: 90 Brougham



jomor
12-05-06, 06:43 PM
I have an opportunity to buy a very clean 429 and tranny out of a 77. Considering putting it in my 90 brougham and dumping the 5.0. Has anyone put this engine in a 90-92 before? My 5.0 has the carb. Comments?

90Brougham350
12-05-06, 06:56 PM
'77 models came with a 425. I doubt this swap has ever been done before, but I'm sure it could be. You'll need a parts car, an '80-81 so you have the right motor mounts and trans crossmember.

96Fleetwood
12-05-06, 07:04 PM
The 425 is a slug. My Dad's '78 Eldo Collectors Edition has it and it can barely power the car. If you thought the 307 was bad.. this is just as bad with worse fuel economy.

jomor
12-05-06, 07:51 PM
OK so it looks like a 5.7 swap would be better?!

bicentennialcadillac
12-05-06, 08:03 PM
454.

90Brougham350
12-05-06, 08:04 PM
If your 90 is in good enough shape, selling it and buying a comparable '90-92 would be the easiest thing to do. The 5.7 gets better mileage than the 425. It isn't more powerful or faster though, they're really about the same. The 5.7 has another gear to grab in the tranny though, and better gearing.

brougham_geezer
12-06-06, 07:03 PM
I'm sure Rick would agree with me and argue that the 425 is no slug. I'll be going through a similar swap very soon, jormor. I'm ditching the nasty 307 in my clean 1989 for a low miles 425 and tranny from a rusted out but smooth running '79 Sedan DeVille.

My personal reasoning is as follows:

The 425 big block is a true, Cadillac motor. My 307 is an Olds small block, which in my opinion has no place in a Caddy, and mine is in poor, unreliable condition to boot. Fuel economy is not important to me, as I do not drive this car very much. I would not want a '90-'92 due to the ugly "1990s treatment" (headlights, cladding etc.) in the first place. I don't even like the thick, updated bumper impact strips on my 1989. They only thing that would make one of these cars appealing to me is if it had an actual Cadillac motor in it. I would love to see you put the 425 in there. From what I can tell, and what Rick has pointed out, the 425 is an easy motor to "open up" and get lots of power from. This motor is the offspring of the potent 472 and 500 which produced incredible amounts of horsepower and torque in the early '70s. In turn, it is possible to get lots of power from a 425 if you know what parts to swap. A set of nice quiet dual exhaust with no cats would be first on my to do list. I find even the 368 Cad. big block has plenty of torque, and the 425 is no exception. This motor could be made into a very capable powerhouse without too much effort.

This is not to rag on any GM V8's as I love them all. The Chevy 305 is a hard motor to beat, as I've plenty experience with it in our '85 Parisienne. Bulletproof for sure, and it can also produce plenty of power. I'll admit I'm unimpressed with the 307 though, and I really like the idea of Cadillacs with Cad. big blocks. Maybe rick could provide us with some thoughts on the 425? I'm interested to figure out some more details on the upcoming motor swap.

N0DIH
12-06-06, 07:29 PM
A friend of mine had a t-top Eldo, 78, with the 425. When he punched it the rear bumped nearly nailed the ground. It did ok.....

They also has a 77 XS Toronado with a 403 Olds. The Olds seemed a little stronger, like it had a larger cam. It just ran harder. But the 425 and the Eldo seemed more soft and disconnected from the road, unlike the Toro.

FRANKO
12-06-06, 08:22 PM
If you can live with the appearance...dump your Olds Cad and go with the 350 gas, 90-92. My 90 Smokes those tires, all stock except for the K&N. LOVE IT!

FRANKO

Destroyer
12-06-06, 08:47 PM
I'm sure Rick would agree with me and argue that the 425 is no slug. I'll be going through a similar swap very soon, jormor. I'm ditching the nasty 307 in my clean 1989 for a low miles 425 and tranny from a rusted out but smooth running '79 Sedan DeVille.

My personal reasoning is as follows:

The 425 big block is a true, Cadillac motor. My 307 is an Olds small block, which in my opinion has no place in a Caddy, and mine is in poor, unreliable condition to boot. Fuel economy is not important to me, as I do not drive this car very much. I would not want a '90-'92 due to the ugly "1990s treatment" (headlights, cladding etc.) in the first place. I don't even like the thick, updated bumper impact strips on my 1989. They only thing that would make one of these cars appealing to me is if it had an actual Cadillac motor in it. I would love to see you put the 425 in there. From what I can tell, and what Rick has pointed out, the 425 is an easy motor to "open up" and get lots of power from. This motor is the offspring of the potent 472 and 500 which produced incredible amounts of horsepower and torque in the early '70s. In turn, it is possible to get lots of power from a 425 if you know what parts to swap. A set of nice quiet dual exhaust with no cats would be first on my to do list. I find even the 368 Cad. big block has plenty of torque, and the 425 is no exception. This motor could be made into a very capable powerhouse without too much effort.

This is not to rag on any GM V8's as I love them all. The Chevy 305 is a hard motor to beat, as I've plenty experience with it in our '85 Parisienne. Bulletproof for sure, and it can also produce plenty of power. I'll admit I'm unimpressed with the 307 though, and I really like the idea of Cadillacs with Cad. big blocks. Maybe rick could provide us with some thoughts on the 425? I'm interested to figure out some more details on the upcoming motor swap.
Too bad you live so far away I'd absolutely smoke your 425 when and IF you ever do the swap in my ugly '91 w/355 L98. BTW: the 305 Chevy never really put out any real numbers even modified compared with a 350. So tell us, how would you make the 425 Caddy motor into a "capable powerhouse" without "too much effort"?. The 425 was full on smog motor with restrictive heads and really low compression. Many years ago I installed a 425 into my '80 Eldorado and it was far from anything even closely related to the word powerful. It was smooth and quicker than the stock motor but it was not a "capable powerhouse". Yeah the 425 is a decendant from the 472/500 but what does that mean?. To get early 472/500 specs out of the 425 would entail a crapload of parts/time/money. I mean crap, a Chevy 265 from an '80 Malibu is the offspring of the hipo small blocks from the 50's, 60's, etc......what the hell does that have to do with anything?. The 307 in your Cadillac is the offspring of many hipo Rocket motors of the past, so whats your point?. The 425 would indeed be a good replacement for the 307 but lets not go calling it a powerhouse.

caddydaddy
12-06-06, 09:18 PM
I'd stay away from a 425 if you are looking for power. If you just wanted a little more power, and a rock solid reliable engine, the 425 is it! But if you want power, I'd take the 472 or 500.
It would be a very cheap upgrade compared to the 454 mentioned, plus it's a Cadillac engine! I would get the crossmember from that '77 along with the motor mounts and trans. Then with a decent rear end, you'd have an awesome sleeper!

brougham_geezer
12-07-06, 01:57 AM
Destroyer: I stand corrected, and apologize. There's no doubt you would smoke my car. I guess it's my juvenile exciement about finding a Cadillac motor to drop in my own gutless car. I should've also said that it's only my opinion that I prefer the older style to the '90 and up. I just think the large composite headlights are better suited for the updated looks of the '93-'96 Fleetwoods.

Obviously I would rather the powerful 472, but they're not as easy to find. I'm not looking for a sleeper. I just want to be able to say I have a Cadillac engine under the hood, and to have a reliable motor that doesn't use all the oil I pour into it. I don't have that right now.

jomor, how much are they asking for this 425, and how many miles are on it?

davesdeville
12-07-06, 02:46 AM
Better not tell Kenny Sharp the 425 is a slug...

http://500caddy.us/Random/kennysharp.jpg
10.82@123.20 at 3580lbs. The motor is 433ci, 8.5:1 compression, has a BBF Torker intake and roller cam among a few other things.

A 425 should be good for (in my estimation) an easy 300hp, 430ft.lbs. with a decent cam, 472-500 intake and exhaust manifolds. In good running condition I'd guess 235hp/390ft.lbs stock.

96Fleetwood
12-07-06, 07:50 AM
Did he convert that Eldo to RWD?

235hp stock? I thought it was more like 180....

90Brougham350
12-07-06, 08:12 AM
390 ft. lbs? Not a chance, I wouldn't guess more than 330 on a good day, the 425 is the very definition of a smog motor.

Destroyer
12-07-06, 09:41 AM
Better not tell Kenny Sharp the 425 is a slug...

http://500caddy.us/Random/kennysharp.jpg
10.82@123.20 at 3580lbs. The motor is 433ci, 8.5:1 compression, has a BBF Torker intake and roller cam among a few other things.

A 425 should be good for (in my estimation) an easy 300hp, 430ft.lbs. with a decent cam, 472-500 intake and exhaust manifolds. In good running condition I'd guess 235hp/390ft.lbs stock.
Now that is a cool car!. Love the oddball choice in car and drivetrain. But in reality that thing was not put together with little effort. I guarantee that car has a huge shot of nitrous and a huge/expensive list of things done to the motor. I would like to read more about it though, got a link?.

Destroyer
12-07-06, 10:05 AM
Destroyer: I stand corrected, and apologize. There's no doubt you would smoke my car. I guess it's my juvenile exciement about finding a Cadillac motor to drop in my own gutless car. I should've also said that it's only my opinion that I prefer the older style to the '90 and up. I just think the large composite headlights are better suited for the updated looks of the '93-'96 Fleetwoods.

Obviously I would rather the powerful 472, but they're not as easy to find. I'm not looking for a sleeper. I just want to be able to say I have a Cadillac engine under the hood, and to have a reliable motor that doesn't use all the oil I pour into it. I don't have that right now.

jomor, how much are they asking for this 425, and how many miles are on it?
GM didn't see fit to keep the Fleetwood Cadillac powered so why should I?. GM put small block Olds and Chevy motors in them so a small block Chevy in my Fleetwood is more original than a Cadillac motor. Regardless, I agree there is nothing cooler than seeing a real Caddy motor in the Fleetwoods and I would jump at the chance if I found an early 472/500. If you want power go for the Caddy 472/500 or you have other options which would be just as cool and have more aftermarket support like the BOP 455's. An Olds 425 is also a good choice.

Rick186
12-07-06, 01:23 PM
Not knowing where you are, I wonder what the State Smog Nazis will do if you have to take your re-powered vehicle thru emissions testing.
In CT, I've been told (by State Police) that an OLDER motor in a newer body is illegal.
HOWEVER - the reverse isn't:
It's okay to put a newer year motor into an older body.
BTW, there was an article in one of the carnut magazines about a fellow in CA who had a really gorgeous motor which he designed to put out LESS pollution than the stock motor.
CHP took him to court since "It doesn't look stock." :hmm:
This was at least 20 years ago, so I don't know what CA's policy is now, but the Guvmint can sure be screwy at times.:annoyed: