: Dex-cool?



bunker570
12-07-06, 07:15 PM
I have brought two Devilles in the last three months. Have been reading a lot of things in this forum. Has anyone read about all the lawsuits over DEX-COOL? Google it. I guess the conventional wisdom is if you have it stick with it.

JimD
12-07-06, 07:46 PM
It is the deep pocket theory. When owners neglect / ignore maintanence schedules and something breaks, the owner is obligated to find someone else at fault.

The trick is to find the deepest pockets (Texaco / GM) hoping that they (Texaco / GM) will find it less expensive to pay damages rather than defend a lawsuit.

No matter the outcome at court, the owner at fault has little or no cost of litigation if he can find a law firm to represent him on a contingency basis.

The issue is not Dexcool. The issue is blame shifting.

codewize
12-07-06, 08:19 PM
Dex-Cool is fine. Follow the maintenance schedule outlined in the owners manual.

Dex-Cool has far longer life and far less corrosive properties. For best results ALWAYS mix you coolant with DISTILLED water not tap water.

Ranger
12-07-06, 08:38 PM
Green silicated coolant plates the water jacket with silicates. Dex does not. On a cast iron engine (which is my understanding that most of the litigants are), if the coolant gets low, air gets in the system and the iron oxidizes in an unplated Dex cooled engine. When the RPMs go up, coolant sloshes through the system and washes the oxidation through the system where it settles in the low spots and causes clogged heaters and radiator and overheating. Same engine with green coolant would have the water jacket plated and will not oxidize even though it is low and not properly maintained. It would seem as though the green is better, but it must be changed at least twice as often and the silicates wear the water pump shaft seals. Use Dex without fear.

codewize
12-07-06, 10:57 PM
Interesting Ranger. i wasn't up on that. I thought it was the other way with the oxidation. My apologies.

dp102288
12-08-06, 08:01 AM
Ranger good comparison between the green stuff and Dex-Cool. Didn't know that. :thumbsup:

Murphyg
12-08-06, 05:05 PM
Sue, Sue, Sue,
The North American way to freedom 55

Greer/Dallas
12-08-06, 05:24 PM
I was told this 4 yrs. ago, to change to the orange coolant instead of the green, because of what it done to the radiators. I was also told to use cell phones with the green coolant only if absolutely necessary cause the radio waves created some form of dialectic corrosion between the aluminum cells in the radiator and will cause leaks where the plastic ends are pinched together. I don't know how true it is, but I changed to the orange and have had no probs. since. This info. came from a radiator store clerk/mechanic so, take it for what it's worth to you.

codewize
12-08-06, 06:07 PM
Now we're it's getting weird again. :bonkers:

And cell phones cause explosions at gas station too right?

Murphyg
12-08-06, 06:58 PM
Now we're it's getting weird again. :bonkers:

And cell phones cause explosions at gas station too right?

I know they cause explosions in my home.
When I get the bill that is LOL

dp102288
12-08-06, 08:30 PM
^^ :rofl:

I say the radiator "store clerk/mechanic" is crazy.

Greer/Dallas
12-08-06, 09:34 PM
Well either way it didn't matter to me, I needed the radiator cause mine leaked already. But hey when dealing with salesmen (no offence intended) there's no telling what you will hear, just shake my and say uh huh and keep going. Concerning the gas station thing, I have a friend when we jump on our bikes to go riding, if we stop to fuel up he will take his cell and turn it off. But there again it doesn't bother me either way, if it makes him feel safer, I say turn it off. Never heard about the distilled water in the radiator, only in the battery, but it does make sense.

Ranger
12-08-06, 09:58 PM
The distilled water is kind of a purist thing I think. Using tap water adds unwanted minerals such as iron, calcium, lime, chlorine etc. I don't think it would really cause any harm, but distilled is probably better. I used it for many years (as most of us probably have) before I learned otherwise from our old Guru, but who am I to argue with him. So I follow his advice and advise likewise. It has to be better than tap water.

100
12-08-06, 10:16 PM
I read somewhere, Dexcool is more accepting to be mixed with tap water. Green is not. Corrosion inhibitor in green degrades more when mixed with tap water.

Also, I read somewhere, Dexcool does NOT protect conventional (or old fashioned) copper+solder radiators. But for our systems, Dexcool is the best choice, that is what I came to conclude...

codewize
12-08-06, 10:47 PM
Your trying to avoid anything that will bond with metal or aluminum. Why would you intentionally add minerals the the coolant by using tap water? All that's going to do is clog up small passageways over time. Oh yeah and eat away at the head gasket material.

100
12-09-06, 01:13 AM
codewize,

If I sounded that I encouraged to use tap water, that was not what I meant. I just wanted to strengthen what Ranger said that:

> I don't think it would really cause any harm

and wanted to emphasize that Dexcool is better than silicate-stuff from this point (that better tolerates minerals in water).

But as Ranger said, pure water is the best to mix with.

dp102288
12-09-06, 07:38 AM
Tap water even sounds worse if you think about the heater core. Clogged heater core are a pain to fix in my view, and they all seem to go bad when it gets cold.

codewize
12-09-06, 07:43 AM
No no I didn't take it that way I was just strengthening the point :)


codewize,

If I sounded that I encouraged to use tap water, that was not what I meant. I just wanted to strengthen what Ranger said that:

> I don't think it would really cause any harm

and wanted to emphasize that Dexcool is better than silicate-stuff from this point (that better tolerates minerals in water).

But as Ranger said, pure water is the best to mix with.

bunker570
12-12-06, 05:43 PM
Will use the Dex-Cool. $10.49 a gallon.Do any of you know how to solve the headlights left on buzzer not working on the 96?

dp102288
12-12-06, 07:03 PM
What buzzer...did you post that in this thread? I can't find it.

bunker570
12-13-06, 03:52 PM
In another thread. But here it is. On 96 buzzer for headlights left on does not work, (twilight is in off position), and on 97 the "back seat" vent for rear heat I do not think works. So how does it work. On 96 it works fine.

jackal2000
12-13-06, 04:19 PM
i know that in the 60* community we have a problem with the lower intake manifold gasket. the original gaskets were notorious for leaking coolant (dex-cool) and mixing in the oil (bad news) so the theory was that dex-cool was eating through the gaskets when in fact it was poor gasket design.

need2caddy
12-16-06, 10:39 AM
Hello everyone, I recently bought a '99 Deville with 60,000 mi. After driving it for 3 weeks the check coolant level indicator came on. I filled the surge tank with green coolant 50/50 mixture. After a few short drives I smelled coolant burning every time I turned the engine off. Well on one drive the coolant temp went up to 245 degrees but than went back down. Well I took it to a mechanic and when he opened the surge tank he noticed gold flakes mixed in the coolant and informed me that stop leak was put in the car. Periodically the check coolant level indicator comes on. The only place that I saw a leak was in the surge tank but not alot just a some drops

Ranger
12-16-06, 04:48 PM
'99 came with orange Dex-Cool, not green coolant. Did you mix green & Dex, or was it filled with green when you bought it?

dp102288
12-16-06, 08:02 PM
:yeah: and Bars Leak is recommended for these cars. Is that what your mechanic found or something else.

MonzaRacer
12-17-06, 09:54 PM
OK as a technician I hate to see cars coming in with Dex in them.But before we get into why lets get some basic info out there.
OK while silcates are in green antifreeze they do not "plate" a component they stay suspended and are in fact a neutralizer for the galvanic reaction between dissimlar metals and a solution of 2 liquids. Most of what the silicatres do is kind of like a anti catalyst of sorts. if you have 2 dissimilar metals and a 2 component liquid you have a "chemical battery" so we must keep the ph neutral for as long as possible(ie till it gets flushed and filled) to acidic and it eats soft metals, it gets akaline and it eats the anode( I believe dont hold me to this completely but it either eats the anode or cathode) this is why the old time rad caps could be had with zinc balls hanging off of them to save the soft(re vulnerable parts) metal surfaces.The other componenet in green is phosphates fyi.and silicates do not cause seal problems this has since been attributed to core sand coming loose from the castings.another thing is that silicate work immediatly upon engine fill, no heat or circulation is needed except to purge air from systemand will continue immediatly if the coolant cavitates or corrosion is currently present.
Ok so lets get to Dexcool it is still Ethylene Glycol but uses a different technology to reduce/eliminate corrosion,,, it uses OAT, no not Quaker oats but Organic Acid Technology and uses sebacate and 2-EHA (2-ETHYLHEXANOIC ACID) both very stable and long lasting 2-EHA works better in hard water and helps protect as the coolant going lower PH or to the acid side.
As for the rust that was more a problem caused by poor cap design letting the system getting low, then gets topped up and the rust gets washed into the heat exchangers, as a tech been there and seen that. AS for the mid/late GM "sludge" was because Havoline messed up when they sent the coolant already mixed(it was supposed to be more controlable in quality this way,now GM mixes it with QC sensors the keep it 50/50.
Now lets get to why Dex-Cool is crap, PERIOD.
2-EHA is a Plastisizer, it makes plastic softer or harder ,hence the plastic gaskets/radiators/heatercore problems that most have seen.
This trashes plastic intakes, thermostat housings, gasket frames, and such.
This is what killed OAT tech coolants for other companies, Ford for instance only uses Extended life coolant (ie over 100k) in limited places.
But other companies are jumping on HOAT band wagon(HYBRID ORGANIC ACID TECHNOLOGY) (they did use a Dex-cool like coolant in the 99 Cougar V6)and this come under the G-05 moniker used by Ford, its low silicate(they dont like silicates as lazy people dont service thier cooling systems and the silcates chemical treatment washes away and then they sink) and no phosphates and uses instead benzoate.
Honda and toyota use sebacate exclusivly but add a dose of phosphates to do the quick corrosion protection for aluminum and to do recoats. also some coolants use borate but without silicates it can attack aluminum.
So I am going to list the coolants and recomendations to help all then end with my choices.
AMERICAN GREEN:A light -medium green with inhibitors that include silicates and phosphates.Rec service life 2/30,4/50,5/100
PRESTONE AMERICAN YELLOW GOLD: Some think it has a green cast to it but gold is the color of the dye .It also uses silicates and phosphates.
DexCool Orange: An OAT coolant that features sebacat and 2-EHA(crap) as primary inhibiters. Texaco Havoline,Prestone Extended Life and Zerex Extended Life make Dex apporved coolant. GMs only coolant and Honda and Toyota dont like them using it but its was deemed too expensive to use 2 different coolants.
JAPNAESE GREEN: Usually deeper green than American Green with inhibitors including phosphates but no silicates.Regular is 2/30 extended life is 5/100.
TOYOTA RED: Same AS JAP. GREEN but miss called as Dexcool in Pontiac Vibe.
TOY PINK&HONDA DEEP GREEN EXT. LIFE: New Japanese Ext life coolant , uses phosphates and sebacate, no silicates and other inhibitors.
VW/AUDI PINK: Version used in US imports oses OAT (sebacate) but some european use the dex type mix depending on the supplier.
EUROPEAN /FORD YELLOW: Uses low dose silicates no phosphatesand sebacate plus benzoate. Marketed in US as G-05.
CHRYSLER GROUP:Dyed orange but it G-05
KOREAN BLUE:G-05
BROWN: well a mix or just plain crude or with sealers.
Ok as a tech I hate DexCool and all of its problems, I have afriend who had a 4x4 s10 that as soon as he bought it we flushed it and put in plain old green antifreeze and he drove it for a paper route for 4 yrs and well over 200k miles. He serviced it every year and changed t-stats every year. The truck is still running and they finally just put a new water pump on it with almost 300k.
If you want EXt life coolant then use G-05, it works and cant be told with simple test from Dex except from color.
If you want simple and efective you can use green and simply service your system regualrly.
It wont hurt your pump, or your gaskets and it works and has for decades(and has been improved and is still being improved to date)
Heck I have found better coolant from Evan Coolong and it doesnt corrode and it cools even better than EG/water. It is NPG+ or NPG/R . The NPG stands for Non-Aqueous Propylene Glycol and has a atmospheric preasure boiling point of 375 and doesnt require a high preasure cap and has no water in it. Expensive but it has better cooling properties with the aluminum wide tube rads as recommended by them.
And still had -40 F freeze point.
Hope you all got something from this and understand why I dislike DexCool, its a bad design but GM bought its rights for longtime so GM owners are stuck till warranty is up (supposedly but actually unless the cooling system has a corrosion problem it wont affect your warranty.
Besides it only has to stay in for the 3/36 after that it can be changed and SHOULD BE ANYWAY.
OH and if you service the Dex every year or everyother year it still attacks plastic but wont have any crude buildup. It was implemented by GM for the lazy people in my opinion..
Lee Abel
ASE MASTER TECH
ASE L1 TECH
Oh and glad to be here as I am looking at adapting a Caddy based engine(ie Northstar) to some project cars for other people. And I hope to be able to help people if they need it.

Ranger
12-17-06, 10:21 PM
Ok, now I am really getting confused. We had a GM powertrain engineer that used to post here. Worked on the Northstar development. Very knowledgable and well respected. He definately said that the cooling systems got plated with silicates and that is why once you go green, you have to stay green. He had nothing but good to say about Dex. Preaching the party line? Could be I suppose, he never said anything bad about GM, but never held back if a dealer was pulling something shady. Most of use have taken his advice and stuck with Dex. I can say that I have never had any problems. 107K on my '97 Deville when I sold it. 135K on my wifes '96 Bonneville and counting, FWIW. My '03 DHS and my daughters '02 SLS are too new and low in miles to count.

dkozloski
12-17-06, 11:02 PM
Ok, now I am really getting confused. We had a GM powertrain engineer that used to post here. Worked on the Northstar development. Very knowledgable and well respected. He definately said that the cooling systems got plated with silicates and that is why once you go green, you have to stay green. He had nothing but good to say about Dex. Preaching the party line? Could be I suppose, he never said anything bad about GM, but never held back if a dealer was pulling something shady. Most of use have taken his advice and stuck with Dex. I can say that I have never had any problems. 107K on my '97 Deville when I sold it. 135K on my wifes '96 Bonneville and counting, FWIW. My '03 DHS and my daughters '02 SLS are too new and low in miles to count.
Bbob was the engineer that developed the Northstar cooling system design. He wrote magazine articles, gave presentations at SAE meetings and was very highly regarded by his peers. He did consulting work for people trying to use the Northstar in aircraft. I'd take his word on just about any aspect of Northstar cooling systems until somebody could show me the vailidated data proving otherwise. There was nothing he asserted that he couldn't back up with rock solid, proven, scientifically verified engineering data. Anybody that claims he was wrong is going to have to prove it and I don't think they can. Where the naysayers start to stick their foot in their mouth is when they start assigning ulterior motives to GM positions on engineering matters. That is tatamount to attacking an engineer's integrity and "Them's Fightin' Words". On top of that he risked his position with GM to come here and clear up some issues about some statements made by front office GM executives and suffered for it. He always told us the truth, even when he knew he would pay the concequences. Long Live Bbob!

MonzaRacer
12-17-06, 11:14 PM
OK I can understand the problem with listening to a tech who works on the stuff an engineer designed years ago then moved on to another briliant invention/adaptation.
I used to brag on Dex but when I see 3.1/3.4 GM engines comeing in to have coolant leaks from the intakes and seeing the gaskets coming out in pieces.
I am not saying it wont work nor will it actually hurt (unless a plastic framed gasket leakes internally) anything.
I am just saying I have replaced dozens of S10,jbody,nbodyetc heater cores with Dexsludge in them. GM got a bad bad load of Dex from Texaco and did so till the contract ended. what happens is while a stronger mix of Yellow/Green EG antifreeze will go as strong a mix as 69.3 percent and will perform down to something like 70 below (?) I forget but it goes real low.
BUT if you try this with Dex you get that yucky whitish/pinkish sludge up around the cap/rad neck.
Also I see many radiators and other "plastic" parts with coolant related destruction. 2.4 Twin Cam plastic inlet on DS side of head will start leaking when the lip holding the oring selfdestructs. Also 3.8 Buicks have intake issues (Motormite Help line has many many plastic intakes for replacements) and the biggest culprit was Dexcool.
My mother has a 94 Olds 98 and hasnt lost the intake (yet) but I figure it will burn through from EGR soon at 130k but if it had dex it would have been on its second or 3rd intake as my buddies moms car which still runs dexcool as she was given horror stories from GM dealer about switching.
Now my profesional opinion if you have ANY plastic in your cooling system and dont want YELLOW/GREEN in it but want EXt life use G-05 it only changes one component and wont hurt anything.
As for an Engineer EVERY admitting any problems on a design setting I would doubt it, thats why R&D never does TSB/Recalls that is warranty section. If your specific application has too many comebacks then it gets "fixed" by TSB or Recall.
I was a GM tech in 93/94 and had several Cavaliers/Sunbirds (as local Pontiac dealer wouldnt take on an aggresive rear brake issue) And after figureing out the problem came from both bad shoes from factory and the bad idea from GM on not turning drums when cars came in for the fix.
See brake pads mate to rotors by trading materiel (this is why Perfomance Friction Recommends resurfacing or replacing your rotors as the pad material transfers to the rotors as they mate) now this is great if you have exactly or nearly the same pad matrix. But if the composition of the pad/shoe changes it really messes with ABS and typical braking.
We found 3 big problems in that issue:
Improper adjustment
Improper resurfacing(ie none or not using the better centering 3 jaw adapters)
Over(max over)sized drums/worn shoes upsetting the selfadjusting features.
Oh and for this fix I got a $1000 check from GM/TAN and a certificate.
and offered a job to sit on TAN lines (ment moving)
So after all is sadi and done I understand what GM did ,they fixed them if warrantied but if out of spec the aftermarket parts got hung and cured the same problem.
Now as for me I still install good old green/gold antifreeze if its over the warranty period or we have the cars in for coolant related gasket leaks.
Oh and I dont mind plastic being used in cars (all of the black stuff is Nylon 66 if its reall slick and has been around for decades) I even have a plastic tank rad in my 78 C10 with the 91 Rmodel dog house on it.
Again it works fine, protects fine but will atack the plastic parts, G-05 wont and does same job and hasnt got enough silicates to hurt anything(not that they did anyway) and the sludge in most older engines (found upon rebuilding) has been tested to contain up to as much as 60 to 70 percent silicates. And they use Phosphates to protect surfaces not silicates.
most of the info I listed came from AUG 04 Motor Magazine, I forgot to add that is where some information comes from.
Lee

dkozloski
12-17-06, 11:16 PM
To newcomers to the forum, until you're sure who and what you are talking about be very careful what you say because there are people who come here that will land on you like a ton of bricks. It does nobody any good to start throwing around controversial statements unless you're ready to back them up with data.

dkozloski
12-17-06, 11:21 PM
OK I can understand the problem with listening to a tech who works on the stuff an engineer designed years ago then moved on to another briliant invention/adaptation.
I used to brag on Dex but when I see 3.1/3.4 GM engines comeing in to have coolant leaks from the intakes and seeing the gaskets coming out in pieces.
I am not saying it wont work nor will it actually hurt (unless a plastic framed gasket leakes internally) anything.
I am just saying I have replaced dozens of S10,jbody,nbodyetc heater cores with Dexsludge in them. GM got a bad bad load of Dex from Texaco and did so till the contract ended. what happens is while a stronger mix of Yellow/Green EG antifreeze will go as strong a mix as 69.3 percent and will perform down to something like 70 below (?) I forget but it goes real low.
BUT if you try this with Dex you get that yucky whitish/pinkish sludge up around the cap/rad neck.
Also I see many radiators and other "plastic" parts with coolant related destruction. 2.4 Twin Cam plastic inlet on DS side of head will start leaking when the lip holding the oring selfdestructs. Also 3.8 Buicks have intake issues (Motormite Help line has many many plastic intakes for replacements) and the biggest culprit was Dexcool.
My mother has a 94 Olds 98 and hasnt lost the intake (yet) but I figure it will burn through from EGR soon at 130k but if it had dex it would have been on its second or 3rd intake as my buddies moms car which still runs dexcool as she was given horror stories from GM dealer about switching.
Now my profesional opinion if you have ANY plastic in your cooling system and dont want YELLOW/GREEN in it but want EXt life use G-05 it only changes one component and wont hurt anything.
As for an Engineer EVERY admitting any problems on a design setting I would doubt it, thats why R&D never does TSB/Recalls that is warranty section. If your specific application has too many comebacks then it gets "fixed" by TSB or Recall.
I was a GM tech in 93/94 and had several Cavaliers/Sunbirds (as local Pontiac dealer wouldnt take on an aggresive rear brake issue) And after figureing out the problem came from both bad shoes from factory and the bad idea from GM on not turning drums when cars came in for the fix.
See brake pads mate to rotors by trading materiel (this is why Perfomance Friction Recommends resurfacing or replacing your rotors as the pad material transfers to the rotors as they mate) now this is great if you have exactly or nearly the same pad matrix. But if the composition of the pad/shoe changes it really messes with ABS and typical braking.
We found 3 big problems in that issue:
Improper adjustment
Improper resurfacing(ie none or not using the better centering 3 jaw adapters)
Over(max over)sized drums/worn shoes upsetting the selfadjusting features.
Oh and for this fix I got a $1000 check from GM/TAN and a certificate.
and offered a job to sit on TAN lines (ment moving)
So after all is sadi and done I understand what GM did ,they fixed them if warrantied but if out of spec the aftermarket parts got hung and cured the same problem.
Now as for me I still install good old green/gold antifreeze if its over the warranty period or we have the cars in for coolant related gasket leaks.
Oh and I dont mind plastic being used in cars (all of the black stuff is Nylon 66 if its reall slick and has been around for decades) I even have a plastic tank rad in my 78 C10 with the 91 Rmodel dog house on it.
Again it works fine, protects fine but will atack the plastic parts, G-05 wont and does same job and hasnt got enough silicates to hurt anything(not that they did anyway) and the sludge in most older engines (found upon rebuilding) has been tested to contain up to as much as 60 to 70 percent silicates. And they use Phosphates to protect surfaces not silicates.
most of the info I listed came from AUG 04 Motor Magazine, I forgot to add that is where some information comes from.
Lee
In this ramble I don't see a single word that applies to Northstars.

dkozloski
12-17-06, 11:33 PM
About the only cooling system problem that keeps cropping up here is trapped air and purging problems from a plugged purge line and most of them come from dumping Bars Leak pellets in the surge tank. Nobody comes here complaining about sludge or corrosion that wasn't from mixing the unmixable. All you have to do is follow two simple rules. If you have green coolant, stick with it. If you have DexCool, stick with it. Change it at the proper intervals and you're good to go. If you screw up, fall back to green. Anything else is an aberration.

MonzaRacer
12-17-06, 11:35 PM
I may be a newcomer but I am a 20+ year tech and hold ASE MAster Tech, L1, Master Engine Machinst,Exhaust specialist, Undercar Specialist, Alternative Fuels Cert,ASE Parts Specialist,IMACA Cert, GM CERTS, Ac Delco Certs, Ford Tech specialist cert andI am going for my SEMA/ASE certs soon too. Oh and i am on the IATN site too helping other techs with problems
I just went through Bridgestone/Firestone Advanced Management Strategies Workshop.
Now if someone wants to jump me go for it but I fix cars and sometimes I have to reengineer the engineering marvels the car builders dump on the market.
I also try to teach others what I know, I will help anyone if I can and if the information is out there I will hunt it down.
I am not perfect but I try and I want to be as honest as possible and will tell you if its my fix or something I learned as a tech.
to make a point I have a 6500 dollar tool box and its crammed full but carry another 10k in tools back and forth as I have no place to lock them up. I just up graded my Scanner from a MAC/OTC Enhanced Monitor to a Snap-On Solus and hope to soon swap it for the Modis or atleast reup my loan and get a Vantage Pro (Graphing Digital Multimeter) oh the Souls is gonna cost me 5k plus after interest and the Modius will be over 10 K,, out of my pocket. The Vantage Pro is 2900.00 if i buy it.
I will buy a tool to fix a customers car, regardless of the price, and I am not rich nor overpaid. BUT I am a tool hog.
Someone wants to jump on me and my responces, just get this i am here to learn, look for info and help.
Lee

MonzaRacer
12-17-06, 11:48 PM
In this ramble I don't see a single word that applies to Northstars.

I was talking about the DexCool some people seem to be inlove with but did get off on a side note to show that somethings engineers dont fix the line techs figure out.
And if you like or trust DexCool keep it but for me I use other products that WONT attack the plastic parts in a cooling system.
If you dont understand what something men:
Dexsludge: is the dexcool/gunk stopping up heater cores and radiators.
I was simply stating I see it everyday nearly hurting the 3.1/3.4 and other engines and related plastic compnents.
As for ramble, ok I may not be as eloquent as a profesional writer but if you actually read what Iwrote instead of got up and stood on a soap box and spouted that phrase you might understand this:
DexCool isnt the de all and end all in coolant and a proper flushing and filling with green or G-05 eliminates all of the issues and had NO effect on the plastics parts.
sorry to post so much but this is getting bad, i come over here to the forum to maybe look for some better info in some Northstar/Aurora related systems/parts and find I can actually relate my experience and some information I know that has been in print and is true to the posting. And then get told I in some subtle way that my information isnt wanted. I thought Caddy owners would appreciate the information and my experience,,,hmm guess not.
Lee

dkozloski
12-17-06, 11:56 PM
I may be a newcomer but I am a 20+ year tech and hold ASE MAster Tech, L1, Master Engine Machinst,Exhaust specialist, Undercar Specialist, Alternative Fuels Cert,ASE Parts Specialist,IMACA Cert, GM CERTS, Ac Delco Certs, Ford Tech specialist cert andI am going for my SEMA/ASE certs soon too. Oh and i am on the IATN site too helping other techs with problems
I just went through Bridgestone/Firestone Advanced Management Strategies Workshop.
Now if someone wants to jump me go for it but I fix cars and sometimes I have to reengineer the engineering marvels the car builders dump on the market.
I also try to teach others what I know, I will help anyone if I can and if the information is out there I will hunt it down.
I am not perfect but I try and I want to be as honest as possible and will tell you if its my fix or something I learned as a tech.
to make a point I have a 6500 dollar tool box and its crammed full but carry another 10k in tools back and forth as I have no place to lock them up. I just up graded my Scanner from a MAC/OTC Enhanced Monitor to a Snap-On Solus and hope to soon swap it for the Modis or atleast reup my loan and get a Vantage Pro (Graphing Digital Multimeter) oh the Souls is gonna cost me 5k plus after interest and the Modius will be over 10 K,, out of my pocket. The Vantage Pro is 2900.00 if i buy it.
I will buy a tool to fix a customers car, regardless of the price, and I am not rich nor overpaid. BUT I am a tool hog.
Someone wants to jump on me and my responces, just get this i am here to learn, look for info and help.
Lee
:welcome: Fair enough. As I said cooling systems are not a big problem with Northstars and basic maintenance handles 99% of those. Northstars have a closed cooling system that eliminates the air mixing that plagues other systems with Dex-Cool. People that have trouble bring it on themselves with lack of or bad maintenance. By the way I have about twice what you have invested in tools after giving a lot of stuff away and I'm retired after having worked on everything from guided missiles, to mainframe computers, to aircraft engines, to printing presses, trucks, heavy equipment, cars, boats, and toilets.

Ranger
12-18-06, 11:09 AM
MonzaRacer,
I too would like to extend a:welcome:. We have several techs who post here, one of which is a Caddy tech and his knowledge and help is invaluable and we appreciate your input. One thing you must remember is that much of what you are saying is in contrast to what our old friend (who was very well respected and liked told us). That makes it very hard to sort this all out.

On the subject of plastics. I have replaced the upper intake plenum on my wifes '96 Bonneville 3.8. It was leaking at the TB gasket. I did some research on the subject and what I have learned is that the problem is not Dex, but the EGR "stove pipe" burning through the plastic manifold. Mine was still in pretty good shape when I replaced it but I have seen pics of others that were burned through. To solve the problem, I replaced the stove pipe in the new manifold as a liner and machined a new necked down stove pipe with a .050 clearance between the pipe and the "liner" to keep the heat off of the manifold. This is pretty well documented over at Bonnevilleforums. Your thoughts?

dp102288
12-18-06, 11:32 AM
MonzaRacer welcome from me as well. I am sure some good info will come out of all this.

clarkz71
12-18-06, 02:29 PM
Well as a Mercedes tech, I find what Monza has said interesting. I have noticed alot of problems on dex-cool equipped vehicles. My 1999 Tahoe: intake manifold gaskets leaking (known vortec 5.7 problem). Radiator cracked also. My friends 97 STS, cracked heater core tank. Now my 95 Eldo, green coolant: no problems. I've also noticed on this forum, most headgasket failures are on 96 and up N*'s. Maybe we could do a headgasket failure poll to see how many green coolant vs dex coolant HG's failed.

dp102288
12-18-06, 07:35 PM
^^ Wow, you really think there is a pattern? That would be very interesting to find out.

MonzaRacer
12-18-06, 11:20 PM
August 04 Motor magazine "Coolant Confusion" by Paul Weissler.
it was anad is a very informative article and it also jives with what i have learned over the last few years. Yes the 3.8 has EGR problems but if you have ANY plastic in the cooling system the 2-EHA can attack it and most if not all of the black plastic parts GM uses is Dupont Nylon-66 or one of its cousins. And the neat thing is Ford and GM use the same products as do most aftermarket parts producers.
I do believe most of the cars I work on still have remote surge tank with caps on them and do bleed air directly into themto eliminate air in the system.
But I have seen the crud on most GM models including Cadillacs.
I agree service is very much needed on any car ,,,too bad GM tried to make it fool proof and missed. Extending service intervals was a detriment to any car line.
If GM had used say a 75k service time well it still wont help the plastics but the crud is decreased.
As for slighting any other person on here wasnt my point, its just that Dex does have issues and a lot of tech see it as it shows up as pattern failures in gaskets and seals.
Switching to green and using a reasonable service time works if you want extended service intervals use G-05 and it will work just as good or better than Dex. OH and yes I see a lot of plastic tank rads go away because of Dex. The radiator tanks are just kind of soft and gummy inside on some when I cut them open, others just start flexing at the crimps. Heck I have retanked a lot of GM rads as they had good cores just bad tanks.
Good luck and if anyone wants to ask a ? just pm or email me.
Lee

AlBundy
12-19-06, 01:56 PM
MonzaRacer:welcome: to the forum. There are some very indepth discussions that go on here and your input is welcomed. BTW I don't think you can pm until you reach 50posts.

dp102288
12-19-06, 07:40 PM
:yeah: about 50 posts till PM

:welcome5: if I didn't already!

MonzaRacer
12-21-06, 04:46 AM
OK well if anyone needs to ask questions email me at Xanadu4024@aol.com.
Hmm after this only 40 more to go.
OH by the way someone ask what type of engines I build, which are mostly local sportsman dragracers and dual purpose street/strip engines.
Havent got very successful in roundy round yet. I only have built a handful of circle jerkers, as we call them around here, as my theories arent happy ones cause i tend to think outside the box, they just want a 406 like thier buddys got but faster.
But go figure this one fell I built an engine for had no money so we built a 307 chevy with forged pistons and he took second place and we know for a fact that that guy has a completely aftermarket engine (that guy simply cuts out and affixes GM casting ids to aftermarket blocks, and uses concrete hammers to make ported heads look stock, reason I know is I used to be friends with his builder and that guy just drives his big yellow H3 over the rule book.
Me I figure out how to go fast cheap and have fun but I would rather be autocrossing or dragracing. Too many redneck drinkers/brawlers in dirt racing for me.
Sorry to hijack
Oh and just did ANOTHER S10 heater core with Dex-Crud in it gotta love the 6 hrs flat rate to do them I thik I got a zipper on them now haha. Owner had us flush complete system and since hehad new rad last month and new HC wed. we put G-05 back in it.Oh and we had to fix the intake gaskets back in MAY so he was a believer.
Lee Abel
Again sorry for hijack but cant PM yet.

billytheshoe
12-29-06, 09:04 AM
50/50 premix coolants contain mineral filtered water and are well worth the extra 20 cents per gallon for the convinence.

GreenMachine
12-29-06, 03:52 PM
I always hear about S-10's sludging up with dexcool, I have even talked to (he was my boss for abit) about it. He had an S10 and all threw the warranty period he had to keep going back and getting the heater core flushed, he then swtiched to green and few months ago traded it in on a 07 Silverado Classic with the 5.3L V8. He had enough of a "small truck" but was tempted to do a custom job on the truck and squeeze a small block in the S10 :)

In contrast I never hear about Northstars sludging up coolant on either board I frequent, and the searches I've done have always yielded at mistake at some point in the coolant filling or changing (letting it go to long and/mixing it with something you shouldn't mix it with).

dkozloski
12-29-06, 04:23 PM
The sludging appears mostly in vehicles that use a coolant overflow bottle that's open to the atmosphere. Oxidation is apparantly the problem. A Northstar uses a sealed expansion tank.

Ranger
12-29-06, 05:01 PM
My wifes '96 Bonneville 3800 (135K) has an overflow tank that is opened to atmosphere an I have yet to have a problem.

dp102288
12-29-06, 09:02 PM
Never had a problem in our other cars with expansion tanks. Or do you mean Dex-Cool with expansion tanks?

MonzaRacer
12-31-06, 02:17 AM
Well I was sent a link and I read a lot of things including the posts the Beezlebob said about DecCool. And while I agree with what his answers was for WHY GM went with extended life antifreeze I do know one of the Texaco/Havoline engineers that helped design and formulate Dex-Cool and after talking to some friend I was reminded of his involvement in its production AND the response he gave me when I kept seeing the crud around low miles GM rad caps especialy on trucks and it was from a mis-mix from the Texaco factory (from tthe information I read GM now mixes it in house) that neither GM nor Texaco found till they actually tested it and found some problems with the mix, turns out someone read the sliderule wrong and was mixing by assumed flow rates rather than by weights. He told me that some genius thought that if a certain pipe could flow Xamount of fluid in Xtime under Xpreasure he designed the mix system that way. I even recieved Dexcool in late 94 from the factory in drums at the dealer and it got crusty around the lids, and now I know why.
Anyway that is why I simply stated that many of the "other " manufacturers decided after testing that Dex has problems and figured out why and went a slightly different way with G-05.
But I also remember the buletin from GM that stated that an exteneded life coolant was about to be introduced and "could" be used in all older GM vehicles with no ill affects. This was posted in early 90's and I found it when I started at Chevy dealership in 93.
I personally liked it till I started seeing problems and now I know what it does because of Texaco's choice to use 2EHA in its mix. Now I use either Evan Cooling Systems NPG+/NPG-R or G-05. The big problem is that NPG+ its about 40 buck a gallon but its benifits are very awesome.
I stand on 12 years of work experience. I dont like Dex anymore but its comparable competitors work just as well if not better and no Dex-crud!
Take it easy guys
Lee

Murphyg
01-02-07, 11:00 PM
As you stated yourself.
There were alot of factors involved with the introduction of the Dex.
One being that it was new and there is only so much that can be learened within the labs.
Have to remember that it was introduced for a specific engine....Anyone please correct me ....

Was then thought it could also be used in any system. Which was never recomended by GM.
A new thing came out that was supposed to be superior, but as human nature is....no one read the fine print.
It was never recomended for all vehicles. GM or other wise.
Misconceptions were made, and people had problems.

So GM had to go into safety mode. What else could they do ?

Same thing as Bic having to cover there asses when young children started burning down houses.
Wasnt the consumers fault for leaving the children and the lighters unatendeed.
Was all the manufacturers fault.

No argument that there were some issues within the processing. (Texaco).
But that does not mean it is the incorrect product to use in a vehicle that it is recomended for.
Ive also seen and heard of the nightmares occured from Dex. But generally they were the results of a vehicle that it was never recomended for and or applied incorectly.

Was it Shell ???? Maybe some other???? that was producing fuel bout a year, maybe 2 ago, that the additive was wreaking major havik on Chryslers ? or Fords? whatever,fuel systems.
So no way should we use there fuel anymore ?????

Dex used in the vehicles that its recomended for, and as specified, is in no way a problem.

MonzaRacer
01-06-07, 01:27 AM
Like I stated DexCool works great in cars with no plastic in the systems. As for working in any car YES IT WILL. It is mearly an extended life antifreeze nad the manufacturer (GM keeps stating 150k /5 yr changes and if you simply change it OR green at around 75k/2yrs (or sooner) but it was designed for the lazy/inept/ignorant car owners who never service their vehicles properly.
The big reason was because people never changes coolant and the silicates fell out of suspension causeing sludge in the cooling system and allowing corrosion to begin.
Oh and in the 12 year or so that Dex has been out a LOT of people have seen the same problem that I see.
I cant knock extended life AF its good BUT it should never be used in a system with plastic in the system because of the 2EHA,,,, or use G-05.
Lee

GreenMachine
01-06-07, 01:33 AM
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