35L Delco filters).
And he told me the engine uses less fuel as he usually went through 6 gallons in a race night it no only uses 4.8. And he uses same gas at same pump at same station and had always used same amount. He ask if they had done anything to the pumps or nozzles and was told no.
Anyway run what you like BUT make informed choices and remeber the old oil of yesterday is gone so this is why yopu now see synthetic blends coming to the fore front.
good luck to all.

GreenMachine
01-16-07, 10:27 AM
here's some other info on the OLM:
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/news_issues/news/simplified_maintenance_qa_040104.html
On a the pre-2000 Northstars which are dino oil based you will never have it tell you to go over 7500 miles, and themanual says don't go over 6 months. Post 2000 engines are factory filled with mobil 1 and will say 12,000 miles or 12 months, but never over those figures and the manual states never let it go over a year.

You'll almost never have your OLM go the distance unless you use it to drive to church on a sunday 20 miles each week on the highway. Very light engine load.

On the otherhand my car has gone just over 1500 miles since the last oil change, I've made more short trips, short stops, and the weather has been cold so the car doesn't even get up to full temp on a lot of those short trips. It currently says 51 percent oil life left. Which would put me that 3-4 thousand mile interval if the trend continues.

This time I think I'm going to do a UOA just to see whats going on in there, cheap car guy entertainment :P

clarkz71
01-16-07, 10:36 AM
here's some other info on the OLM:
On (http://On) a the pre-2000 Northstars which are dino oil based you will never have it tell you to go over 7500 miles, and themanual says don't go over 6 months. Post 2000 engines are factory filled with mobil 1


The 2003 XLR was the 1st to have Mobil 1 as factory fill, also the VVT & supercharged engines.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/ui/p_spacesides.gif

Do I have to use special oil?
The GM Oil Life System calibrates the vehicle's needs based on use of the standard factory-fill mineral-based automotive engine oil that displays the "Starburst" API® Certification Mark. Make sure to read the vehicle's Owner's Manual to select oil with the viscosity and grade that are correct for your engine. Synthetic oils are not required except for the models that came with synthetic oil from the factory.

GreenMachine
01-16-07, 10:52 AM
I stand corrected, I could have sworn that the oil fill caps on the psto 2000 caddys I've seen say mobil 1 on them....in any event that means you could run dino oil the length of the OLM and be ok and still not need synthetic :) Then again it would seem the only engine at caddy which isn't VVT is the engine in the Esclade and the Deville. I think the Esclades corvette derived engine is Mobil filled, don't know.

C66 Racing
01-16-07, 11:32 PM
NOW to lay down a little more proper information on Synthetic oils:
According to Lee," a popular misconception is that synthetic oil is magicly created in a beaker. The truth is, all oil comes in a natural state, and all oil starts as crude.
The difference between them is just a matter of how that crude is processed. synthetic oil is highly refined crude with molecules that have been realigned by man (ie a designer lubricant so to speak). this makes them significantly different from what came from the ground.


That is a very misleading statement. His statement refers to Group III basestock, which can be legally called synthetic. Group III basestock consists of highly hydroprocessed mineral (Dino) oil as he mentioned. Royal Purple may consist of a Group III synthetic - their website is not clear on what basestock they use. However, the original synthetics, Group IV, PAO basestock, and Group V, ester basestock, are not made the same way. AMSOIL uses a predominantly Group IV basestock, but recent formulations look like they have a higher level of ester additives to counteract the more stringent API SM/ILSAC GF-4 standards. Redline uses a Group V basestock. The vast majority of "synthetics" on the shelf at your local autoparts store use Group III basestock.

Here is a more detailed description of how Group IV and V basestocks are made:

Group IV:
Polymerized alpha olefin: Polyalphaolefin, Olefin Polymers, Olefin Oligomers- a synthetic hydrocarbon

PAOs are commonly used to designate olefin oligomers and olefin polymers. The term PAO was first used by Gulf Oil Company (later acquired by Chevron), but it has now become an accepted generic term for hydrocarbons manufactured by the catalytic oligomerization of linear alpha olefins having six or more carbon atoms. PAOs are gaining rapid acceptance as high-performance lubricants and functional fluids because they exhibit certain inherent and highly desirable characteristics.

Group V:
Esters: Diesters (dibasic acid esters)

Diesters are prepared by reacting a dibasic acid with an alcohol containing one reactive hydroxyl group. Note that the hydrolytic stability of diesters is not as good as mineral oils. Hydrolytic stability refers to how the lubricant reacts in the presence of water. Hydrolytic degradation can lead to acidic products, which, in turn, promote corrosion. Plus, hydrolysis can also materially change the chemical properties of the base fluid, making it unsuitable for the intended use. Systems that can contract high levels of moisture include systems that operate at low temperatures or that cycle between high and low temperatures and also certain fuels such as racing engines running alcohol, which has a cooling effect in the engine. Racing engines using ester based lubricants should have the lubricant changed regularly.

Diesters have good lubricating properties, good thermal and shear stability, high viscosity indexes and have exceptional solvency and detergency. Diesters are superior fluids for aircraft engines and compressors, although mainly older jet aircraft. Diesters are also used as a base oil or part of a base oil for automotive engine oils and in some low temperature greases (note: modern military and commercial jet aircraft almost universally use lubricants formulated with polyol esters as the base fluid now).

Diesters are incompatible with some sealing materials and can cause more seal swelling than mineral oils. The scientific reason for this is as follows: diesters have a low molecular weight that results in low viscosities. This combined with their high polarities makes them quite aggressive to elastomeric seals. This can be reduced by using better elastomers or by carefully blending with PAOs to nullify their swelling effects, since PAO base stocks are nonpolar.

Esters: Polyolesters (Neopentyl Poly Esters)

Polyol esters are formed by reacting an alcohol with two or more reactive hydroxyl groups. These fluids are used primarily for aircraft engines, high temperature gas turbines, hydraulic fluids and heat exchange fluids. Polyol esters are much more expensive than diesters. Lubricating greases with polyol esters as the base fluid are particularly suited to high temperature applications. Polyol esters have the same advantages/disadvantages as diesters. They are, however, much more stable and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. In general, a polyol ester is thought to be 40-50 deg. C. more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much lower coefficients of friction than those of PAO and mineral oil. By adding 5-10% of an ester to a PAO or mineral oil the oils coefficient of friction can be reduced markedly.
:cheers:

MonzaRacer
01-17-07, 12:05 AM
Ok after postingthis I got an email from a buddy who was talking different types of synthetics too but he made a very good point,,,they all have some/most or all of thier componenets drived from Crude or produced byproducts of crude ,with some other components added.
As for Amsoil after seeing a few engines that had that in it Ill run dish water.
I have seen cleaner engines in junkyards.
If user was doing something other than what Amsoil recommends then so be it but I havent yet seen any reason to spend that kind of money(if the prices I was quoted were true) Besides I can get my Kendal for a LOT less and it so far has performed superbly in all my personal and professional tests.
I also like Mobil 1. and I have also looked at trying some of the Shell synthetic too as I have some customers asking if it can be used instead of the striaght Rotella T.
Anyway like I said before, find one you like for what ever reason , change it regularly and enjoy the ride.
OH and as for the OLM ya ought to read the programing , it has nothing in it for reading mileage unless its getting a factor from another module but there is nothing in the programing (we looked at this as a friend is trying to reverse engineeer an OLM for a show/drag car ).
kindof funny GM is still using the OLM program from the early 80s OLM's, and they ,from what we saw in the program, it goes by temp,rpm,hours,load(map), and no miles input, but Ill have to ask which year the unit was from but I know it was from a Caddy.
Lee:thepan:

JohnnyO
01-17-07, 10:30 AM
If I recall correctly, a big part of the OLM algorithm is the amount of fuel burned. Therefore, someone who does a lot highway driving that is easy on oil and uses less gas per mile will show a longer OCI than a lot of in-town driving that is harder on oil and uses more gas per mile.
I'm at work and don't have an owner's manual in front of me, but I think that regardless of the miles driven it says to change the oil at least once a year even if the OLM doesn't light up.
Another thing to remember is that a N* holds 50% more oil than most other engines, so even on dino oil you can go longer than you're used to.
I've said before that we ran Mobil 1 in my dad's car for over 12,000 miles, OLM was at about 5% I think, I sent a sample to Blackstone and the UOA was fine.

STS127
01-17-07, 01:56 PM
What company came up with the OLM? When where they first started to be used. Just curious to see if these were some of the first or if they have been around and these ones aren't bad like a lot of new technologies in cars.

MUGSANDLUKE
01-17-07, 02:29 PM
And the saga continues. I'm right! You guys are headed for a 12 page thread. Keep going guys! You can do it!

EcSTSatic
01-17-07, 04:31 PM
With your help! What's wrong with discussing the OLM? Should we talk about the weather?

STS127
01-17-07, 04:40 PM
^^ Yeah its about 15 degrees here in Massachusetts today.

clarkz71
01-17-07, 04:41 PM
And the saga continues. I'm right! You guys are headed for a 12 page thread. Keep going guys! You can do it!


Just for you MUGS.;) 12 it is,

STS127
01-17-07, 04:42 PM
Lets try 14.:yup:

GreenMachine
01-17-07, 06:17 PM
I only see 3 with my post settings...anyway

the OLM is NOT the same program in every vehicle, and it has been changed since the 80's. That website I linked to shows it all in black and white what it is. The setting for it are changed for each engine, from what I gather the guru went into detail for the validation process for it. Being that its been adjusted and developeed since the 80's I would trust it more than something that was designed yesterday :P

Its pretty good and considering our brethren across the pond have been changing oil far past 3000 miles for years and year I doubt we have anything to worry about.

clarkz71
01-17-07, 06:55 PM
Did we ever decide what the best oil filter was ??:hmm:

STS127
01-17-07, 08:00 PM
I don't think so. I've heard Wix, AC Delco mentioned but there are others. Purolator, STP, Bosch, Motorcraft, Pro-Tech, Super Tech, Mobil One, K&N, Mopar, Fram, Valvoline Max Life by Purolator, Pennzoil. Are there any others I'm forgetting. What is the best? Oh yeah I think Amsoil makes them too.

Flynn
01-17-07, 08:56 PM
I would guess the cost of the filter is indicative of its quality. The real question is probably what level of protection do you really need? I believe we-who-toss-the-old-filter at every 3000-mile oil change can get by just using the cheapos.
I'm sure someone will point out that I'm wrong.

I look forward to you experts among us sharing your opinions.

codewize
01-17-07, 10:24 PM
First of all anyone who changes the oil every 3000 miles is doing more damage than good AND wasting a lot of money.

Virgin oil has far less protective properties than oil that's been broken in. The person that goes 7 - 10 k and keeps topping off will have far less wear over time than someone who changes the oil every 3k.

Now I have a question for the lubrication geniuses here. What happens if I mix 5W-30 with 10W-30. What's the result and how will it perform?

As far as Filters I think everyone agrees on Wix, AC Delco or MANN. Purolator is also supposed to be very good. I guess that's all you really need. I swear by Wix and always will. It's another one of those, I was shown with physical evidence years ago and that's enough for me.

Ranger
01-17-07, 10:29 PM
Here is what our old Guru had to say about the OLM.

"One thing I can touch on and clear up.....the GM oil life monitor operation and my statement that ZDP (or ZDDP as you tend to call it here...most of the API literature just sticks to ZDP so I tend to use that) depletion is the basis for oil deterioration.

My spelling is poor but ZDP stands for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate which , as it sounds, is an anti-wear compound comprised of zinc and phosphorus.

ZDP is dispersed in the oil so as to be at a potential wear site if a surface asperity happens to break thru the oil film thickness causing the dreaded metal-to-metal contact. A molecule of ZDP must be present at that moment to prevent microwelding at the contact site which will cause material transfer, scuffing, scoring, wear and catostrophic failure. The concentration of ZDP in the oil will determine if there is ZDP present to work it's magic. The greater the concentration...the more likely a molecule of ZDP will be there...and vice versa.

By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions. Any given engine has a certain number of high potential wear areas where metal-to-metal contact could occur due to reduced film thickness and/or surface asperities....areas such as rubbing element cam followers, distributor gears, rocker arm pivots, push rod tips, etc...... The more of these areas the more ZDP depletion. The more often these features come in contact the greater the ZDP depletion. That is why, generally speaking, ZDP concentration in the oil, for any given engine, will decrease at a fairly linear rate when plotted versus cummulative engine revolutions. The more times it turns the more contact the more chance for wear the greater the depletion. This is as much of a fact as I could quote ever and is really not speculation or anything. It is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt in many studies. That is why it is ONE of the basis for determining oil life remaining and why it is THE basic premis of the GM oil life algorithm. It is only ONE of the things that determines oil life...but it is the one thing that can be tied to engine operation in a linear fashion and estimated very accurately by accumulating engine revolutions via a counter.

The GM engine oil life monitor counts engine revolutions and accumulates the number for the basis of the oil life calculation. It then adds deterioration factors for operating temperature, start up temperature, soak times, ambient, coolant temperature, etc... There are a LOT of factors that "adjust" or affect the slope of the deterioration but the fundamental deterioration is traced back to the ZDP depletion that is inescapable with engine revolutions. The specific rate of ZDP depletion is readily measurable for any given engine so that is the fundamental item that is first calibrated for the oil life algorithm to tailor it specifically to that engine.

You would obviously like to get the oil out of the engine before the ZDP concentration gets so low that it is ineffective at being at the right place at the right time and preventing engine wear so that becomes the long term limit on oil life for that application.

The other things that determine oil life such a acid build up, oxidation, petane insuluables such as silicon from dust/dirt, carbon or soot build up from the EGR in blowby, water contamination, fuel contamination, etc.... are all modeled by the multipliers or deterioration factors that "adjust" the immediate slope of the line defined by the engine revolution counter as those items can be modeled in other ways and accounted for in the immediate slope of the ZDP depletion line.

The algorithm was developed over the course of many years by several lubrication experts at GM Fuels and Lubes, spearheaded by Doctor Shirley Schwartz who holds the patents (with GM) for the algorithm and the oil life montitor. I had the luck of working directly with Dr. Schwartz when the idea of the oil life monitor first progressed from the theoretical/lab stage to real world testing/development/validation. There were fleets of cars operated under all conditions that deteriorate the oil life for any and every reason and , thru oil sampling and detailed analysis of the oil condition, the algorithm was developed, fine tuned and validated to be the most accurate way invented yet to recommend an oil change interval by. As just one example, I have seen cars driven side-by-side on trips, one towing a trailer and one not, for instance, to prove the effectiveness of the oil life monitor in deteriorating the oil at a faster rate just because of the higher load, higher average RPM, higher temps, etc...and it works flawlessly.

The oil life monitor is so effective because: it is customized for that specific vehicle/engine, it takes everything into account that deteriorates the oil, it is ALWAYS working so as to take into account THAT INDIVIDUALS driving schedule, and it tailors the oil change to that schedule and predicts, on an ongoing basis, the oil life remaining so that that specific individual can plan an oil change accordingly. No other system can do this that effectively.

One thing is that I know personally from years of testing and thousands of oil analysis that the oil life algorithm works. There is simply no argument to the contrary. If you don't believe me, fine, but, trust me, it works. It is accurate because it has been calibrated for each specific engine it is installed on and there is considerable testing and validation of the oil life monitor on that specific application. NOt something that oil companies or Amsoil do. They generalize....the oil life monitor is very specific for that application.

Oil condition sensors in some BMW and Mercedes products are useful, also. They have their limitations, though, as they can be blind to some contaminates and can, themselves, be contaminated by certain markers or constituents of certain engine oils. Oil condition sensors can only react to the specific oil at that moment and they add complexity, cost and another potential item to fail. One other beauty of the GM oil life monitor is that it is all software and does not add any mechanical complexity, mass, wiring or potential failure mechanism.

There is considerable safety factor in the GM oil life monitor. Typically, I would say, there is a 2:1 safety factor in the slope of the ZDP depletion curve....in other words, zero percent oil life per the ZDP depletion is not zero ZDP but twice the concentration of ZDP considered critical for THAT engine to operate under all conditions reliably with no wear. This is always a subject of discussion as to just how low do you want the ZDP to get before the oil is "worn out" if this is the deciding factor for oil life. We would tend to be on the conservative side. If the oil life is counting down on a slope that would recommend a 10K change interval then there is probably 20K oil life before the ZDP is catostrophically depleted....not that you would want to go there...but reason why many people are successful in running those change intervals.

Please...NOT ALL ENGINES ARE THE SAME. The example above is an excellent practical justification of why you would want to add EOS and change the 15W40 Delvac in the muscle car at 3000 miles max and yet can run the Northstar to 12500 easily on conventional oil. You must treat each engine and situation differently and what applies to one does not retroactively apply to others. This is where Amsoil falls short in my book by proposing long change intervals in most everything if you use their oil. It just doesn't work that way. You can run the Amsoil to 12500 with no concerns whatsoever in the late model Northstar because even the oil life monitor tells you that for conventional oil off the shelf. Would I do that to the 502 in my 66 Chevelle...NO WAY. Amsoil says I can though. Wrong.


There are entire SAE papers written on the GM oil life monitor and one could write a book on it so it is hard to touch on all aspects of it in a single post. Hopefully we hit the high spots. Realize that a GREAT deal of time, work and energy went into developing the oil life monitor and it has received acclaim from engineering organizations, petroleum organizations, environmental groups all across the board. It is not some widget invented in a week and tacked onto the car."

C66 Racing
01-17-07, 11:06 PM
... By nature, ZDP is sacrifical. As ZDP is "used up" at a wear site to prevent micorwelding the concentration of ZDP decreases.... So...if you measure the ZDP concentration in engine oil in a running engine it will decrease at linear rate based on engine revolutions...

Well... to help the thread generate to 12+ pages, and based on used oil analysis reports of my own customers (not 3rd party info), while conceptually I agree with the "guru", I'm going to have to practically disagree.

First consider these four used oil analysis reports, all on a modified LS1 Corvette motor, and all over 3000 miles:
Used Oil Analysis Comparison: German Castrol 0w30 vs AMSOIL Series 2000 0w30 (http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/TestResults/C5%20Used%20Oil%20Analysis.htm)

Though two of these were tests of AMSOIL and two of German Castrol, both high quality Group IV synthetic oils, all four samples showed zinc levels (which is the actual anti-wear particle in ZDP) over 800 ppm, with the AMSOILs zinc levels being about 100-200 ppm higher than the Castrols. These levels are after 3000+ miles of use. The zinc was not "used up". It remained in the oil in sufficient quantities to provide excellent protection to the motor as indicated by the very low wear numbers on this motor, and this is not a car that is babied.

Also note that both these oils contain zinc levels higher than currently allowed by the API SM/ISLAC GF-4 of 0.08% or 800 ppm as this test was run in 2005.

Second consider a very recent test of AMSOIL's current SAE Synthetic 10w30 which does meet API SM/ISLAC GF-4:
Corvette C5 Used Oil Analysis Report Ė AMSOIL SAE Synthetic 10w30 (http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/TestResults/C5%20AMSOIL%2010w30%20UOA.htm)

This motor was run for 5,000 miles and included a full track day - conditions as severe as any of us use our motors for in daily driving. Despite the longer than 3,000 mile interval and the severe duty use, the zinc level was still right at 800 ppm, the limit for API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils. The zinc was not "used up." Additionally, despite the new more restrictive limitations on ZDP, this oil still performed very well in this motor and wear metals are essentially at or below the labs universal averages for that motor family despite the longer than typical drain interval and track day.

Adding to the filter discussion, AMSOIL carries its own filter line (developed in partnership with Wix and Donaldson) and Wix Filters:
AMSOIL Ea Oil Filter (http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/Product%20Bulletins/EAOPB.htm)
WIX Filters (http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/Product%20Bulletins/WIXPB.htm)

Codewize,
As for your question of mixing a 5w30 and a 10w30, I believe you'd end up with an oil that was essentially a 7.5w30, but practically speaking not much would change.

A fluidís viscosity goes down as it heats up. The first number in a multi-grade oilís rating is its viscosity grade when "cold" (40C), the second its viscosity grade when "hot" (100C). Despite the 2nd number being higher, the oils viscosity is about 5-6 times lower at 100C than it is at 40C.

To make a 5W-30 oil, one starts with a 5W oil and adds viscosity improvers (VIs). These VIs have the property that in cold temperatures their polymers coil up, contributing little to the base oils viscosity measurements. At higher temperatures they uncoil to reduce the base oils loss of viscosity as it heats up. So when the VIs break down (shear down) one is left with properties of the original base oil (the 5W stuff). Thus over time, a low quality 5w30 could over time shear down to a 5w20, or worse. Good synthetics do not need as much VI as conventional oil so in general donít shear down as fast. Since a 10w30 will need less VI than a 5w30, again in general it will perform better since there is fewer VI to shear down and there is proportionately more basestock in the 10w30 since it isnít being displaced by VI. That said, there are other higher costs additives that can offset this effect.

Using AMSOIL's 5w30 and 10w30 viscosity numbers as an example since I have those immediately available, the 5w30's viscosity is 10.6 cSt at 100C and 57.3 at 40C, while the 10w30s viscosity is 10.6 cSt at 100C and 59.2 at 100C. So mixing them will result in an oil with a viscosity about 10.6 at 100C and 58.3 or so at 40C... not all that different from either the 5w30 or 10w30 you started with. Bottom line, I don't think its worth your time to bother. If you plan on using a good synthetic, use a 5w30. It provides the same viscosity as the 10w30 when hot, and has a lower viscosity when cold thus providing slightly better cold performance (less startup wear, better cold fuel mileage, etc). :cheers:

peteski
01-18-07, 01:36 AM
Guys, this is worse than political rants! Over 100 posts ?!

You guys are all wasting time deciding on the best oil and filter to use. Most of you change both of them often enough that even the crappiest oil and filter wouldstill work just fine and give you trouble-free 500k miles!

Look throughout this (or any engine related) forum. How many posts you see about some engine problem caused by oil related failure? Probably none. All posts are about some non-oil related issues. And I'm sure lack of oil related failure posts are *NOT* due to everybody using wonderful Amsoil in their engine.

So lets all get a life and forget the oil wars....
Peteski

GreenMachine
01-18-07, 07:15 AM
we're discussing other stuff two, like where to buy the stuff cheap. SHould mention the Advance Auto Parts filters are the same as Purolator only with a red coating, right now they are buy one get one free all month!

JohnnyO
01-19-07, 10:48 AM
You guys are headed for a 12 page thread. Keep going guys! You can do it!

Don't use Fram filters. :stirpot:

codewize
01-19-07, 04:19 PM
I agree 100%. I have a Fram story if you'd like to hear it..


Don't use Fram filters. :stirpot:

Ranger
01-19-07, 06:00 PM
:nanaparty: Yeay, 12 pages. I knew we could do it. :dance7: tits :sunnynana: :band: :banana: :stirpot:

STS127
01-19-07, 06:04 PM
Hey code what is your Fram story.

Cadillacboy
01-19-07, 06:05 PM
OMG !
I bet even an oil filter forum wouldn't make it lol

codewize
01-20-07, 12:54 AM
Well since you asked. Back in the day when I had my 67 rag Camaro I used Fram for a bit mostly because of the marketing hype.

One day I was doing an oil change and I noticed the sun gleaming off the oil in the pan, or so I thought. What it was actually gleaming off of was metal in the oil in the pan.

Yes, metal large enough to see that the Fram filter let through. I went to the parts store and asked my man at the time what he recommended, and that's how I got turned onto WIX. He showed me a Fram filter then showed me a WIX and a MANN and asked me which I wanted on my car. The choice was clear, and so what my oil after that.

I wouldn't put a Fram filter on my lawn mower.

Dadillac
01-20-07, 09:24 AM
Oil filter talk is about as boring and "getnowherefast" as oil talk. Over the years I have heard / read my share of Fram bashing. I have been driving and servicing my cars for 23 years now, and have been using Fram filters almost exclusively. I also have only used a non-dino oil in an engine only a few times (read that as I always use the "cheap" stuff) and I have yet to have an oil related issue with any vehicle I have owned. Aside from the time I was running Mobil1 with a Motorcraft filter in my '93 Bronce back in '94. Stupid me overtightened the filter, squashing the gasket, and allowing that "liquid gold" to run all over the highway. But Fram filters have done me well over the years. I will continue to use them also.

Don

Eldobroken
01-20-07, 12:45 PM
Another oil thread:thepan: make it 13

dkozloski
01-20-07, 08:35 PM
Another oil thread:thepan: make it 13
Everything inside a Fram filter is made out of cardboard. They're so bad it's laughable. Anybody that would use Fram would sleep in their underwear. The can they come in is more useful than the filter.

STS127
01-20-07, 08:42 PM
Are Bosch filters good? Picked one up to do an oil change in the near future.

GreenMachine
01-21-07, 10:25 AM
Oil filter talk is about as boring and "getnowherefast" as oil talk. Over the years I have heard / read my share of Fram bashing. I have been driving and servicing my cars for 23 years now, and have been using Fram filters almost exclusively. I also have only used a non-dino oil in an engine only a few times (read that as I always use the "cheap" stuff) and I have yet to have an oil related issue with any vehicle I have owned. Aside from the time I was running Mobil1 with a Motorcraft filter in my '93 Bronce back in '94. Stupid me overtightened the filter, squashing the gasket, and allowing that "liquid gold" to run all over the highway. But Fram filters have done me well over the years. I will continue to use them also.

Don

When I was reading up on fram it wasn't that they were really bad or anything, it was more or less you could get a better filter for the same price or less making them a bad buy comparing them other brands.

MUGSANDLUKE
01-21-07, 10:54 AM
Happy to see you guys didn't let me down. We're passed the 12 page mark for this thread. Way to go guys!!! Keep up the good work.

GreenMachine
01-21-07, 11:04 AM
I see only 4 pages :P

Whats wrong with trying to find a good deal on oil rather than spending 4 dollars a quart?

Same with filters, if I can spending 2 bucks I will over 4 bucks, especially when companies just rebrand stuff. Its not like we're discussing how a filter works or anything...well I skip over posts that have that in them. This is no differant than a regular vs premium gas debate...which also has the answer right in the manual. Just trying to save a few bucks :)

EcSTSatic
01-21-07, 11:52 AM
And as for the Havoline shortage at Advance Auto I mentioned earlier (I don't care if you use it or not). It's back with new formula and packaging. Introducing Havoline with new DepositShield (http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/depositshield/).

http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/depositshield/images/pr_bottle_black.jpg

STS127
01-21-07, 12:34 PM
I've seen the new Havoline. Must be their new product for 07. I guess that would probably explain why there was a shortage of Havoline at parts reatilers. Is this new desposit sheild stuff only in 5w and 10w 30 weights because if my memory serves me well last time I was at the store they only had the new stuff in these weights.

codewize
01-21-07, 02:12 PM
Why do you suppose this is?

Over the years I have heard / read my share of Fram bashing.


For the same reason I tried them, good marketing. It doesn't mean they're any good.


I have been driving and servicing my cars for 23 years now, and have been using Fram filters almost exclusively.

How long do you keep your cars? Have you ever torn and engine down after a long life with Fram?


But Fram filters have done me well over the years. I will continue to use them also.
Don

clarkz71
01-21-07, 02:27 PM
But Fram filters have done me well over the years. I will continue to use them also.
Don





If someone "gave me" a case of Fram filters, I'd sell them on e-bay and use the money to buy AC Delco filters.

clarkz71
01-21-07, 02:30 PM
Happy to see you guys didn't let me down. We're passed the 12 page mark for this thread. Way to go guys!!! Keep up the good work.

Every time you mention it, it extends this thread another 3 or 4 pages.

I think we should talk about drain plug gaskets, or funnels.

Cadillacboy
01-21-07, 02:32 PM
If someone "gave me" a case of Fram filters, I'd sell them on e-bay and use the money to buy AC Delco filters.

I have done same way . I had 3 or 4 pcs Hastings filters and sold them to another Cadillac owner and with that money I earned I bought AC Delco filters :thumbsup:

Ranger
01-21-07, 07:11 PM
If someone "gave me" a case of Fram filters, I'd sell them on e-bay and use the money to buy AC Delco filters.

:thumbsup: I have to agree.

Dadillac
01-21-07, 07:49 PM
Why do you suppose this is?





Probably the same reason the Northstar has a bad reputation. A few bad experiences doesn't mean an entire product line is crap.

Don

codewize
01-21-07, 09:29 PM
I've never heard anyone say anything negative about the N* with the exception of the idiots that abuse them and then blame the engine for a failure. Like the asswipe trying to start crap about blocks cracking all the time. Come on, that's just ridiculous and you and I both know it.

They just require that you actually follow the maintenance schedule unlike the standard GM L05 350 that we're all used to killing for 500k miles

I think 99% of N* owners love the engine and those of us who know a little more about it love it even more. It's a time tested world class engine. Nothing like Fram filters

I bad mouth Fram because of evidence that I've seen showing full well the product wasn't doing it's job. Nothing like the N*

And just for the record I do think Fram has a good filter out there now but why switch when I have something I love and I'm 100% positive it works

Ranger
01-21-07, 09:40 PM
Don, do some searching. I think I saw an oil filter test over at bobistheoilguy once. Fram did not fare very well. Basically just tissue paper inside if I recall correctly. I use their air filter, but would never use their oil filter.

Dadillac
01-21-07, 10:31 PM
Well I do not have any fear in using a Fram oil filter. Do you really believe that Fram would still be in business if thier filter was that detrimental to an engine? There would be a huge class action suit with hundreds of thousands of claimants. All that I am saying is, the Fram may not be "the best" filter choice out there. But I am more than at ease that it well up to the task at doing what it is supposed to do. And there is no way that Fram is staying in business with the 4 oil filters that I buy each year.

Don

codewize
01-22-07, 09:30 AM
Look, even Ranger agrees with this and he hates these discussions. Yes I do believe a company can survive making junk. Look at the crap the Quakerstate went through. They still make oil. I have no idea who uses it but they still make it.

Dell is still in business and they make crap. People buy it cuz it's cheap, available and easy to buy. Commodity is the word here and once you brand something people no longer care if it's good or not. Honda and Toyota are good examples of that.

The long and the short is maybe no one has proved that Fram filters were the actual cause of any damage but after what I saw it's pretty clear to me that they don't do the intended job which in turn will cause a failure at some point.

Do you really believe that Fram would still be in business if thier filter was that detrimental to an engine?
Don

clarkz71
01-22-07, 12:12 PM
I found this on an oil filter comparison article. Under "filters to avoid", this was the first on the list.


Years ago Fram was a quality filter manufacturer. Now their standard filter (the radioactive-orange cans) is one of the worst out there. It features cardboard end caps for the filter element that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals against the cardboard and frequently leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak all the time. The stamped-metal threaded end is weakly constructed and it has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow. I had one of these filters fail in my previous car. The filter element collapsed and bits of filter and glue were circulating through my system. The oil passage to the head became blocked and the head got so hot from oil starvation that it actually melted the vacuum lines connected to it as well as the wires near it.

C66 Racing
01-23-07, 01:23 AM
... I think I saw an oil filter test over at bobistheoilguy once. ...

This independent filter study is probably the actual source of most of the info you've seen. In my opinion, this is a pretty good study, though it is somewhat dated. :cheers:

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/

GreenMachine
01-23-07, 07:20 AM
Tornado Fuel Saver is still in business.....

codewize
01-23-07, 09:29 AM
Don's probably outside changing his oil and filter. LOL

EcSTSatic
01-23-07, 09:43 AM
I don't know (yes I do - cost) why more manufacturers don't install remote oil filters. My diesel Mercedes had a substantial replaceable cartridge unit mounted on the firewall. You still had to drain the oil from below and let gravity do its thing, but the filter could be replaced by leaning over the fender.

Dadillac
01-23-07, 01:22 PM
Don's probably outside changing his oil and filter. LOL

No way man. I have always done my own oil changes since I started driving back in 1983 (except one time). I used to cave in to the hype of oil filters and synthetic oil. Not anymore though. I use only dino oil, and whatever filter is cheapest or available at the time. Sometimes it is Purolator, sometimes it is Fram. I used to use Motorcraft filters on my Fords when I owned them, because they were available and cheap. But it has been Purolator and Fram for about 23 years now. And I will continue to use them for another 23 years. All of this oil and filter talk does not make me switch my opinion at all. And reading/hearing it in the future will not change my opinion either. I am dead set in my ways, and will not change. At one point I listened to others, and spent $4.00 per quart on oil, and stayed away from certain filters. Not anymore.

Don

clarkz71
01-23-07, 03:07 PM
Did you read this??





I found this on an oil filter comparison article. Under "filters to avoid", this was the first on the list.


Years ago Fram was a quality filter manufacturer. Now their standard filter (the radioactive-orange cans) is one of the worst out there. It features cardboard end caps for the filter element that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals against the cardboard and frequently leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak all the time. The stamped-metal threaded end is weakly constructed and it has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow. I had one of these filters fail in my previous car. The filter element collapsed and bits of filter and glue were circulating through my system. The oil passage to the head became blocked and the head got so hot from oil starvation that it actually melted the vacuum lines connected to it as well as the wires near it.

C66 Racing
01-23-07, 10:49 PM
I don't know (yes I do - cost) why more manufacturers don't install remote oil filters. My diesel Mercedes had a substantial replaceable cartridge unit mounted on the firewall. You still had to drain the oil from below and let gravity do its thing, but the filter could be replaced by leaning over the fender.

The current generation 6.0L turbo diesel in the Ford F250/350 is the same way. My F350 has a huge drop in cartridge filter on top of the motor... but I can't just lean over the fender to change it - I pretty much need to climb on the bumper to reach up high enough to get to it. :D

JohnnyO
01-24-07, 03:49 PM
Tornado Fuel Saver is still in business.....

There's a sucker born every minute. :yup:
Here it's AC filters in the GM's and Motorcrafts in the Fords with the occasional NAPA Gold if I happen to be by the NAPA store.

Night Wolf
01-24-07, 04:18 PM
Just to clear it up....

"Advance Auto Parts" oil *IS* Havoline.

MUGSANDLUKE
01-24-07, 08:43 PM
It's still going! Now 15 pages and counting. Way to go guys! Can you hit 21pages? I know you can do it if you try hard. Get Er Done! Almost as many laughs as a day at the boat launch watching those bozos trying to launch and retrieve their boats. You would think they didn't have thumbs. That's almost as amusing as a 15 page discussion about oil. But, I guess it occupies time for some guys that might otherwise be spent on something more productive, like re-arranging your sock drawer or counting the toothpicks in each box in your cupboard to be sure you weren't short changed by the manufacturer. But I'm rambling and taking up valuable oil discussion time. So enough for the levity, back to the oil.......................

dkozloski
01-24-07, 08:59 PM
The best bargain in oil is reclaimed crankcase drainings. That way you get a little of everything and it's cheap.

dkozloski
01-24-07, 09:03 PM
When I was a kid back in the late '50s working in a gas station we had a board to hang the emptied oil cans on and drain the dregs. The stuff collected in a can at the bottom. It worked just as good as any other oil.

EcSTSatic
01-24-07, 10:52 PM
... But I'm rambling and taking up valuable oil discussion time. So enough for the levity, back to the oil.......................

You've also added about a page yourself just talking about how long this thread is. Your point is?

lukky4u
01-26-07, 09:26 PM
well i got a question....skimmed pretty much through the 1st 14 pages trying to keep focused but couldnt do it so i'll just ask the question....up here in the northern new york area its been ranging from zero to -30 over the last 3 days...my 98 deville has had a hell of a time starting ...i have 10-40penzoil in it ...if i switch to a synthetic even if it was a Wallworld synthetic will that give me a better chance of starting in the morning?? or should i invest in a engine block heater??

clarkz71
01-27-07, 06:28 AM
In those temperatures, you should be running a 5/30, dino or synthetic. 10/40 is not recommended in these cars in any temp.

lukky4u
01-27-07, 09:57 AM
i didnt even think about that (5-30)....thanks!

MUGSANDLUKE
01-27-07, 12:52 PM
My point, since you inquired, is that I find it difficult to believe that this simple topic can be construed as so complicated that it requires 16 pages of rhetoric to answer the same question over and over again. Buy a good brand of oil, change it along with the filter, often, and that's it. End of subject. Solved. All done. Finished. Complete. Nothing left to hash over. What else can be said. End of the story. Finito. No mas. Move on to something else. There are other, bigger things to worry about. Get it? Just my opinion of course, and opinions are like a..holes. Everyone has one. So, what does it all mean in the overall scheme of things, the bigger picture, the grand plan? Nothing, Nada, Zilch, Zero, Naught, Zip, KahKah, and that's another fine mess you've gotten us into Ollie! Page 17 is just around the corner. TTFN

clarkz71
01-27-07, 05:36 PM
Buy a good brand of oil, change it along with the filter, often, and that's it. End of subject. Solved. All done. Finished. Complete. Nothing left to hash over. What else can be said. End of the story.

Not true, you need to buy a good brand of oil that's API starburst certified, 5/30 or 10/30. Not just "a good brand". Good brands come in straight 50 weight. Are you suggesting he use that??:thepan:. Maybe you need to re-read this thread.:stirpot:

clarkz71
01-27-07, 05:39 PM
OK, I give up! Keep talking! TTFN

And by the way, I thought you gave up 13 days ago ??

clarkz71
01-27-07, 05:52 PM
My N* consumes, burns, loses, whatever, a quart of oil every 800 - 1000 miles. I have been following all the forums on the subject and it appears that this is not unusual. Will switching to one of these oils reduce consumption without any other ill effects? If there is a way to do that I would be interested as long as there is no major loss of power, gas mileage, or performance. Which oil would be recommended if in fact there is a better choice? Thanks!


Now who said that on 10-15-06, I know. MUGSANDLUKE !! See post 6. And I thought you were the "Oil Man". I guess we were a little late with this thread to help you.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/87109-found-rotella-10w-30-oreilly-auto.html#post834265

TripleblackETC
01-27-07, 08:22 PM
In those temperatures, you should be running a 5/30, dino or synthetic. 10/40 is not recommended in these cars in any temp.

Yup. It was 5 degrees out yesterday with a -10/-15 wind chill. Had no problem starting the car...just changed the oil at the beginning of the month and put in 5/30.

EcSTSatic
01-28-07, 11:20 AM
What? You mean this thread was helpful? :thumbsup:

clarkz71
01-28-07, 11:24 AM
What? You mean this thread was helpful? :thumbsup:


:yup:

MUGSANDLUKE
01-31-07, 07:28 PM
OK, you got me. I didn't give up. But you guys better get cookin'. You're starting to slide down the list of active threads. You are so close to 21 pages that I am willing to assist with additonal postings, albeit my intentions are purely driven by my comical side. Duracel has nothing on you guys. You just keep going and going and going...................... Bye Bye! I've got to go and change the oil in my prosthetics. Now,,,,,what oil to use is the question.

clarkz71
01-31-07, 07:33 PM
I've got to go and change the oil in my prosthetics. Now,,,,,what oil to use is the question.

AMA certified synthetic prosthetic oil.

AlBundy
01-31-07, 08:00 PM
AMA certified synthetic prosthetic oil.

clarkz71, that's funny.:histeric:

clarkz71
02-08-07, 07:34 AM
I bet they actually have some sort of lube for them.

EcSTSatic
02-08-07, 04:32 PM
Here ya go

http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Assets/Product_Images/9FFB112B-2A76-4A96-BAA0-1E4E21F7F091.jpg (http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Catalog_Product.asp?dept_id=9A8FC714-2987-4EAD-A0EA-4F147566F8A0&product_id=ALPSPA604)

clarkz71
02-08-07, 05:58 PM
Here you go MUGS, ask and ye shall recieve.




http://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifhttp://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/Default_03.gif (http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Default.asp)
http://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/Default_08.gif
http://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifHome (http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Default.asp) > Catalog (http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Catalog.asp) > Socks & Textiles (http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Catalog_Dept.asp?dept_id=A04224A0-0447-4FF4-AF2C-DA11F6AA8D5C) > Ointments & Skin Care (http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Catalog_Dept.asp?dept_id=9A8FC714-2987-4EAD-A0EA-4F147566F8A0) >
http://www.kingsleymfg.com/Assets/Images/spacer.gifAlps Prosthetic Lubricant (PA604)

http://www.kingsleymfg.com/KMFGStore/Assets/Product_Images/9FFB112B-2A76-4A96-BAA0-1E4E21F7F091.jpg70% Isopropyl Alcohol Prosthetic Lubricant for Silicone Liners
ALPS Prosthetic Lubricant is used to help in donning silicone prosthetic liners.
Eliminates the sticky feel and allows the patient to roll up the liner or sheath easily.
Active Ingredient: Silicone
16 oz. bottle.

boxhalr188
02-13-07, 11:03 PM
I'm not familer with Amsoil what is it?

Ranger
02-13-07, 11:27 PM
It is an overpriced oil sold by Amway.

dkozloski
02-14-07, 12:19 AM
It is an overpriced oil sold by Amway.
Sorry Ranger. That's an urban myth. Amsoil is not now and has never been a part of Amway. The similarity is that they are both pyramid marketing schemes.

clarkz71
02-14-07, 01:24 PM
I didn't know that. I thought it was an Amway thing too.

EcSTSatic
02-14-07, 01:31 PM
If you Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsoil) it, you'll get more than you ever wanted to know about Amsoil

Ranger
02-14-07, 05:19 PM
Well, I stand corrected. Guess I was only half right (It's just overpriced oil).

clarkz71
02-14-07, 05:21 PM
Well, I stand corrected. Guess I was only half right (It's just overpriced oil).



I agree.

dkozloski
02-14-07, 06:01 PM
Well, I stand corrected. Guess I was only half right (It's just overpriced oil).
It's the duck butter additive that runs the price up.

Ranger
02-14-07, 07:22 PM
I heard that will be reduced with GF5.

BodybyFisher
02-14-07, 07:26 PM
If you Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsoil) it, you'll get more than you ever wanted to know about Amsoil

NO WONDER they get nuts when criticized or when someone refutes their products.. Someone once told me that when an individual is defensive or adamant about something there has to be an ulterior motive.... Now I understand Thanks

JohnnyO
02-15-07, 10:33 AM
Even I'll say that Amsoil is pretty good oil, my issues are the network marketing scheme, it's overpriced, and the religious fervor of many of the distributors (apart from technical knowledge) from having drunk the Amsoil Kool-Aid.

Counselor
02-20-07, 08:39 AM
I use nothing but Castrol in all my cars and Amsoil in my motorcycle. If you are interested in an incredible additive check out motorkote.com. Its for engine, transmission, powersteering, rear ends. Can use it in 2 strokers anything except wet clutches. Was original made for diesel engines and I deal with diesel engines. Its great stuff.

STS127
02-20-07, 02:02 PM
I've heard of the motorkote. I've read that it is a good product and that it really makes no difference in the engine. Never read anything negative either.

brmurph
03-18-07, 08:42 AM
I have read most of the post but not all. Was there ever a final decision if we should stock up on the old Havoline formula (hard to find but still around) because of the extra zdp for the pre 2000 Northstar? Or should we buy the new formula? Seems to me from what I have read the old formula is cheaper and better for our older Northstars. Right?

AlBundy
03-18-07, 09:34 PM
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/97698-motor-oil-killing-our-cars-long.html

You might want to read this... (if you have'nt.

clarkz71
03-19-07, 03:02 PM
I have read most of the post but not all. Was there ever a final decision if we should stock up on the old Havoline formula (hard to find but still around) because of the extra zdp for the pre 2000 Northstar? Or should we buy the new formula? Seems to me from what I have read the old formula is cheaper and better for our older Northstars. Right?

If you want extra ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) use one of the HD diesel/gas oils, Rotella, Delo, or Delvac. Rotella comes in 10W-30 if you don't like the 15W-40. I just switched to that from Mobil 1. O'Rielly's has it.

cadillacmike68
05-02-07, 01:30 AM
Well, I guess we won't get to 21 pages after all, but I did find out (in a roundabout fashion) why I need to get a quart of GM EOS for my 1995 Fleetwood right away. :shocked: I also need to go find some non ILSAC oil and get a couple of cases. :lildevil:

cadillacmike68
05-02-07, 01:32 AM
Just found out that amsoil was founded by someone in the air facre - which means I won't be buying any of it :bomb:

Submariner409
05-03-07, 01:09 PM
Read my post on P14 of "Motor Oil is Killing............The same info applies here.

clarkz71
05-03-07, 01:47 PM
Hey we might get to 21 pages after all.

Amsoil vs Havoline, what about that?:stirpot:

Submariner409
05-03-07, 05:14 PM
:alchi: Motor oil is becoming like Global Warming......everyone has an opinion and the discussion gets a lot of press........but nothing changes.

wsolman
05-03-07, 05:54 PM
If High Tech Steve finds this thread we'll hit 21 pages for sure.

cadillacmike68
05-03-07, 10:42 PM
no, Ranger will close it if that happens. :stirpot:

Ranger
05-03-07, 10:53 PM
:thumbsup:
Actually, I didn't close the last one. Steve was doing so much damage to himself with each post I was happy to let to go.

JimHare
05-04-07, 01:52 PM
The only two threads I was participating in got closed.. :( Is it me?...lol

Submariner409
05-04-07, 09:57 PM
:sneaky: It wasn't you, JimH.....your coin always seems to land "Heads Up".....

dkozloski
05-04-07, 11:00 PM
If you read through all these posts and all these threads about motor oil it would be pretty easy to conclude that it doesn't make a rat's a$$ what you put in the crankcase. If any motor oil was significantly better than the rest it'd be the only one on the market. If the quality and quantity of motor oil additives was really critical there'd be heavily smoking cars lining both sides of every highway. Nationwide fleets have been operating successfully from barrels of generic motor oil for years and years. Oil mythology abounds.

Ranger
05-04-07, 11:07 PM
Well said, but try convincing HiTec Steve of that. :banghead:

jadcock
05-05-07, 08:00 AM
I think Steve has left the building. I'm STILL waiting for my synthetic oil cost/benefit analysis that he promised me in the recent Seville/Eldorado oil thread. Somehow, I'm not surprised that I haven't seen it yet...