: Lemon?



LLT
12-10-06, 09:21 PM
The "what's next, wheels fall off?" topic had me thinking all weekend. I'll give you an as-brief-as-possible overview of where I'm at and welcome your opinion as to what you would do if it were your vehicle.

I factory ordered an ESV back in May/June. There were constraints on the 22" wheels with Navigation and I'm never willing to do aftermarket (just personal preference), so I just waited. I lost interest for a bit and it finally came in around mid-September. It was still on the lot a month ago, so I bought it.

* On the night I took delivery, the nav wouldn't turn on after warm-restart. It would only turn on again after 30 minutes. This happened a few other times and the dealer was unable to verify concern. It finally happened to me while I was close to the dealer so I was able to get it there and they verified. They replaced the module and the nav system and that problem went away.

* The second day I had it, I put the rear passenger window down and the whole assembly came out. That part was on national backorder - it took the dealer a week or so to get it, but they replaced it and it was good as new.

* There's a squealing noise on cold-start that lasts until normal operating temperature. GM said it's the accessory drive, there was already a case number and they're unsure how to fix it as of yet.

* I took my wife and daughter on a road trip last weekend and the heat went out on the driver's side, completely. I thought this was due to the Ipod kit... I removed it and the heat worked, but it happened again a few days ago. I took it to the dealer for other things and told them about the hvac... they reprogrammed the module, called me yesterday to come pick it up and now the heat doesn't work at all.

* The driver's door has incredible wind noise and a draft blowing through it. Dealer applied a TSB, but it didn't help. They're trying something else as of now.

* The exhaust is awful. Produces a resonating droning sound at normal speeds that literally gives you a headache. Everyone from family to clients have commented on the sound. Tech has compared against another ESV on the lot and concluded its normal. I called Cadillac customer service and they indicated that there are a lot of people unhappy with the exhaust, but the engineers deem it normal.

* Windshield had a 1.5-2" defect that turned out to be a defect within the glass (not surface) - dealer replaced.

* Cruise control randomly inoperative. Dealer verified and replaced something or other. Seems ok now.

* Mirror vibration. Dealer applied TSB.

There's a few other little things that either are or are being resolved. Although the dealer has been great, I'm just a bit concerned about the issues (however small they may seem.) I've had a lot of vehicles over the years, most good, but with the few bad ones, the problems never seem to go away. It's an endless cycle of one thing after another.

I got into it pretty good with GMS pricing, rebates, etc. I'm just wondering if I should cut my losses now, sell it outright or trade it and get something I'll be happy with, or fight it out with GM. I'm leaning towards the former.

Your thoughts? :D

DLH
12-10-06, 09:34 PM
WOW!---I feel bad now because I started that thread and thus far have encountered no issues. However, having read what others stated I started that thread to ponder what could be. I feel bad for your experience and this is what kept me awake. Based on all that you've listed I would say you are possibly just short of the lade owner whose motor blew up. I drove by the RR dealership today and wondered if I had made the right decision. However, as I stated in that same thread they all have issues----RR, Mercedes, Lexus and Audi. I'm going to park my other cars and drive the wheels off my '07. If problems arrise I will post here in support of your "Lemon" question.

Thanks goodness I leased! Short term!

05 Cadillac Escalade
12-10-06, 09:51 PM
Best solution would be to demand a new one and get corporate involved if you have to. If they don't seem to help from there, then examine your options, which would probably be getting a different vehicle and selling the ESV. Good luck.

Thanks.

TheCaddyKidd
12-10-06, 10:44 PM
i doubt you will get a new vehicle.. unless you have the same problem and bring it in multiple times.. if you have a bunch of different problems that are fixed thats basically it.. i mean maybe you might be able to get something but i very much doubt it... once the problem is fixed thats it.. its fixed... if the same problem happens over and over again and the dealer cant fix it you might have something to work with but with just a bunch of minor problems here and there that isnt much to work with..

Synergetic
12-10-06, 10:54 PM
Problems, problems, problems...... trade it in.

LLT
12-10-06, 10:54 PM
Actually, in many states it's:

3 repair attempts for same thing
30 days out of service
1 repair attempt for safety defect
6 separate repair attempts for various issues

I'd meet the 6 repairs and I'm a week from meeting the 30 day mark (dealer has had it a total of 22 days.) Just because it's not the same issue does not exclude it from being a lemon. :)

TheCaddyKidd
12-11-06, 02:28 AM
idk.. i have a feeling you will see GM not give in so easily.. plus you have to remember that their lawyers are going to be a little be better then what the average person will be able to afford.. and with the pull a corporation like them has it probably would just get drawn out.. idk.. do what you will but i would just cut the losses if you really cant stand it and trade it.. actually you can sell it outright.. if you dont have much mileage im sure you can find a buyer.. i would say overall you would probably lose 5000 or so depending on how much mileage you have..

hcvone
12-11-06, 06:59 AM
I have two standard Escalade's, my "oldest" one has been 100% trouble free, I keep it at my Montana home, of course many of you know my newest one blew the engine at 897 miles. I have been driving it since the engine has been replaced, and I was waiting on my replacement, and I really hate giving this one up even thought the engine has been replaced because the truck does not have a rattle and it runs great. My replacement truck is in and I am picking it up this week. If you want GM to replace your truck I found out that you really need the dealer to go to bat for you, my dealership really did a lot to get me a replacement truck, and I can't thank them enough. :) Of course buying a zillion cars and trucks from them did not hurt either.

caddycruiser
12-11-06, 10:10 AM
Sounds like a Chrysler 300M we had several years ago--was my mother's dream car at the time, and the second model year, so she found one she liked and bought it. Loved it at first, but over the course of a year and a half or so, it just seemed to have a lot of constant little (though usually very annoying) issues. Front end vibration (bad OEM tires, so not fixed), lights started flickering (fixed), wipers went nuts (fixed twice), passenger power seat motor broke (fixed), and--most annoying to me--it developed various rattles despite being pampered and never really driven over much more than a lumpy street.

To us it started to feel like a lemon, but because it was never one single important issue being repaired multiple times, it never qualified. Just a bunch of smaller annoying things. In the end, between the constant issues and just deciding we needed more room, we traded it off for an Avalanche and never looked back.

For as much as an ESV costs, I completely understand the aggravation. They seem to be doing fairly well for first model year trucks, but nothing is perfect--and you seem to have gotten one with more bugs than usual. At this point, you can probably either hope all the small things get sorted out soon and stop, or if it just seems like they won't, complain to the dealer & GM corporate or just go and trade it off.

LLT
12-11-06, 11:43 PM
Thanks for the replies, guys - much appreciated. :)

As an update, the dealer is hard at work at resolving everything. It should be done in a couple of days and they seem confident they've got everything sorted. Here's hoping.

XLR8R
12-12-06, 11:40 AM
Man, I feel for you. I have had it happen on all sorts of vehicles, so don't be too down on Cadillac, they are not alone. Everything from My Land Rover to my 2001 Dodge ram 4x4 has had some weird issue, which, btw, was in the delaer getting repaired 37 times in a year and a half. Dodge wouldn't lemon law it, but the dealer presented me with a better equipped 2002 for $1000. Point is, sometimes stuff happens. Usually it gets worked out and things will be fine, but every now and then, and not that often when you consider production numbers, something turns citrus.
I hope it all gets better, and you can enjoy it as you should! :)

07slade
12-12-06, 09:27 PM
DAMN!!!....So many issues, I've never seen Such a Huge amount of problems on a new truck, yeah I know its the first year thing, but My husband has a Charger R/t and we got it about....Two weeks after it came out and NO problems accept a groaning noise which turned out to be a lack of power steering Fluid, But At the Same Time My brother In-Law Bought a 300C and it was the first one in NY and a week after he got it both back windows didn't work and neither did the power mirrors, No doubt I love driving the Charger, but the visibility isn't GREAT and the interior quality is CRAP, But I drive by the Land Rover Dealer ALot And I'm so VERY tempted to go test drive a RR sport, But at Almost 90k Its not happening..

EXTadic
12-13-06, 11:32 AM
I would suggest taking it to your local mall on any evening and park it in some out of the way(dark) parking space. If you're in there long enough your problems will magically dissapear. Just make sure your insurance is paid current

DLH
12-13-06, 11:39 AM
DAMN!!!....So many issues, I've never seen Such a Huge amount of problems on a new truck, yeah I know its the first year thing, but My husband has a Charger R/t and we got it about....Two weeks after it came out and NO problems accept a groaning noise which turned out to be a lack of power steering Fluid, But At the Same Time My brother In-Law Bought a 300C and it was the first one in NY and a week after he got it both back windows didn't work and neither did the power mirrors, No doubt I love driving the Charger, but the visibility isn't GREAT and the interior quality is CRAP, But I drive by the Land Rover Dealer ALot And I'm so VERY tempted to go test drive a RR sport, But at Almost 90k Its not happening..

I drove the RR yesterday and did not like it one bit. It fely like an unfriendly squared off school bus. Just way to stiff for me. Also, felt less headroom than the lade. Truth be told I took the seats out of my 03 Tahoe last night and drove it up the street and felt that truck seems better built than the 07 Escalade and the RR. I may just pimp that out, cut off the top and drive it. That way I can compete with 'dem Costco runaways!..:alchi:

07slade
12-13-06, 02:27 PM
stop picking on me Its not my fault I drive FAST!, Wait did I almost run you over or what? give me some details on why your so afraid of the big black Lade' ?? (oops I rhymed). Well everyone has different taste In cars, which RR did u drive? I'm more into the sport one, because the other one starts at 77k and I don't like the back as much, but there is absolutely no way I would trade with some of the quality issues like electronic systems completely failing and just a bunch of BAD BAD stuff..

LLT
12-16-06, 06:06 PM
As an update, the dealer left me an e-mail yesterday saying he wants me to meet with his lead tech on Monday to drive another on the lot, compare and go over remaining issues such as what I believe to be a loud exhaust. I thought that meant they had fixed the heat, wind noise, mirror vibration, etc... and they were wanting to go over subjective "issues" - so I thought I'd check up on it today. I stopped by (dealership was closed) and took it out with the wife. Much to my dismay, the POS STILL has no heat, the mirror vibration is actually worse and the wind noise, while much better, is still apparent.

They've had it two weeks straight this time around (putting it, I believe, over the 30 days required under lemon law.) I'm not yet sure if they're waiting on parts (though they have 18 Escalades on the lot - they should be parting them out after two weeks of downtime) or they're unable to fix. Either way, I'm growing ill with this thing. If they ever get heat back into it, I think it might be getting dumped for an LS.

EXTadic
12-16-06, 06:15 PM
Tell me where you live. Leave the doors unlocked and the keys under the floormat. Don't call the cops till' morning. Your problems are over.
Merry Christmas
love Santa

LLT
12-16-06, 08:03 PM
LOL Thanks, EXTadic. :D

caddycruiser
12-17-06, 11:03 AM
Well, if anything, the heat issue should definately be lemon worthy if it's "repaired" multiple times with no success. Other than that, if it's been at the dealer for some time and they still can't seem to accomplish much of anything fix-wise, you definately have a case to argue.

I think the exhaust thing is purely subjective--the way it sounds is just a personal thing you should have either liked or disliked on the first test drive--and that's not really a "problem", per say.

All the other things are, for sure, though. No car should have non-working heat or vibrations, at any price, let alone in the $70k range.

IMMensaMind
12-17-06, 07:46 PM
WOW!---I feel bad now because I started that thread and thus far have encountered no issues. However, having read what others stated I started that thread to ponder what could be. I feel bad for your experience and this is what kept me awake. Based on all that you've listed I would say you are possibly just short of the lade owner whose motor blew up. I drove by the RR dealership today and wondered if I had made the right decision. However, as I stated in that same thread they all have issues----RR, Mercedes, Lexus and Audi. I'm going to park my other cars and drive the wheels off my '07. If problems arrise I will post here in support of your "Lemon" question.

Thanks goodness I leased! Short term!

In support of your psyche regarding if you made the correct decision:

I have a 2006 Range Rover Sport Supercharged - and the damn thing just stranded me. I'm guessing failed fuel pump. I look on Range Rovers.net, and sure enough, defective fuel pumps are an issue on RRS S/C. Damn. Did I make the right decision? lol They all have issues.

EXTadic
12-17-06, 09:35 PM
In support of your psyche regarding if you made the correct decision:

I have a 2006 Range Rover Sport Supercharged - and the damn thing just stranded me. I'm guessing failed fuel pump. I look on Range Rovers.net, and sure enough, defective fuel pumps are an issue on RRS S/C. Damn. Did I make the right decision? lol They all have issues.

I'm sure there are many RRS s/c customizers on the net that have already redesigned and installed a replacement fuel pump for your truck. Do some reseach to eliminate the bad apple from the equation. factory isn't always best.

LLT
12-20-06, 09:37 PM
I've been backing and defending my dealer since day 1, but I'm past the point of being angry with manufacturer defects and rather, angry at the dealer for the incompetence of the techs. They've had it 2.5 weeks now and thus far, they've corrected a couple of issues, but the big one (no heat) still remains unresolved!

They just yesterday (finally and without explanation as to delay) ordered a new "HVAC control head", installed it and now there's heat on the driver's side, but the passenger's side is ice cold! (Inititially, there was heat on passenger's side, none on driver's... then after they unleashed the Tech 2 upon it, there was no heat at all - thus I'm guessing they fried it during reflash) They said they spent the day on the phone with TAC and are working on a solution.

They also scratched the chrome trim piece on the hood and during windshield replacement (defect in glass) they put a gouge in the windshield. To their credit, they ordered yet another new windshield and a replacement piece for the hood, so they are correcting it. Nonetheless, I have to wonder why the hell it takes 2.5 weeks to create heat. Perhaps I should set it on fire to jumpstart the process. :)

EXTadic
12-20-06, 09:49 PM
Have you consulted and attorney who specializes in lemon law advocacy?
If not, that should be your first call of the morning.

LLT
12-20-06, 11:22 PM
I haven't, but unfortunately, you waive your right to immediate litigation when using the GMS (GM employee) discount. I can, however, go through the "impartial" arbitration service. I'd have to go through that wondrous SNAFU of a system first.

After speaking to a few other dealers, I'm not convinced the vehicle is a lemon afterall - the dealer is! Which is a shame - I've had a very good relationship with them, I just think their "factory trained and certified" techs haven't had a lot of experience with this new system.

EXTadic
12-20-06, 11:51 PM
Are you saying you're a GM employee? Or you bought it with GM's emlployee dicount program. If it's the latter, Sounds a bit under handed and suspicious that GM would have you sign away your rights to get their discount.Wouldn't you say?

LLT
12-20-06, 11:58 PM
I bought it under the GM employee discount program - I'm not an employee myself. It is a bit underhanded and to be honest, I didn't know about it until I told the dealer I was thinking of just trading it off. They suggested I contact GM for "permission" as it's in the fine print of the discount program that I must retain ownership for six months. I looked up the fine print and verified, along with the litigation clause.

Just keeps getting better. :D

I think I may just go get it and take it to another dealer if they haven't resolved it by the holidays....... or send you a christmas card with a treasure map to the keys.

EXTadic
12-21-06, 12:05 AM
I bought it under the GM employee discount program - I'm not an employee myself. It is a bit underhanded and to be honest, I didn't know about it until I told the dealer I was thinking of just trading it off. They suggested I contact GM for "permission" as it's in the fine print of the discount program that I must retain ownership for six months. I looked up the fine print and verified, along with the litigation clause.

Just keeps getting better. :D

I think I may just go get it and take it to another dealer if they haven't resolved it by the holidays....... or send you a christmas card with a treasure map to the keys.

My offer still stands....That motor/trans would be an ideal combo for my Nomad......:cool2:

yourgmsolutions
12-21-06, 12:33 AM
I've been backing and defending my dealer since day 1, but I'm past the point of being angry with manufacturer defects and rather, angry at the dealer for the incompetence of the techs. They've had it 2.5 weeks now and thus far, they've corrected a couple of issues, but the big one (no heat) still remains unresolved!

They also scratched the chrome trim piece on the hood and during windshield replacement (defect in glass) they put a gouge in the windshield. To their credit, they ordered yet another new windshield and a replacement piece for the hood, so they are correcting it. Nonetheless, I have to wonder why the hell it takes 2.5 weeks to create heat. Perhaps I should set it on fire to jumpstart the process. :)

sounds so familiar.
I'm having a big battle with one of the GMC dealer. true story
month and a half ago I installed factory original Nav Radio into 2007 Yukon
20 min install, basicaly plug and play.anyway, after vehicle been towed twice to the dealer customer basicaly refused to drive that car. so dealer had to buy this car back and gave him a new one.
and now they called me up and told me it's my fault. so i go back to the dealer, and ask them to show me or explain what exactly i did. so their answer was "we don't know yet, but we are sure it's you" and of course they refused to pay me for that job that i did. so month go by, and they still can't fix it. they called TAC/replaced BCM/ECM/TCM,.....vehicle still have a problems. then they called me back and said that I have to buy that vehicle, because it's all my fault. but still can't tell me what i've done.
GM rep came over and told dealer they are not buying this vehicle back either
so, I towed this Yukon to My cadillac dealer. took their technitian may be 3 hours, and he founded the problem and fixed it. now it's getting funnier. GM refuses to pay for this repair under warranty, because according to GM this paticular Cadillac Dealer, can't perform warranty work on GMC's because another GMC dealer across the street from them.now dealer that i towed that Yukon from is almost 90 miles away and they refused to pay me for towing and charges from cadillac dealer.their argument is this : it was your idea to tow it so far, and our techs eventualy would figure it out too.
hmm. for month and a half they couldn't, what makes them think that they could.
I feel very sorry for people who take their vehicles for repair to that dealer.
and of course I'm filling court papers right now. I'm very confident that I'll win this case, ( I have moutain of documents/repair orders/etc),but this fact that I had to deal with bunch of idiots, makes me so angry.
anyway, I'm filing court papers

LLT
12-21-06, 01:00 AM
Geez, Mark - I hope that works out... what a mess! I'm not an attorney, but I'd definitely suggest a disclaimer of warranty for work you do for dealers. I've seen so many that will cave to their principles at the expense of their customers and vendors alike so as to ensure they keep GM happy. I finally told my dealer "there's only a few components to this system - two controllers, actuators and a module... the actuators have been ruled out, you've had the vehicle for 2.5 weeks and have gotten nowhere, just replace the remaining two parts!" Their response is: "If we do and they're not faulty, GM will not reimburse." Fair enough. NOT MY PROBLEM, but fair enough!

Every service manager I've ever talked to has said that techs hate warranty work. They get paid on billable hour - that rate is much lower on warranty repair, so the deck is stacked against you as soon as you get there. What's more, there's "GM certified" techs that aren't certified at all BY GM and shouldn't be working for Pep Boys, much less a franchised dealership.

Don't misunderstand - there are great techs out there (ewill3rd on this forum, for example, really seems to know what he's talking about) - I just have to believe that it takes three other techs frying your vehicle before you get to a senior tech.

Even then, my dealer's "lead technician" finally got to the vehicle and has been working on the HVAC issue to no avail. I still maintain the damn system cannot possibly be that complicated. Of course, I guess it's easier to claim ignorance than get into process of elimination running the risk GM might not foot the bill.

Infuriating.

Hope it works out, Mark - give 'em hell!

yourgmsolutions
12-21-06, 01:31 AM
biggest problem is that not many installers/technitions can't trouble shoot the problems, hard to find this dayssomeone knowlegeble.
example, alarm guys that install alarms at the dealerships. they put them in in 15 min and talk shit to me every day, but when there is a problem with it, first thing they say, Oh, we need to replace module, but they never think, why did that module go bad, what was the reason, and sure enough customer comes back again and very pissed.
samething with car mechanics (lots of them). Oh we could not duplicate this proble, or we'll just go ahead replace this and that, but never ask a customer about more details, when and how it happened,what was going on prior to the problem,or what were you doing before this or that happened.
trouble shooting is like Art.
like that particular mechanic is an old fart that keep telling me that he was working on the cars before i was born. sure, may be. but I personaly don't give a crap. there were no car computers on the cars in sixtees. plus those kind of techs are the worst, because they don't want to admit the fact that 2007 escalade is not the same as 1967 camaro.

2caddyjoe
12-21-06, 08:10 PM
Hell I'd mush rather work on my 68 camaro than any computer controlled car. I'm dreding the day I have to dig into my 06 Escalade like I've done on my other cars.

AWDTSi
12-22-06, 10:54 AM
Sorry to hear about all the kaos you are having with the vehicle.

That's why I don't buy a new model in it's first year if it is a major redesign. Always way too many things they have yet to work out. Plus the prices always seem to be higher the first year a model is out...

LLT
12-22-06, 02:32 PM
Well, good news... I got it back today - they replaced the chrome piece, ordered a new windshield and repaired the small areas that were damaged. The HVAC seems to be working and all other other issues seem to be resolved. Here's hoping - looks good so far! :D

By the way - a complete reprogram REALLY made this thing drive like a new vehicle (which is great, since it is :)) If you have transmission roughness, hesitation or otherwise - it might not be a bad idea to see your dealer.

LLT
12-22-06, 11:08 PM
Spoke too soon... heat went out again!

LLT
12-24-06, 03:30 AM
Weird... on a hunch, I pulled the battery cable for 20 mins, went through the re-learn and much to my surprise, the heat now works... on all sides! I'm hoping the dealer is able to make sense of it... I sure can't. Unless, the car simply needed a reboot. :)

AWF_AXIS
12-24-06, 11:05 AM
I had to do that once as well, during the summer. Here in Tahoe, we get down to freezing in the evening, even during 80 degree days. Anyway, the computer caught a 32 degree reading one morning, and refused to allow the air conditioning to work. In fact, the entire HVAC system shut down.

I removed the battery source for a few minutes, and that solved the problem. However, Caddy had a recall on the books for the HVAC. During a service visit, I had it reprogrammed, and no more troubles.

Dave

Uria702
12-24-06, 12:34 PM
lol the dealer is not gonna change shit my man, i have had over 100 repairs since i got my truck in july of 04, GM is no help and the dealers are no help, 3 transmission breakdowns and they still wont take it back

LLT
12-28-06, 02:03 AM
As yet another update... the heat still works, however, when I was backing out of a parking spot, I put it into "D" and it said "manual shift" -- I confirmed, obviously, that I hadn't actually put it into "M" and I hadn't. I moved it up a gear (which should have been neutral) and it went to reverse! Backup camera activated and all, but the vehicle wouldn't move. I put it back down one into drive and it once again said "manual shift 1" - I put it in "M" and it said the same thing.

I drove for a while, manually shifting... and then I stopped for fuel. After restarting, the transmission appeared to be working properly again. When accelerating though, the green light under the "D" either goes out entirely or flickers randomly.

This thing is possessed - at best! Serious computer issues.

alpinewhite325i
01-01-07, 10:51 AM
you've got to be kidding??

it just keeps getting better.

sorry for your problems...i would unload this joke as quickly as possible.

good luck.

LLT
01-01-07, 11:09 AM
I wish I were. :)

Apparently they ordered a bunch of new parts, including a transmission something-or-other module. The cause of the HVAC issue is/was "hvac module software lockup" - replacing that module apparently didn't help. There's still squealing at cold idle. GM knows of the issue and have provided a case number to the dealer, but they have no fix. $70k car that screeches. The thing is simply doomed.

On another note, they let me take out another '07 ESV to compare and the exaust was much quieter (still not super quiet of course, but much quieter) - the tech insists there's nothing wrong with mine. I disagree, but it seems like a losing battle.