: Boring out the N*?



wpg-topsecret
12-13-06, 03:25 PM
I'd like to get these pistons, http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/92707-new-ross-pistons-n-ceramic-coating.html

Now, they are .005 oversized, so I would have to bore the block right? Is there any special process to do so, or can any machine shop handle it?

jackal2000
12-13-06, 03:34 PM
nothing special about it, any machine shop can do that

codewize
12-13-06, 03:50 PM
Good luck reproducing the cross thatching. A lot of people overlook this but it's one of the small details that makes the N* such a robust engine.

As far as I know no one has been able to reproduce the factory hone pattern. Which leads us to why no one rebuilds N*'s. Well almost no one.

Just an FYI. I'm sure someone will argue this point too.

wpg-topsecret
12-13-06, 03:52 PM
What problems arise with a 'normal' hone job and not the original cross thatching?

eldorado1
12-13-06, 04:27 PM
Find a shop familiar with aluminum block/cast liners... probably means finding a shop that specializes in imports.

Also see here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/91248-reuse-pistion-rings.html

btw, you'd probably do better to ask on the fiero forum... people like to throw away engines here...

dkozloski
12-13-06, 05:03 PM
Find a shop familiar with aluminum block/cast liners... probably means finding a shop that specializes in imports.

Also see here:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/91248-reuse-pistion-rings.html

btw, you'd probably do better to ask on the fiero forum... people like to throw away engines here...
The procedure for honing is in the factory service manuals and is a simple matter for an experienced engine man. The only hitch is that because the factory uses diamond tools it is easier for them to maintain consistancy. This is till no problem for an experienced hand. Basicaly you start with a coarse hone for oil control and finish with a fine hone for smooth plateaus.

danbuc
12-13-06, 06:44 PM
Just throwin this out there, the maximum overbore for the cast liners is .040. If it were me, and I was investing in some forged pistons, I'd also save up a little more (well, maybe a lot more) and get a set of forged rods to go with it. No sense in taking the motor apart, if your not gonna do everything you can. Just a thought.

dkozloski
12-13-06, 07:08 PM
Just throwin this out there, the maximum overbore for the cast liners is .040. If it were me, and I was investing in some forged pistons, I'd also save up a little more (well, maybe a lot more) and get a set of forged rods to go with it. No sense in taking the motor apart, if your not gonna do everything you can. Just a thought.
Northstar rods are hydroforged with cracked caps from the factory. The only thing questionable is the rod bolts. There are good aftermarket bolts.

codewize
12-13-06, 08:55 PM
This sound exciting. What's hydro-forging and what does it mean to have cracked caps.


Northstar rods are hydroforged with cracked caps from the factory. The only thing questionable is the rod bolts. There are good aftermarket bolts.

Dadillac
12-13-06, 09:07 PM
Does a .005 oversized piston even need the cylinder to be bored out? I would think that with that small of a size difference, the rings would just need to be shaved down a touch.

Don

dkozloski
12-13-06, 09:31 PM
This sound exciting. What's hydro-forging and what does it mean to have cracked caps.
Alloying metals can be very difficult with some combinations, like trying to stir the grease in with the soup and have it stay there. What they do is atomize the metals until they are like powder and mix them together like a cake before you add the liquids. The powder is then forced together under extreme heat and pressure until it fuses into alloys that can be created no other way. The big and little ends of the rod are bored for the crank, the rod bolts, and the piston pin. The big end is scored and the cap broken off. The jagged edges are left so that when the engine is assembled the jagged edges marry together and there is absolutely no movement between the two. This is a very high tech method of manufacture. Straight forging is old school and confines you to inferior alloy metals.

dkozloski
12-13-06, 09:40 PM
Does a .005 oversized piston even need the cylinder to be bored out? I would think that with that small of a size difference, the rings would just need to be shaved down a touch.

Don
Piston to cylinder clearances can be very small. I've rebored some two stroke cycles the were less than 0.001in. If there is little wear the job can be done with a good rigid hone like a Barnes or Sunnen. If the cylinders are bellied out you'd have to use a boring bar. Use a honing plate torqued to specs.

codewize
12-14-06, 11:00 AM
Wow that's pretty damn interesting. These engines just get more and more complex by the day.

Thanks, great post


Alloying metals can be very difficult with some combinations, like trying to stir the grease in with the soup and have it stay there. What they do is atomize the metals until they are like powder and mix them together like a cake before you add the liquids. The powder is then forced together under extreme heat and pressure until it fuses into alloys that can be created no other way. The big and little ends of the rod are bored for the crank, the rod bolts, and the piston pin. The big end is scored and the cap broken off. The jagged edges are left so that when the engine is assembled the jagged edges marry together and there is absolutely no movement between the two. This is a very high tech method of manufacture. Straight forging is old school and confines you to inferior alloy metals.

dp102288
12-14-06, 08:50 PM
:yeah: I love learning about the engine!

dkozloski
12-15-06, 04:18 PM
I just read an SAE report that states that head to head scientific testing gives the nod to powder forged rods over conventional forged rods because they don't have the surface defects, folds, and slag inclusions. In just about any category of testing, powder forged rods are superior.

Murphyg
12-15-06, 06:04 PM
If youve never done honing before you should probably leave it to the pros.
Im not saying its any where at all near to rocket science.
But you do want it straight and true.

We get the ocassional honing job at work.
Mind you we're working with tenths of a thou. Ether way, it can still take some time to select the correct stone to achieve optimum material removal along with the required finish.
We have a Sunnen machine.

But the stone recomendations in the manual for material and finish specs are really just a guide line. A starting off point.
Using the correct lubrication is also important.

I know there is a large difference between thousands of an inch and ten thousands of an inch.
But there is also a large difference between a honing machine that is capable of gauging pressure and material removal, and honing by hand.

With either or of the two, if inexperienced, it is easily possible to accidently remove too much material. Resulting in an inconsistant hone diameter, or ending up with too smooth or course of a finish.

Can take some time, and definatally some patience, to get the correct combination of stone and the feel of the pressure to achieve the desired results.

dkozloski
12-15-06, 07:02 PM
If youve never done honing before you should probably leave it to the pros.
Im not saying its any where at all near to rocket science.
But you do want it straight and true.

We get the ocassional honing job at work.
Mind you we're working with tenths of a thou. Ether way, it can still take some time to select the correct stone to achieve optimum material removal along with the required finish.
We have a Sunnen machine.

But the stone recomendations in the manual for material and finish specs are really just a guide line. A starting off point.
Using the correct lubrication is also important.

I know there is a large difference between thousands of an inch and ten thousands of an inch.
But there is also a large difference between a honing machine that is capable of gauging pressure and material removal, and honing by hand.

With either or of the two, if inexperienced, it is easily possible to accidently remove too much material. Resulting in an inconsistant hone diameter, or ending up with too smooth or course of a finish.

Can take some time, and definatally some patience, to get the correct combination of stone and the feel of the pressure to achieve the desired results.

I've finish honed hundreds if not thousands of aircraft cylinders. I've also oversize ground hundreds if not thousands more cylinders on a 16C16 Bryant grinder. As fill-in work I did racing two-stroke cycle cylinders. Those things are really tricky. My experience is that the tendency is to remove too little rather than too much. The most difficult part is the gauging and fitting. I was lucky to have a mentor that had been in the business for forty years. The only way to learn is to get in there and do it with a good man looking over your shoulder.

Murphyg
12-16-06, 01:43 AM
I've finish honed hundreds if not thousands of aircraft cylinders. I've also oversize ground hundreds if not thousands more cylinders on a 16C16 Bryant grinder. As fill-in work I did racing two-stroke cycle cylinders. Those things are really tricky. My experience is that the tendency is to remove too little rather than too much. The most difficult part is the gauging and fitting. I was lucky to have a mentor that had been in the business for forty years. The only way to learn is to get in there and do it with a good man looking over your shoulder.

Thats the ticket.
But sad to say that when it comes to tickets/certificates for the precision work thats required in the aircraft, automotive, and especially the mold industry....there is no such animal in North America.

You have Steam Fitters, Pipe Fitters, Tool and Die Makers, Millrights, Machinists of all sorts of grades, types, skills.
Tickets and or licences for all of them.

But when it comes down to the tight tolerences. The fine finishes. The really precise specs that are critical. Where's it sent to ?
Its sent to a precision Grinding shop or some place of that nature.

There is no schooling. No training other than hands on. No ticket available whatsoever, for what is more often than not the final and most precise aspect of so much of what is manufactured today.

I believe that in Europe it is still posible to recieve a cert for Tool Cutter Grinding. But other than that it appears to be a hands on passed down specialty trade.

I have met more than a few young individuals that have harped on wanting to get there cert at Millright or Tool and Die. And Ive told everyone of them that have passed by that if thats what they want then dont let on you have grinding experience. You will be surelly stuck on the old piece of WWI surplus grinder. And was proven right every time.
Im not learnin anything on my apprenticeship. All they have me doin is the grinding.

And how many times did I say Tool and Die Makers are a dime a dozen ?
Who finishes there work when its done ?

Its sent to us. You want it precise you send it to a precision grinder.
Precise diameteres. Radiuses. Forms. Precise tapers, locking and stack heights. One offs or runs whatever number.
Calculate the drop of 2 pieces mating with a 10 degree angle. Is quite tight specially when the required preload is within tenths. And to do it on a run of 15 pieces each. Internal and external. No matching and numbering. All the same and interchangable.

We are a dying breed my friend. No one wants to get into it anymore. Is not recognized, and never has been, as an actuall certified trade.
Will be a big problem in the near future.
Guess thats why we're gettin the big bucks now.
Wellllll.......Should be a hell of alot bigger. Still doesnt compare to some.
But is scary when you think bout it.

dkozloski
12-16-06, 04:38 PM
Thats the ticket.
But sad to say that when it comes to tickets/certificates for the precision work thats required in the aircraft, automotive, and especially the mold industry....there is no such animal in North America.

You have Steam Fitters, Pipe Fitters, Tool and Die Makers, Millrights, Machinists of all sorts of grades, types, skills.
Tickets and or licences for all of them.

But when it comes down to the tight tolerences. The fine finishes. The really precise specs that are critical. Where's it sent to ?
Its sent to a precision Grinding shop or some place of that nature.

There is no schooling. No training other than hands on. No ticket available whatsoever, for what is more often than not the final and most precise aspect of so much of what is manufactured today.

I believe that in Europe it is still posible to recieve a cert for Tool Cutter Grinding. But other than that it appears to be a hands on passed down specialty trade.

I have met more than a few young individuals that have harped on wanting to get there cert at Millright or Tool and Die. And Ive told everyone of them that have passed by that if thats what they want then dont let on you have grinding experience. You will be surelly stuck on the old piece of WWI surplus grinder. And was proven right every time.
Im not learnin anything on my apprenticeship. All they have me doin is the grinding.

And how many times did I say Tool and Die Makers are a dime a dozen ?
Who finishes there work when its done ?

Its sent to us. You want it precise you send it to a precision grinder.
Precise diameteres. Radiuses. Forms. Precise tapers, locking and stack heights. One offs or runs whatever number.
Calculate the drop of 2 pieces mating with a 10 degree angle. Is quite tight specially when the required preload is within tenths. And to do it on a run of 15 pieces each. Internal and external. No matching and numbering. All the same and interchangable.

We are a dying breed my friend. No one wants to get into it anymore. Is not recognized, and never has been, as an actuall certified trade.
Will be a big problem in the near future.
Guess thats why we're gettin the big bucks now.
Wellllll.......Should be a hell of alot bigger. Still doesnt compare to some.
But is scary when you think bout it.
My brother-in-law makes the "impossible parts" at a major manufacturer of construction and farm equipment because he can do it all from A to Z. If it's not prototypes or production bottlenecks it's making a replacement part out of billet stock to replace a long forgotten casting. He could work 24hrs a day if he wanted. It's a lot easier then I used to do it with lathes, drill presses, and milling machines with modern CNC tooling but you still have to know what you're doing and what the machine can do. Every machinist that comes along claims to be a tool and die maker but if you hand him a broken part and tell him to make a new one he'll quickly disappear; machine operators all.

MonzaRacer
12-17-06, 10:27 PM
First of all MurphyG if you can produce clas act work on WW1 tools then you move up if not then you get the crap job.
I learned engine machine work from one of the best and we actually still use a 1937 Van Norman boring bar and it is still an industry standard quality and will bore perfectly straight EVERYTIME.
As a tech, machinst and engine builder lets get it right here if the machine shop works on the Northstar or understands you need a certain RMS finish prtty much any GOOD machine shop can reproduce as good or better than factory finish.
As for me with a 0.005 over piston I would need access to a troque plate and a selection of stones suited for the liner materiel and simply hone to spec.
Now unless it is a high silicon aluminum or nickel/chrome plate liner then you would need some more aggresive stone.
I have in my maching experience honed a "crystal liner" Honda and it still runs. We hope to soon bring it back in and press in cast iron liners and the reinforcement plate in the top of the engine so he can boost it.
I have a complete set of AERA books and no recomendations other than a torque plate is required on the N*. now on the HT series, well those garbage can can die before I ever try to bore one again.WE had a GM approved/used liner stabilizer and it still spun liners ,,besides all of the head bolt hole were cracked.
But as for the N*/Aurora engines I see no problems in machinework if the machinist is competent and informed.
Now as for the rods hydroformed is another term used for PPM(pressed powdered metal (matrix) rod similar to all of the longer 5.940 LT V8 rods used on the LT engines.
Now as for being better in some repects yes, cheaper yes, but only up to a cretain power range, as you will never see a set in a top fueler. But for a production engine and up to certain hp/boost levels they will work and have a better fatigue life in limited racing apps.
I have personally seen a 383 LT base engine turn 788hp on NOS with PPM rods but it did blow a rod down the road, they have a cycle life in extreme stress conditions.
Choose your machine shope wisely and even call Sunnen for some hoest honing info(GM buys a lot of Sunnenproducts,hint, )
Good Luck
Lee

N-star
12-18-06, 09:52 AM
wpg-topsecret (http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/member.php?u=46866) http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_900839", true);





Believe me it is not all that difficult or extra special, is just like I said it before and many other fellows on this thread have, it is all about having the right person do it with the right equipment, and this is not rare.
There has to be a qualified machine shop where you life. And just take it one step at the time, first buy the pistons, and if money allows it get a set of Eagle forged rods (they are the most affordable rods for the N*) around $450 a set.

At this point I'm more concerned with you getting back with me, since I need the money and I might be able to wait for you, but you have to let me know how much longer should I wait?

This is my email Jaimee355@hotmail.com (Jaimee355@hotmail.com) and my cell 772-359 9057

By the way what is your email?

Please advice,
JG

Murphyg
12-18-06, 06:14 PM
First of all MurphyG if you can produce clas act work on WW1 tools then you move up if not then you get the crap job.
I learned engine machine work from one of the best and we actually still use a 1937 Van Norman boring bar and it is still an industry standard quality and will bore perfectly straight EVERYTIME.
As a tech, machinst and engine builder lets get it right here if the machine shop works on the Northstar or understands you need a certain RMS finish prtty much any GOOD machine shop can reproduce as good or better than factory finish.


Good ol Grandpa Norman.
Was what I learned on.
Big-assed brute crank-shaft grinder. Was capable of some amazing work. Was hilarious when the boss purchased a brand new Italian machine. Berco RTM 351 (believe it was called). It didnt even come close. It just seemed to fragile.
Liked the old Churchills too.
Was cool to read the plates on all them old ones that refered to what tolerences they were capable of. And knowing how much more they could really do. Maybe at the time they were manufactured, they didnt have the measuring instruments capable of showing the true tolerences they were capable of putting out.

BTW.
Dont understand what the "First of all MurphyG" is all about.
Just said have met many individuals that no longer wanted to do the grinding.
Had been doing it but wanted to apprentice in Tool and Die.
Advised them not to let on that you have so much grinding experience or else thats where you will be. And I was right. Was always the same. Was very difficult for them to get the oportunity to do and learn what they wanted to do and learn. They could grind, they were good at it, so the companys would take advantage of that skill and generally disregard what these youths thought they were there to do and learn.
Thought it was good advice, and always heard back that they should have listened.

Appeard to me we where on the same page.

Is best to get someone experienced to do or help out with the job.
Different variables etc etc...

Maybe you didnt understand my post.
SoK :thumbsup:

dkozloski
12-18-06, 07:48 PM
Good ol Grandpa Norman.
Was what I learned on.
Big-assed brute crank-shaft grinder. Was capable of some amazing work. Was hilarious when the boss purchased a brand new Italian machine. Berco RTM 351 (believe it was called). It didnt even come close. It just seemed to fragile.
Liked the old Churchills too.
Was cool to read the plates on all them old ones that refered to what tolerences they were capable of. And knowing how much more they could really do. Maybe at the time they were manufactured, they didnt have the measuring instruments capable of showing the true tolerences they were capable of putting out.

BTW.
Dont understand what the "First of all MurphyG" is all about.
Just said have met many individuals that no longer wanted to do the grinding.
Had been doing it but wanted to apprentice in Tool and Die.
Advised them not to let on that you have so much grinding experience or else thats where you will be. And I was right. Was always the same. Was very difficult for them to get the oportunity to do and learn what they wanted to do and learn. They could grind, they were good at it, so the companys would take advantage of that skill and generally disregard what these youths thought they were there to do and learn.
Thought it was good advice, and always heard back that they should have listened.

Appeard to me we where on the same page.

Is best to get someone experienced to do or help out with the job.
Different variables etc etc...

Maybe you didnt understand my post.
SoK :thumbsup:
I ground hundreds if not thousands of aircraft cylinders on a Bryant 16C16 grinder that the owner bought in the 1950's for $35,000 used. It was so big and heavy it had to go by ship through the Panama Canal. We made our own contour bar for it to choke bore cylinders. As the stone went in and out of the bore you could see the cylinder breathe on the Federal diamond bore gauge. The whole machine was hydraulically controlled, was as smooth as butter, and as rugged as an Irish fight in a Russian saloon. Once you got the hang of it you could play it like a grand piano. Compared to that thing the modern machines are laughable. I still remember the Bijour oiler doing its thing and the multi disk oil filter with the twist handle. If you're going to be doing precision work the first requirement is that the machine has to be absolutely rigid and solid. If somebody else is doing the work all you need to do is listen to the machine to tell how well he's doing.

N-star
12-18-06, 10:23 PM
Come on guys enough of that,
:thehand:
First of all you come to this thread and hijacked it with my cosing bought such and such machine, or he owns such and such tool machine, or ya ay ya....This thread was started by wpg-topsecret his first intentions were to find out if the block can be bore out to his specs, but never to see you guys take on a pissing contest about your friends or your cousin's cool skills or tools wherever....

Lets put this thread back on track and don't take this the wrong way:yup: just as a respectful action lets stop here with your "tool fabricating" comments

Thanks,:thumbsup:
JG

dkozloski
12-18-06, 10:48 PM
Come on guys enough of that,
:thehand:
First of all you come to this thread and hijacked it with my cosing bought such and such machine, or he owns such and such tool machine, or ya ay ya....This thread was started by wpg-topsecret his first intentions were to find out if the block can be bore out to his specs, but never to see you guys take on a pissing contest about your friends or your cousin's cool skills or tools wherever....

Lets put this thread back on track and don't take this the wrong way:yup: just as a respectful action lets stop here with your "tool fabricating" comments

Thanks,:thumbsup:
JG
Did he find out if he can bore it? I think so. He also found out in detail how to do it. Relax.

Murphyg
12-18-06, 10:49 PM
Thought thats where it was.
Sure it went a bit wayward but dont think enough to say it was hijacked.
Went a bit far as to specifics as to boring, honing, precision internal grinding and such. But dont think it was a hyjack.
Believe it was told it can definatally be done. But added info as to how and why certain procedures should probably be performed by those that are qualifyed.
Dont even think there was a pissing contest going on.
Maybe a slight mis-cue as to a post or two.
But that is understandable when so much is posted.
Mistakes and misunderstandings can be made.

Thought there was alot of info here that actually "more" than covered the original question.

Damned good thread if you ask me.

MonzaRacer
12-18-06, 10:49 PM
Sorry for the wandering off topic but when I get to talking machining I still think some of the new equipment is junk even with good tech behind it.
But the one point I had tried to send was find a good shop that has good rep and history and givethem a call.
As for the tip on honing if you call Sunnen they can also possibly point you toward a local shop that has thier tools and the technology to machine a N*.
But according to my friend the N*s only thing that makes it fun is that GM wants super slick finish which means either J500 stones or Cork-Bond stones like most racers use for super slick finish ( I believe Total Seal still requires this too)Proper ring gap checking and keeping clearances proper and you will have a good engine. Find a proper metal treatment company and either spend a few buck Cryogenicly tempering therods and get them shot peened and the stock rods with ARP bolts will hold up to around 600 hp no problem(this from a friend who routinely squeezes his 4.0).
As for the 0.005 over pistons have your bores miked to make sure you dont need a larger piston to clean up any scuffs,wear and tear. Hate to see a person buy some pistons then have to buy more and try to sell the first set.
Good luck
Lee

dkozloski
12-18-06, 11:22 PM
Sorry for the wandering off topic but when I get to talking machining I still think some of the new equipment is junk even with good tech behind it.
But the one point I had tried to send was find a good shop that has good rep and history and givethem a call.
As for the tip on honing if you call Sunnen they can also possibly point you toward a local shop that has thier tools and the technology to machine a N*.
But according to my friend the N*s only thing that makes it fun is that GM wants super slick finish which means either J500 stones or Cork-Bond stones like most racers use for super slick finish ( I believe Total Seal still requires this too)Proper ring gap checking and keeping clearances proper and you will have a good engine. Find a proper metal treatment company and either spend a few buck Cryogenicly tempering therods and get them shot peened and the stock rods with ARP bolts will hold up to around 600 hp no problem(this from a friend who routinely squeezes his 4.0).
As for the 0.005 over pistons have your bores miked to make sure you dont need a larger piston to clean up any scuffs,wear and tear. Hate to see a person buy some pistons then have to buy more and try to sell the first set.
Good luck
Lee
I've done it the other way around on some really old stuff. You bore the block to whatever will clean up and buy rough cast pistons and fit them to the bore. I didn't have a cam grinder to contour the pistons so I offset the them on a faceplate to fake it. It worked. I made the rings out of some centrifugally cast ring blanks laying around the shop. I peened the inside of the ring with a small hammer to create the tension. The thing ran.

N-star
12-22-06, 11:24 PM
Are you getting these pistons or NOT?:cool:

I can't wait for you any longer, and you need to step up and let me know, you might want to contact me ASAP!

(772) 359 9057 Believe me it is for your own good to talk to me for either more time or not more waiting?:hmm:

No more games:
Is there anyone else who want these?:cool2: email me or call me withing the next 24 hours:

myferrari355spider@yahoo.com

Free shipping to the first bidder:bouncy:

JG



I'd like to get these pistons, http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/92707-new-ross-pistons-n-ceramic-coating.html

Now, they are .005 oversized, so I would have to bore the block right? Is there any special process to do so, or can any machine shop handle it?

Murphyg
12-23-06, 01:50 PM
I ground hundreds if not thousands of aircraft cylinders on a Bryant 16C16 grinder that the owner bought in the 1950's for $35,000 used. It was so big and heavy it had to go by ship through the Panama Canal. We made our own contour bar for it to choke bore cylinders. As the stone went in and out of the bore you could see the cylinder breathe on the Federal diamond bore gauge. The whole machine was hydraulically controlled, was as smooth as butter, and as rugged as an Irish fight in a Russian saloon. Once you got the hang of it you could play it like a grand piano. Compared to that thing the modern machines are laughable. I still remember the Bijour oiler doing its thing and the multi disk oil filter with the twist handle. If you're going to be doing precision work the first requirement is that the machine has to be absolutely rigid and solid. If somebody else is doing the work all you need to do is listen to the machine to tell how well he's doing.


Bryant ????
That name sounds so familiar. But for the life of me cant put my finger on as to where Ive seen or If Ive worked on one..
Love your analogys, ".....was as smooth as butter, and as rugged as an Irish fight in a Russian saloon......." Have heard many before but think thats one of the best. Definatally in the top 10 :thumbsup:

"......Once you got the hang of it you could play it like a grand piano. Compared to that thing the modern machines are laughable......" True enough to say its very very sad. Im currently doing precision mold grinding. (May have mentioned that). Do gauges as well etc....
The machines we use are quite smaller then Id been used to but are unbelievable precise. And of course older. Tos Hostivar (Russian made machines). Damned nice tools.

Boss just recently bought a new CNC grinder. And for the life of me I cant remember the name. Pullin a major brain fart here lol :suspect: I was quite suspect at first at how well it would actually perform. Being a new machine and from what Ive experienced in the past. I was quite concerned about his $250,000 investment.
But wow what a nice machine. The precisesness that it is cable of, as well as the consistancy, is like nothing I thought was possible with grinding.

"STUDER !!!" Thats its name. Just came to me lol. Very nice piece of equipment.
Would truelly recomend it.

"If somebody else is doing the work all you need to do is listen to the machine to tell how well he's doing."

Is refreshing to "Hear", pun intended, that there are still some around that know what is truelly involved in the aspects of precision finishing.
So many times i tell people that I do grinding and what comes to there minds is a hand held disk grinder used for de-burring.
And no matter how you try to explain it to them the closest they can relate to is machining on a lathe.
Can be quite frustrating :bigroll:

Keep up the good work :yup:

Oh ya,
Also sorry for the off topic. But like said good info and a refreshing discussion.

dkozloski
12-23-06, 02:16 PM
Bryant ????
That name sounds so familiar. But for the life of me cant put my finger on as to where Ive seen or If Ive worked on one..
Love your analogys, ".....was as smooth as butter, and as rugged as an Irish fight in a Russian saloon......." Have heard many before but think thats one of the best. Definatally in the top 10 :thumbsup:

"......Once you got the hang of it you could play it like a grand piano. Compared to that thing the modern machines are laughable......" True enough to say its very very sad. Im currently doing precision mold grinding. (May have mentioned that). Do gauges as well etc....
The machines we use are quite smaller then Id been used to but are unbelievable precise. And of course older. Tos Hostivar (Russian made machines). Damned nice tools.

Boss just recently bought a new CNC grinder. And for the life of me I cant remember the name. Pullin a major brain fart here lol :suspect: I was quite suspect at first at how well it would actually perform. Being a new machine and from what Ive experienced in the past. I was quite concerned about his $250,000 investment.
But wow what a nice machine. The precisesness that it is cable of, as well as the consistancy, is like nothing I thought was possible with grinding.

"STUDER !!!" Thats its name. Just came to me lol. Very nice piece of equipment.
Would truelly recomend it.

"If somebody else is doing the work all you need to do is listen to the machine to tell how well he's doing."

Is refreshing to "Hear", pun intended, that there are still some around that know what is truelly involved in the aspects of precision finishing.
So many times i tell people that I do grinding and what comes to there minds is a hand held disk grinder used for de-burring.
And no matter how you try to explain it to them the closest they can relate to is machining on a lathe.
Can be quite frustrating :bigroll:

Keep up the good work :yup:

Oh ya,
Also sorry for the off topic. But like said good info and a refreshing discussion.
A guy I used to work with had worked for a company in Vermont that made precision diamond cutting tools. He said he almost cried at times how quickly the diamond dust ate up the machine tools. Machine tools that looked new would be worn beyond usefulness. A Bryant grinder has a full pressure(bijour) one way oiling system that floods the bearing surfaces and flushes out the debris continuously. It can get messy but the machines last forever. On another note, I read the other day that over 95% of the Monarch toolroom lathes made since the 1930's are still in use on a daily basis. You can't say that about cars.

Murphyg
12-23-06, 05:09 PM
A guy I used to work with had worked for a company in Vermont that made precision diamond cutting tools. He said he almost cried at times how quickly the diamond dust ate up the machine tools. Machine tools that looked new would be worn beyond usefulness. A Bryant grinder has a full pressure(bijour) one way oiling system that floods the bearing surfaces and flushes out the debris continuously. It can get messy but the machines last forever. On another note, I read the other day that over 95% of the Monarch toolroom lathes made since the 1930's are still in use on a daily basis. You can't say that about cars.

Good idea to add the car thing in there.
Is a Cadillac forum LOL.

The Tos' we work on have I believe the same type of a system. The bed ways are constantly being flooded and flushed with oil.
But if my memory serves me correctly Its not a bearing system. Is just bed ways.
They are generally used for a different application other than strictly tool cutting. With doing cylindrical and such, that requires more material to be removed, coolant is used 80% of the time. That helps in keeping the dusts to a minimum.

Did tool cutting for just over 4 years and that machine tool had bearings within the ways. And again another brain fart. Cant remember the name.
Was also an older machine. But no flushing for the bearings. Had to do periodic maintanance to assure they were clean.
First time Id seen bearings as such. Came in strips encased in a nylon sheath of some sort.

But when it comes to the older machines. Just like you said, and any old time millright will tell you.
If it doesnt leak then there's something wrong with it.

Know how hard it is to explain to the "New and fressssshly schooled young supervisor :bighead: " that its supposed to leak.
"This is such a mess ! How are we supposed to show our shop to new customers when our machines are leaking. If we're not capable of fixing our own equipment they wont believe we're capable of manufacturing !!!"

In no way can you explain to someone like that, that that is the design and is the way it was made for optimum longevity and production.

Im now starting to babble. Sry
Will try to drop a laxative on my verbal diahareha. :canttalk: