: Zddp



Ranger
12-08-06, 07:10 PM
There is an article in this months Car Craft magazine about breaking in a new cam. This magazine is geared towards the hot rodder but they mentioned some interesting things I thought you guys would be interested in seeing. I won't go into the pros & cons of ZDDP as it has been well discussed.

ZINC LEVELS IN MOTOR OIL

YEAR API PPM
1996 SH 1,300
2001 SJ 1,100
2005 SM 870
2006 Shell Rotella (Diesel) 1,400
2006 Q Racing 1,960
2006 Joe Gibbs Racing XP-4 2,800


OILS WITH HIGHER ZDDP LEVELS

Castrol Tection Extra 15W40
Chevron Delo 400 15W40
Mobil Delvac 1300 15W40
Shell Rotella T 15W40
Quacker State Q Racing 0W-5, 15W50, 17.5W35
Joe Gibbs RAcing MicroZol 0W-20, 10W30

dp102288
12-08-06, 08:32 PM
Had to do some reading on Wikipedia on Zddp, but very interesting and good info you posted! :thumbsup:

dkozloski
12-08-06, 08:59 PM
There is an article in this months Car Craft magazine about breaking in a new cam. This magazine is geared towards the hot rodder but they mentioned some interesting things I thought you guys would be interested in seeing. I won't go into the pros & cons of ZDDP as it has been well discussed.

ZINC LEVELS IN MOTOR OIL

YEAR API PPM
1996 SH 1,300
2001 SJ 1,100
2005 SM 870
2006 Shell Rotella (Diesel) 1,400
2006 Q Racing 1,960
2006 Joe Gibbs Racing XP-4 2,800


OILS WITH HIGHER ZDDP LEVELS

Castrol Tection Extra 15W40
Chevron Delo 400 15W40
Mobil Delvac 1300 15W40
Shell Rotella T 15W40
Quacker State Q Racing 0W-5, 15W50, 17.5W35
Joe Gibbs RAcing MicroZol 0W-20, 10W30

I'm under the impression that motor oils including Rotella have had the levels of ZDP drastically reduced to comply with newer federal law. I think there is a thread in this forum on the subject.

caddydaddy
12-09-06, 06:55 PM
I saw that article as well, it arrived today. They recommended the diesel oil for engines with flat tappet lifters and cams.

Submariner409
12-10-06, 02:09 PM
Pennzoil markets a line of diesel/gasoline oils under the marine and LongLife labels. They come in various multigrades and contain more anti-wear additives than straight "passenger car" products. Shell (Pennzoil, Quaker State) Rotella products were originally marine oriented, I believe. The Car Craft article also mentions some "do's and dont's" for molybdenum disulfide oils and greases.....

mtflight
12-11-06, 11:48 PM
Had to do some reading on Wikipedia on Zddp, but very interesting and good info you posted! :thumbsup:

One of the N* design engineers recommends Delvac or Rotella for the 1993-99 Northstar due to the flat tappets--which eat up the zinc very quickly;to prevent wear.

Due to evidence pointing to shortened catalytic converter lifespan, today's oils have less ZDDP (ZDP). Today's newer engines (2000+ Northstar) have a different design that has less friction and requires less ZDP.

I found Rotella 10W30 at O-Reillys.

JohnnyO
12-20-06, 07:46 PM
Since diesels don't have catalytic convertors, some newer ones have them but they're somewhat different, the ZDDP is not important. There is also a Shell Rotella Synthetic 5w-40. I don't know offhand what the ZDDP content is but it should be better than regular oil since it's diesel-rated. Rotella Syn is common stuff and only costs about $13 a gallon which is a pretty good deal. 10w-30 diesel oils are out there but a little tough to find. People with older classic cars, diesel oils is what they should be running now.

dp102288
12-20-06, 09:37 PM
^^ :hmm: I would be a little apprehensive about running diesel in a gasoline car. I have no facts or opinions as to why not, but it seems risky to me. Is it really safe?

davesdeville
12-20-06, 10:18 PM
Yes it's safe, and my 75 has been running Delo for the past year or two now. It's not good for cats but I'll gladly replace a cat 10 times before I replace a motor.

peteski
12-21-06, 02:01 AM
For a zillionth time: these "Diesel" Heavy Duty oils aren't just for Diesel engines. Read the fineprint on the bottle. They are for any heavily used engine (like in fleet cars or taxis or trucks). Gasoline or Diesel.

Peteski

mtflight
12-21-06, 09:33 AM
^^ :hmm: I would be a little apprehensive about running diesel in a gasoline car. I have no facts or opinions as to why not, but it seems risky to me. Is it really safe?


It goes in the engine, not the gas tank. I can see the apprehension in that putting gasoline in a diesel and diesel in a gasoline engine would have consequences. But this is just oil, with a lot of ZDDP. Actually in terms of ZDDP concentration, you can see your car was designed for that much ZDDP (the oils at the time it was built had it).

So in essence, your car (our cars) are not designed for today's oils.

The alternative is to use whatever oil you currently use and mix it with a bottle of GM assembly oil (the name escapes me) which is loaded with ZDDP, you can buy it at any gm parts counter. It's quite expensive, from what I hear.

I personally have been using Rotella 10W-30 for at least 6 months. And no you can't feel any difference other than knowing your engine is not wearing as fast as it would be otherwise.

It may be bad for the cat, but the concentration of ZDDP in the diesel oil is what the automotive oils of the time had when many of our cars were built. Cutting back on it could be one way to get rid of "old cars" on the streets eventually.

dp102288
12-21-06, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the info from the above posters. A oil brand change might be in order for me...hopefully Rotella 10w-30 won't be too much more over the stuff I use now.

AlBundy
12-21-06, 03:52 PM
mtflight, I take it if you have an admission test in the next 2 or 3 months wouldn't it be better if you laid off the Rotella untill after the test?

mtflight
12-21-06, 05:19 PM
I'm not sure if an emissions test would fail. I doubt it since they don't use a sniffer but rather they just look for codes thrown by the OBD, which is by design an emissions monitoring system.

The ZDDP concentrations in Rotella are just slightly higher than those of the mid 90s when my car was built. The Cat was then warrantied for 10 years or 100000. A new high flow cat is about $100 so when there's a problem with the emissions system (if there ever is), I'll gladly replace it.

GreenMachine
12-21-06, 06:13 PM
What about "High Mileage" oils? Anyone ever look at the labels on them to see if they contain more of what the Northstar likes?

Also how much more do these high ZDDP engine oils cost?

dp102288
12-21-06, 08:26 PM
if they contain more of what the Northstar likes?

Good question. What does the Northstar like in its oil? Is Zddp the only additive that we should aim to provide more of, or should we look at the levels of some other stuff?

davesdeville
12-21-06, 08:37 PM
The alternative is to use whatever oil you currently use and mix it with a bottle of GM assembly oil (the name escapes me) which is loaded with ZDDP, you can buy it at any gm parts counter. It's quite expensive, from what I hear.

http://500caddy.us/Random/eos.jpg

mtflight
12-21-06, 11:11 PM
http://500caddy.us/Random/eos.jpg


Correctomundo. GM E.O.S., part number 1052367

GreenMachine
12-22-06, 01:19 AM
I found the part number for a 10oz bottle of "GM Lifter Pre-lube" 12345501

MonzaRacer
12-23-06, 11:17 PM
OK as we sit here let me put out the name of the zinc products that is in certain oils is called zinc dithiosulfate regardless of any moniker slapped on it and as notice from a technician it doesnt not contaminate cats for the most part unless you have an oil consumption problem.
Now as I sit here and read cretain things here I see that for the most part proper information does not get given out as freely as it should.
OK as for one of my favorite oils Shell Rotella T is and always has been an heavy duty/severe duty oil and was developed by and large for heavy equipment use BUT will in now way hurt nor damage an engine EXCEPT if you live in extreme lower climates then you need to take some extra precausions during warm up.
Now as for this particular components levels to be reduced doesnt mean its gone just the level has been adjusted in the chemistry of oils and other ,more environmentaly friendly additives have been developed and implememted.
So today we have SAE ratings and they still have to be met by the oils. Remember oils doesnt wear out it simply has its additives depleted and it get contaminated and the base oil by and large will NEVER lubricate your engine nor even your push mower for any period of time with out damage.
So if we see a reduction of cheap (yet environmentaly unfriendly ,either in part or in production) antiwear additives so now we start seeing "blends" part base petroleum part synthetic (read this as a labratory engineered lubricant with specific lubricating/antiwear properties) and newer more acceptable additives. And we see these more and more and because they do meet EPE guidelines and the older oild dont then you are going to see conventional oils go away period (you still have time but its the current wave).
In shop I work at we use Kendal (ConnocoPhillips) products and we only install Synthetic blend oil now or synthetic or high mileage oils as our Kedal supplier has discontinued carying the older oils.
Now as for me I use the Kendal 5w40 full synthetic and love it. I also have race engines running very high rpms with 15W40 or 30W Shell which for the most part is my favorite oil. I do have a few super extreme engine we run Royal Purple in too.
As a tech and a machinist too(a friend has a shop I get to use some and he lets me do my own work for the most part) and after seeing some of the things I have seen in the last 15 yrs if you buy ANY properly graded (for your car) oil and change it regularly you will see above average protection and sufficient protection unless you just plain spray a 250 shot of NOS at every stop light.
I just tore down my bosses 170K4.3 out of his S10 and it spun a rod and we have concluded it wasnt from any lubrication problem it was from bearing shell fatigue and rod bolt stretch (he always drive like his hair is on fire) .
Now if he hadnt been such a lead foot it probably would have went over 200k with most of its life on Kendal 10W30.
Every journal was in perfect shape except for the spun rod and it had negligable in the cylinder(it measures at a .010 over bore but if we do fix it it will most likely get a set of forged 030 flat tops I found) and its going to get a set of ARP blolts.
All for the talk about this additive or that additive is fruitless if you change your oils every 3000 to 4000 and maintain the coolingsystem with flushes and thermostats changes(hey they do wear ) and regardless of your thoughts ,as a professional technician I HATE DexCool and will not install it in ANY car. Check other posts on my observations and information I relate about that garbage as I have seen more problems from it than anything else I have ever seen poured into a cooling system.
Not to get off topic but G-05 is still EG coolant and has no ill side effects to date and I use it exclusivley as my Ext. Life choice.
Now in my professional opinion and the fact I have an 87 LG9 350 that I bought as a low mileage take out that was all standard, got new rings and rod brgs and it was removed last July due to running problems (bad valve stem seals and a timing chain big enough to make 2 out of ,,to say theleast it was SHOT) and well we decided to tear it doen and look at it and decide if I am goint to build it for my Monza or use the all forged 283 I have. it has a fairly well documented 258k on it from 2 different bodies and has had either Shell Rotella T in it (first 50k) then Mobil ! synthetic/Kendal Synthetic in it for the restof the time nad I sometimes stretched the changes to 10k plus due to limited funds and so far I think its straight enough to hone with torque plate and run some forged pistons in (as they can be ran looser) and still be on the tight side and have no shadows in the hone job. The pistons I have say run between 003 and 0035 as a mid point and more for NOS and this engine on its worst cylinder has almost 002 wear.
So as the design of your N* is higher on the evolution scale(but the old style Chevy is still a solid design as its been around since 1954) and hence greater design specs.
So if your N* cant use current technology oils, tested and approved by SAE, then it wont live long.
Trust me, if you use proper spec oil with the proper SAE rating you folks will have no problems. Now if you do have a wear problem then it should be something that should be addressed in the redesign of the replacement parts.
Now as for the EOS from GM yes it is a good additive and if it give you the warm tinggly feeling then by all means use it. And GM can never give you any static about using it during a warranty period.
Now the Lifter prelube, which I hadnt seen in years, is only used at start up and in the start up oil in a new engine. I generally run the first batch of oil for around 500 miles but change the filters several time during the break in.
AS for moly lube I really like to use it on flat tappet cams especially in high spring preasure race engines, but it clogs filters ,hence the many filter changes.
Honestly if you want to protect your engine in my opinion use a high quality synthetic oil and change it regularly.
OH and if you read the back of the Quaker State bottles you will find that in this generation of QS ownership(its a name sold off every 5 to 10 yrs and has been owned by Penzoil,Ashland (Valvoline),Phillips66(before the join with Connoco),Texaco, and other oil companies) is SOPUS (Shell Oil Products US ) and before that it was owned/used/leased by Penzoil.
I have seen engine that people hardly ever changed oil simply kept it topped up and upon teardown ,they looked almost as good as my 350.
Dont get me wrong using the Empire State oil aint gonna cut it but heck even Tech2000 from WalMart was supplied from the QS mass distributorship andas far as I have knowledge of it still is either from there or Ashland (as they used to provide it before QS took it over).It still meets SAE spec and is safe to use. The different brands are just for that fuzzy warm feeling of the user.
I know of a Caddy owner that has over 180 K and she was a devout user of the "Quick Lubes" till she started coming to my shop. Her 4.6 sounds great and the car still looks like new(I should have got a pick to post as you all would have loved it but I forgotI had my camera in my jacket).
Good luck
Lee Abel

GreenMachine
12-24-06, 12:35 AM
I'm glad to hear you put the seal of approval on the Kendall Synthetic blend, mine currently is running on 5w-30. My consumption with it however is a bit higher than I would like and was considering the high mileage version to curb that, plus I've noticed small drops from time to time on the driveway. I'm not really sure if its just a gimmick or its actually something I should look into (at the very least it would have a stronger additive pack, might be a bit thicker to stop the nuisance leaks. At the shop its only a 3 or 4 bucks difference over standard blend.

Interesting enough the engine seems to have stopped consuming it (I think, I may have just drove less) while its at just below the add line.