: Discount Tires Refused Taking My Tire Sensors Out..



Chef
12-06-06, 07:52 PM
:rant2:

Pulled in for a quick change out and was told they couldn't take them out due to a potential lawsuit if an accident was related to tire pressure?

Anyone else hear something like this?

Chef

mdc
12-06-06, 08:16 PM
Were the tires you were using run flats?

I think the law states that you need pressure sensors in run flats because there is no visually way of seeing that a tire is damaged (ie flattened tire)

I could be wrong though

Chef
12-06-06, 09:25 PM
No - GS-D3's...

Hmmm...

nikon
12-06-06, 09:48 PM
Were the tires you were using run flats?

I think the law states that you need pressure sensors in run flats because there is no visually way of seeing that a tire is damaged (ie flattened tire)

I could be wrong though

nope your correct...the sensors are only for the run-flats.

CIWS
12-06-06, 09:52 PM
Will your local Cadi dealer not do it ?

Chef
12-06-06, 10:17 PM
Will your local Cadi dealer not do it ?

Going there next...:want: Just thought I'd run over to DT today as I was in the neighborhood.

We'll see...

Chef

thebigjimsho
12-06-06, 10:21 PM
Just another great reason to own an '04...

All new cars will be mandated to have TPS by '09, I believe. Depending on your year, cars presently with TPS supposedly from '06 on need to keep them.


Or so I was told...

rand49er
12-07-06, 12:12 PM
Just another great reason to own an '04...

All new cars will be mandated to have TPS by '09, I believe. Depending on your year, cars presently with TPS supposedly from '06 on need to keep them.


Or so I was told...bigjim, two ques:
1) Is this a Federal law/requirement? Fuel economy related?
2) If I had an '06, then, and put winter tires mounted on aftermarket wheels w/o the TPS, would that be a problem?

The Tony Show
12-07-06, 12:34 PM
It's just like getting your cats removed- it's all who you know/bribe.

thebigjimsho
12-07-06, 05:57 PM
bigjim, two ques:
1) Is this a Federal law/requirement? Fuel economy related?
2) If I had an '06, then, and put winter tires mounted on aftermarket wheels w/o the TPS, would that be a problem?I really am not sure. It may become mandatory in all new cars and may be requires like cats. My tire shop informed me of the new requirements and they sounded very certain.

I'm not into federal regulations on every aspect of our lives but once the price of sensors drops, I think this will be good.

50 4Ever
12-07-06, 06:07 PM
No - GS-D3's...

Hmmm...

Hey Chef, what size did you get in the GS-D3's, both 245/40/18 & 275/35/18 are EMT's. The stock size 245/45/18 is a non runflat and you shouldn't have had a problem.

Probably none of my business, but why do you want to run without sensors? Could it be because you have track tires and you will use the GS-D3's to get you to the track and they will let the computer know you don't have sensors (50 mi)?

:cool2:

Chef
12-07-06, 08:35 PM
Sort of having issues with them not staying on at times - Like I think StealthV had some issues with some front ones in the past -

To be honest I'm not convinced of their temps relative to my gauge readings. There's always a difference so why have them? I'll be changing tires more frequently when I get my Nitto - NT-01's:cool:

How about you? Any issues with the sensors in terms of psi differences?

50 4Ever
12-08-06, 02:25 AM
Sort of having issues with them not staying on at times - Like I think StealthV had some issues with some front ones in the past -

To be honest I'm not convinced of their temps relative to my gauge readings. There's always a difference so why have them? I'll be changing tires more frequently when I get my Nitto - NT-01's:cool:

How about you? Any issues with the sensors in terms of psi differences?

I mainly use mine for cold tire pressure, and they are dead on. If the tires are low and I fill them then use my longacre gauge to bleed them down to 30 psi, the display will say 30 at all 4 corners. One time on the track my pressure built up to 40 in a couple of tires, when I checked it, it was 40 in those tires. So I trust my readings. Unless I'm on a straight highway they usually differ by 1 or 2 psi.

Those NT01's look like great tires, the 1st ones I saw were on Denniscars V.

tedcmiller
12-08-06, 01:07 PM
nope your correct...the sensors are only for the run-flats.

That would be wrong. There are many cars that come from the factory with TPMs and non-runflat tires - my wife's 2004 DTS, for example.

As far as I know, at this time, there are no laws requiring TPMs for any tires - runflats or otherwise. It is, however, a good idea to keep TPMs on run-flat tires since, as has been pointed out by others, there is no significant visual difference between a properly inflated run-flat and one with low or no pressure.

I think you can expect to see tire pressure monitor systems on most cars within a few years. Like the "third brake light" they will eventually be legally mandated. However, not all tire pressure monitor systems use in-tire sensors. Some use variations in tire rotation speed as an indication that there is a significant difference in tire pressure. The next question is will run-flat tires ever be mandated? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.

calicadi
12-08-06, 11:04 PM
Just another great reason to own an '04...

All new cars will be mandated to have TPS by '09, I believe. Depending on your year, cars presently with TPS supposedly from '06 on need to keep them.


Or so I was told...

Tire shop where I got my Potenza's had a poster up to that effect. Time to buy stock in whoever makes those suckers... let' see one million cars times four tires each times $55 each sensor... ouch! anurism! can't think big numbers late at night! somebody hand me a calculator!

rgd
12-09-06, 05:39 PM
It's just like getting your cats removed- it's all who you know/bribe.

Not to thread jack, but removing the cats is easy. Lol After about 10 or so track days I took my V in to have both cats replaced because they were bad (cant stand the smell). Both cats were gutted bare...absolutly nothing left in them! The guy at the dealership said he had never seen that before. :bonkers:

Gotta my Cadi dealership is one of the good ones. Once again no questions asked on the repair. That is why I buy me next car thru them if at all possible...
rgd
Back to the previously aired thread!

tedcmiller
12-13-06, 08:55 AM
I haven't seen any posters regarding mandated tire pressure monitoring so I don't know if 2009 has any validity, but I do know that not all tire pressure monitoring (TPM) systems rely on in-tire sensors. As I pointed out earlier, some TPM systems utilize variations in tire rotational speed. So, even when tire pressure monitoring becomes mandatory (and I think it will, eventually), this doesn't mean that every car will require TPM sensors in the tires. That fact combined with reduced prices due to higher demand will result in very little increase, if any, in financial benefits to the manufacturers.

In any case, if you currently have TPM sensors, I would keep them because of the numerous benefits they provide, especially with run-flat tires.

atdeneve
12-13-06, 10:48 AM
As I pointed out earlier, some TPM systems utilize variations in tire rotational speed.

Each tire will have a different rotational speed just due to the unique paths that they individually travel. That's going to require a lot of calculations in order to take into account all those variables.

Yes, to be fair, those differences in individual rotational speeds due to different paths and road topography are going to be rather miniscule. But then, how large do you think the change in rotational speeds will be due to slight changes in pressure? If it's not sensitive enough to measure differences in rotational speeds due to road topography and individual tire path, it's not going to be sensitive enough to measure differences in rotational speeds due to slight pressure changes (i.e., tire warming up; drop in temperatures).

As far as I can see, the only way that method would show any pressure change of significance or meaning would be in a total blowout, at which point it would be like, "Um, yeah, thanks". Seems, more or less, useless. Furthermore, I would imagine that the calculation would have to be derived from a set standard pressure and a particular size (diameter). So, you would always have to use the same pressure and tire size or, if possible, you would have to recalibrate it to another standard, provided that they allowed for and designed/built in that option (which they probably would/should have to). Doesn't seem to be the easiest or most practical method. Unless I'm missing something.

The Tony Show
12-13-06, 12:05 PM
Buicks have had this sort of "indirect" tire monitor for years now. It uses the wheelspeed sensors (via the ABS module) to detect if there's a prolonged difference in one wheel's rotation relative to the others, then gives you an ambiguous "Check tires" MIL on the dash.

ewill3rd
12-13-06, 12:49 PM
Beginning September 1, 2005 automakers will have to install the new warning systems. Over the 2006 model year, 50 percent of an automaker's lineup must be equipped with the new devices. By 2007, 90 percent of models must have the device and by 2008 they must be in full compliance.

I am not sure what to make of their refusal to remove the sensors.
I guess from a legal standpoint they might have a case to protect themselves against lawsuit. Interesting.

tedcmiller
12-13-06, 01:47 PM
atdeneve,
The rotational-speed-difference method for detecting tire pressure differences is not only currently available on many different car models (my daughter's Pontiac Vibe for one), it is not that big a problem for the computers that already exist in today's cars. As far as your other concerns go, the system works with any size tire, any type, any manufacturer, any pressure, without any recalibration. This is because it is a relative measurement that compares one tire against the others. The only requirement is that the tires be of the same type and set to approximately the same pressure. This means that the warning results from a pressure difference, higher or lower, and does not provide absolute pressure values like you get with in-tire sensors (some systems use pressure sensors that screw on the valve stem in place of the valve cap). The bottom line is that if all the tires are of an equal but low (or high) pressure there will be no warning. The warning indicates a significant presssure difference. A blowout is not required to get a warning. The tire-rotation-speed method is much, much cheaper than the systems using separate sensors for each wheel.

atdeneve
12-13-06, 02:17 PM
Buicks have had this sort of "indirect" tire monitor for years now. It uses the wheelspeed sensors (via the ABS module) to detect if there's a prolonged difference in one wheel's rotation relative to the others, then gives you an ambiguous "Check tires" MIL on the dash.


Yeah, I figured that they would make use of the ABS's wheelspeed sensors. It's just that I can't see how they're gonna arrive at a tire pressure measurement from this (well, at least, not easily).

True, a prolonged difference will reliably indicate a difference in pressure between some wheels, but, no more. Like you said, quite ambiguous. If they were all equally under or overinflated, everythings hunkey dory. Nothing remotely close to what I would consider a tire pressure system. Still think variations in rotational speeds is too much trouble for what would invariably amount to a subpar system.

Hey Ted,
I just read your above post. Agreed (very much what I was saying). Yes, a simple difference in pressure is certainly easy enough to detect with nothing more than rotational speed variations. But, like both, you and I, stated, this is just a relative measurement. No complex calculations whatsoever are required to determine that and, consequentlt, all the other factors/concerns are not even relevant. When you first mentioned tire pressure systems and rotational speed variations, I just thought you were talking about a system that provided actual pressure measurements, which would be a large task to tackle using just variations in rotational speeds.

But then again, maybe I was just making things more difficult than they need to be. Heh heh. :bigroll:

RedGalant2k1
12-15-06, 12:02 AM
Hey Chef, what size did you get in the GS-D3's, both 245/40/18 & 275/35/18 are EMT's. The stock size 245/45/18 is a non runflat and you shouldn't have had a problem.

Probably none of my business, but why do you want to run without sensors? Could it be because you have track tires and you will use the GS-D3's to get you to the track and they will let the computer know you don't have sensors (50 mi)?

:cool2:

The CTS-V has ALWAYS come stock with Goodyear Eagle RS-A runflats with TPMS.

stkshkr
12-15-06, 01:02 AM
The CTS-V has ALWAYS come stock with Goodyear Eagle RS-A runflats with TPMS.
Only since 06........ 04-05 had F1 runcraps

rambird
12-15-06, 01:07 AM
I was told this weekend by a local tire shop that they would not put tires on new wheels I just purchased for my 2006 CTS-V without removing and replacing the pressure sensors from my old wheels, even though I do not want to put run flats back on. They said its a new federal law that every new car that comes equipped with tire pressure sensors, must maintain them. He said it was a felony for them to disable the TPMS by not replacing the sensors. He seemed to know what he was talking about and was adamant about it. What kind of crap is this?

RedGalant2k1
12-15-06, 01:08 AM
Only since 06........ 04-05 had F1 runcraps

I've seen many 04-05 CTS-Vs come into my shop with Eagle RS-A runflats.

The Eagle F1 Supercars are great tires

RedGalant2k1
12-15-06, 01:19 AM
I was told this weekend by a local tire shop that they would not put tires on new wheels I just purchased for my 2006 CTS-V without removing and replacing the pressure sensors from my old wheels, even though I do not want to put run flats back on. They said its a new federal law that every new car that comes equipped with tire pressure sensors, must maintain them. He said it was a felony for them to disable the TPMS by not replacing the sensors. He seemed to know what he was talking about and was adamant about it. What kind of crap is this?

I never heard of any federal law requiring cars with TPMS to keep it, and I work in the tire industry.

ewill3rd
12-15-06, 07:12 AM
I haven't heard any "regulations" that require the sensors to stay on the car.
I have only a couple of things to say about this though.

1. Why would you want to remove them? I mean they work right? Without them the bells are going to ring and the DIC is going to make you crazy unless you disable it somehow.

2. It seems like DRLs or something like that to me. It's a factory installed safety feature. I know if a car has DRLs they have to work unless you have had them officially disabled, which is hard to do and GM tells us we can only to it for law enforcement agencies with mounds of paperwork.

I hadn't really thought about whether or not it's "illegal" to disable or remove them. We have customers that put 22's on their Escalades and they can't have them so we see some come in dinging with the lights on to service the TPM system. I guess it's more important to have the bling than it is to keep your sanity. ;)

thebigjimsho
12-15-06, 07:28 AM
The CTS-V has ALWAYS come stock with Goodyear Eagle RS-A runflats with TPMS.What's this post about? The talk wasn't about stock tires...

And RSAs came later. They're the same tires that are offered on the Sky/Solstice.

RedGalant2k1
12-15-06, 08:02 AM
What's this post about? The talk wasn't about stock tires...

And RSAs came later. They're the same tires that are offered on the Sky/Solstice.

It was a reply to someone who said this


"Hey Chef, what size did you get in the GS-D3's, both 245/40/18 & 275/35/18 are EMT's. The stock size 245/45/18 is a non runflat and you shouldn't have had a problem."

The CTS-V has always had runflat tires, it was a correction for an error.

But then I really shouldn't have to explain myself, its cut and dry if you read the thread.

atdeneve
12-15-06, 09:08 AM
Actually, if you read the thread, you'll see that he wasn't talking about stock tires. He was talking about the GS-D3s in stock size (245/45/18), which in that particular tire comes as a non-runflat, thereby precipitating the conclusion that he shouldn't have had a problem with the shop not re-installing the sensors. That then led to the debate about the federal mandate for TPMs remaining installed on vehicles that come with such a system. So, no, there was no error, nor a need to correct one.

And as someone mentioned, the CTS-V did not always come with the RS-As stock. In 04-05, they came with the Eagle F1 Supercar EMTs. Those 04-05s that you have seen mounted with RS-As did not come from the factory that way. They were installed by the owner, after the fact. Given the rate at which the F1s wear down, you will see a lot of people deciding not to shell out another 1500+ to get another set.

RedGalant2k1
12-15-06, 12:11 PM
And as someone mentioned, the CTS-V did not always come with the RS-As stock. In 04-05, they came with the Eagle F1 Supercar EMTs. Those 04-05s that you have seen mounted with RS-As did not come from the factory that way. They were installed by the owner, after the fact. Given the rate at which the F1s wear down, you will see a lot of people deciding not to shell out another 1500+ to get another set.

I disagree. I've seen CTS-Vs getting there first replacement set of tires with the Eagle RS-As, not the F1s.

stkshkr
12-15-06, 12:23 PM
I disagree. I've seen CTS-Vs getting there first replacement set of tires with the Eagle RS-As, not the F1s.

Yes, replacement, but they came from the factory with F1's. I know this because I own an 05! Hope this ends this debate.

atdeneve
12-15-06, 01:14 PM
I disagree. I've seen CTS-Vs getting there first replacement set of tires with the Eagle RS-As, not the F1s.

Disagree with what? The fact that the 04-05s came with F1s? Okay, you win.

Not sure I even get the point of your other statement. Take a look at the last sentence in that paragraph you quoted from me. It basically says just that. Yeah, most people are ditching the F1s (due to low tread-life/high price ratio) in favor of other tires, many opting for the RS-As (a choice I personally would not consider). Thus, the reason you may have seen a number of 04-05s with those tires. But, whatever man, I must have smoked too much crack this morning. So, yeah, you win.

Damn tremors got my back in a twist.

50 4Ever
12-15-06, 01:47 PM
It was a reply to someone who said this


Quote:
"Hey Chef, what size did you get in the GS-D3's, both 245/40/18 & 275/35/18 are EMT's. The stock size 245/45/18 is a non runflat and you shouldn't have had a problem."

The CTS-V has always had runflat tires, it was a correction for an error.

...


I am that "someone" that posted the correct statement you refer to as "an error". I am sorry you misread the post, when you read "The stock size 245/45/18 is a non-runflat..." you must have substituted "tire" for "size" since I was talking about the stock size in the GS-D3 product Line.

RedGalant2k1
12-15-06, 05:34 PM
Disagree with what? The fact that the 04-05s came with F1s? Okay, you win.

Not sure I even get the point of your other statement. Take a look at the last sentence in that paragraph you quoted from me. It basically says just that. Yeah, most people are ditching the F1s (due to low tread-life/high price ratio) in favor of other tires, many opting for the RS-As (a choice I personally would not consider). Thus, the reason you may have seen a number of 04-05s with those tires. But, whatever man, I must have smoked too much crack this morning. So, yeah, you win.

Damn tremors got my back in a twist.

I stated that I've seen 04-05 CTS-Vs with Eagle RS-A runflats as original equipment. Infact some RS-As we've replaced with the F1s.

stkshkr
12-15-06, 11:44 PM
You must work in a different dimension

Redline CTS-V
12-15-06, 11:54 PM
I stated that I've seen 04-05 CTS-Vs with Eagle RS-A runflats as original equipment.
2004 & 2005 did not come with anything besides the Eagle F1 as original equipment. The RS-A was offered as an option starting in 2006. Prior to 2006 you couldn't choose, there wasn't a way to order a V with RS-A's in 2004 or 2005...

CIWS
12-16-06, 12:12 PM
2004 & 2005 did not come with anything besides the Eagle F1 as original equipment. The RS-A was offered as an option starting in 2006. Prior to 2006 you couldn't choose, there wasn't a way to order a V with RS-A's in 2004 or 2005...

:yeah:

Redline CTS-V
12-16-06, 12:45 PM
I couldn't resist... I saw it move so I just had to :horse: