: Gun Control Issue



OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 12:22 AM
hello loungers, :) im writing an argumentative paper for my english class, the subject of debate being gun control laws. id like to get some mature input on this subject, facts preferably but also some opinion as to wether laws should be stricter, less strict or are just right. i understand this can be a very touchy subject so i have cleared this thru a mod who agreed to let this thread live as long as it doesnt get out of hand. please help me and post intelligently with relevant information/content.

id like to hear both sides of the debate simply because an argumentative paper is the optimal way for a person to argue a point of view. when arguing in person one is often unprepared and will as a result lose an argument for lack of facts or stats to support ones point of view. an argumentative paper allows one to research a topic and gives an opportunity before hand to get different points of views thereby strenghtening the persons argument

OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 12:47 AM
anyone?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-21-06, 12:52 AM
I'm pro guns. If we didn't have them, how could we defend ourselves in case of attack/burglary/carjacking?

CadillacGurl
11-21-06, 12:56 AM
I'm a little bit of both, we have in the bill of rights to bear arms.
But you gotta be smart to put the guns away from little curious kids.

OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 12:57 AM
I'm pro guns. If we didn't have them, how could we defend ourselves in case of attack/burglary/carjacking?
i could counter argue that point with fact brought up in another classmates research.

statistically, armed victims of such crimes are more likely to be hurt or hurt themselves than unarmed victims...

why, most of the people who buy weapons "for self protection" dont take the time to properly educate themselves on proper gun use and safety, also they dont take the time to familiarize themselves with the weapon and become comfortable with it, so they become nervous when it comes time to use it. they either freeze up and get shot, or pull the trigger at the wrong time and shoot themselves <---opinion

CadillacGurl
11-21-06, 01:01 AM
When I was 7 my dad took me out shooting. Taught me how to load a gun, clean it, put the safety on, etc. He did this with my other siblings as well. Sort of gun education....

OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 01:03 AM
I'm a little bit of both, we have in the bill of rights to bear arms.
But you gotta be smart to put the guns away from little curious kids.

i agree with you, we need laws to protect our children, but in most cases the best protections is education. we need to teach our children what guns are, let them know guns exist and let them know that guns are dangerous instead of just hiding them, if i kid doesnt know what it is and how dangerous it is, theyll wanna play with it...



A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

one could argue that the right to bear arms is only applicable to well regulated militias, many americans forget this line of the second amendment.


im not tryin to hate im just offering counter arguments, i agree with you chad, i think my paper is going to focus more on leaving the gun laws alone, but stressing gun education to reduce the negative effects of guns in america

illumina
11-21-06, 01:21 AM
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

One could also argue the ambiguity of this term as well. I tend to believe that it means that all citizens have such rights to bear arms, as it is also our right to form said regulated militias...according to one's own beliefs...

OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 01:26 AM
i agree that the statement is ambiguous, and i agree that all citizens have the right to bear arms, but how many well regulated militias, other than the United States army, do you see walking around?

Switzerland issues all military aged male citizens an assault rifle to keep at home and practice with on a regular basis, they do not have a federal army. to me thats a well regulated militia, they have a low crime rate and gun homicides are very low as well.

illumina
11-21-06, 01:38 AM
i agree that the statement is ambiguous, and i agree that all citizens have the right to bear arms, but how many well regulated militias, other than the United States army, do you see walking around?

Switzerland issues all military aged male citizens an assault rifle to keep at home and practice with on a regular basis, they do not have a federal army. to me thats a well regulated militia, they have a low crime rate and gun homicides are very low as well.

The United States Army itself isn't a militia per'se that I'm aware of, but the Army National Guard, which is trained by Army TRADOC happens to be a federal regulated militia, and is also considered a component of the Army. In effect, the NG is basically another unit of the Army Reserve...

It should also be known that there are state militias that are federally recgonized, but I'll be damned if I know which states have them, and which groups of nuts (Waco Texas) aren't recognized by the feds...:p

c5 rv
11-21-06, 07:49 AM
A couple of good sources of gun law information:

http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/

http://www.nraila.org/

On gun safety programs by the worldwide leader on the topic:

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/index.asp

JimHare
11-21-06, 08:36 AM
Gun control doesn't work. That's the biggest problem with it. Whether or not you personally support private ownership of guns is immaterial.

The central premise of most gun control advocates is illogical and incorrect. Their argument that strict gun control or the outright banning of private ownership is necessary to stem the 'tide of violence' ignores the reality that most crimes that are committed with guns, are committed with guns that were obtained illegally in the first place. Statistically, very few gun-related crimes are commited with legally obtained weapons.

Supporters of gun control point to countries like Japan or England where the per capita incidence of gun-related crimes is much lower than in the US - the flaw with this statistical evidence is that they are looking at societies where the historical precedence is much different as well.

American society has a long, and admittedly sometimes tragic, history of firearm use. The homogeneity of our society is far different from that of Japan which until recently was a strongly controlled, very strictly organized feudal monarchy with specific roles for every class of person, or England which is a much smaller, much less historically violent society.

I do not personally own a gun at this time, but I think the idea that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" has a very strong logical base. If we can agree that where any demand exists, a supply will satisfy that demand, it's only common sense.

My other problem with gun control is the question of "who decides who gets guns?" - I'm not a big fan of government control of anything, much less defensive firepower. I hesitate to leave ownership of firearms only in the hands of Washington power brokers.

I don't know of any statistical evidence to support my theory, but I would imagine that a community that supported responsible gun ownership, encouraged firearms training and practice, and allowed citizens to carry firearms for personal protection, would see a major decrease in aggresive crimes perpetrated by criminals who could no longer be assured that their potential victims would be powerless to fight back.

Gun control advocates frequently point to such things as gang wars, drug-lord shootouts and other 'splashy' crimes to support their stance, but neglect to consider the fact that these incidents are nearly always performed with illegally obtained weapons (and are often much related to the also foolish "war on drugs" in the first place).

I believe that in a society where there are not already underlying, historical, long-held factional conflicts (such as in Afghanistan or other tribal societies), firearm ownership should be a right and privilege, subject to stanard licensing, training, and educational guidelines.

CIWS
11-21-06, 09:01 AM
i could counter argue that point with fact brought up in another classmates research.

statistically, armed victims of such crimes are more likely to be hurt or hurt themselves than unarmed victims...

why, most of the people who buy weapons "for self protection" dont take the time to properly educate themselves on proper gun use and safety, also they dont take the time to familiarize themselves with the weapon and become comfortable with it, so they become nervous when it comes time to use it. they either freeze up and get shot, or pull the trigger at the wrong time and shoot themselves <---opinion

I cannot say this isn't true, a lot of folks go buy a firearm and never learn how to properly use it and/or be safe with it. However I can also use this argument with a vehicle. How many people don't know how to drive properly/safely, or choose to jeopardize that by becoming distracted with cell phones or driving while intoxicated ? Compare safety stats in that arena. Number of people shot trying to protect themselves with firearms they bought for protection, or simply having an accident with it vs the number of injuries and deaths by people driving drunk, distracted, or road rage. Also now add in the growing problem with the elderly driving and running into people. In any situation where a great responsibility is given it must also be practiced. Whether it's with a vehicle or a firearm.

Criminals do not pay attention to laws, that's why they are criminals. Pass any law and the bad guys will still aquire firearms. Look at places like England and Japan where they are outlawed or very restricted. There are still guns and violence committed with them. To pass laws and restrict them only works when individuals are willing to respect those laws.
But let's say I'm a nutbag intent upon harming or killing others. (scenario) My boss has gone and done something to really make me mad and I've chosen revenge. However we live in a "perfect" world in which firearms have been outlawed and I have no way of buying one or aquiring it on the black market. So what choices would I then have ? I could use a Knife, Machete, Chainsaw, or Axe and chop you up into pieces. So let's outlaw those and in our perfect world they are gone too. Next I could simply climb into my SUV and run you and several others over or down and then jump out and finish you off with a hammer. Ok we need to outlaw SUVs, they gone. How about I go down to the grocery store and purchase any number of off the shelf chemicals and construct an explosive device that not only explodes but also releases a toxic / poisonous gas that blisters your lungs at the same time so incase you do survive you'll need serious medical attention for the rest of your life. So now do we outlaw grocery stores ?

The point to all of that is really simple. If you have an individual intent upon causing harm to others we live in a society in which there are plenty of methods for them to accomplish this even with all firearms outlawed. But we also know we don't live in a "perfect" world and despite any laws passed almost anything can still be purchased on the black market if someone wants it, and only the law abiding citizen is going to heed the laws passed.

With gun ownership also comes a great responsibility. But not everyone chooses to properly exercise that responsibility anymore than they do with their car, prescription drugs, etc. In all of your stats gathering go and look up how many people die each year from the mis-application of prescription meds by the very people trained to give them, doctors and nurses. I know it's greater than the number of folks who die from using illegal drugs. Where's the practice of responsibility in that case ? Like most things it's not the access to it that kills, it's the ignorance of it.

EcSTSatic
11-21-06, 09:02 AM
It's a stretch, but watch the movie Red Dawn. The first thing invaders did was go to the courthouse to determine who had guns to be confiscated. They understood that this was a serious threat to their occupation plan.

Gun control is not the answer. What's next, knives, bats? More people get killed in cars, maybe we should have to ride in buses.

OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 10:34 AM
excellent responses, thanks guys

malcolm
11-21-06, 11:41 AM
What gun control means to me is the ability to hit what I am aiming at.

RobertCTS
11-21-06, 01:13 PM
I'm a member of the National Rifle Association. I own 2 9mm pistols and a shot gun. I attend a shooting range to practice. I do not hunt but enjoy the experience of target shooting. There are many more lethal weapons than a hand gun which can be easily purchased. Ever heard of a Zip Gun? Anyone can quickly make one and kill someone. Gun Control is a political toy as is Birth Control.

Spyder
11-21-06, 01:25 PM
Piece of radio antenae, reinforced and wrapped with a rimfire round can EASILY be built and used to kill someone. Robert is right.
I too am a firearms owner. Probably more so than anyone else on this forum, with one possible exception.

I'm not going to get too deep into this one because, as the subject was cleared through a mod and it was requested that it not become too political, I feel that I won't be able to adequately defend my views, beliefs and statements, whether it be through indisputable facts or any other means, without this thread being closed. Good luck on your project and, if you feel like it, I'd be interested in reading the final product, if you wouldn't mind throwing it up here to share!

OffThaHorseCEO
11-21-06, 03:18 PM
im workin on it now, its due tonite and ill definitely post for a proofreading prior to turning it in.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-21-06, 10:01 PM
Damn this looks like some good reading, too bad I cannot pay attention to anything tonight, my mind is going like a mile a minute, seven different ways at once.

Ranger
11-21-06, 10:27 PM
"statistically, armed victims of such crimes are more likely to be hurt or hurt themselves than unarmed victims..."


That sounds like something right out of the Brady/Kennedy camp. The very people who would ban all guns if they could are surrounded by armed guards. I think in reality, the opposite is true. When Florida passed the first conealed carty law, the nay sayers predicted rivers of blood in the streets and shoot outs at the OK corral, but infact I believe their crime rate actually fell.

Speaking of banning, remember prohibition? That ban didn't work either.

FastCTS
11-21-06, 10:30 PM
GUNS Law-Abiding Citizens: You feel you need one or just want one, buy one. Take classes on gun safety and when you can use it for protection.

Bad Guys: They already have one and don't care about the laws.

Guns----I don't need no stinking guns. (Photo touch up)
:thumbsup:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-21-06, 10:34 PM
My brother and I both took a gun safety course when we were 12 and 14, I intend on buying a firearm at some point in my life, and retaking the course to refresh my memory.

Eric Kahn
11-21-06, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by The United States Constitution
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed



To properly understand the 2nd amendment (which is an individual right, like the other 9 amendments in the Bill of Rights), you have to study the meaning of the words used at the time it was written.
"Regulated" at the time and in this usage means "controlled" and the method of control invisioned by the writers of the constitutions (A bunch of rebels who won against their old Gov.) was that the citizens of the new country would be as well armed as any Gov. troops as a form of control against tyrany, something they had rebeled against

and if the militia argument is brought up, the constitution also defines "the militia" as "every able bodied man" in the country

at the time the constitution was written, there were no police forces, there was a sheriff or the like in each town and when a crime was commited he would gather armed townspeople to assist him in bringing the criminals to justice, this style of law enforcement continued into the mid 1800's

I own several guns and occasionally terrorize some innocent pieces of paper at a local range, I do not hunt and I do have a concealed carry permit

and it is funny that although the gun control crowd preaches blood in the streets and dodge city when ever a concealed carry law comes up for vote, areas with such laws have a reduction in crime while the 2 countries that most recently pretty much outlawed private gun ownership, Australia and Canada have seen an encrease in violent crimes and murder and Japan where gun ownership is virtually impossible is seeing an increase in gun crimes

Eric Kahn
11-21-06, 10:47 PM
FastCTS, is that your gun collection?

Spyder
11-22-06, 02:14 AM
There is not a single incident of a state having concealed carry weapons permits being easily earned and having a corresponding rise in violent crime. In fact, EVERY state that issues a fair amount of CCW permits has a DECLINE in violent crime and victims. I can't quote to any specific source on this, but it is well known...I have seen its research many times over in many places...

And yes, I carry (legally) everywhere I go, unless I'm going to a bar or a state/federal building. At the post office, I leave it under the seat, locked.

Spyder
11-22-06, 02:15 AM
And FastCTS, I HOPE that's not your collection...being in Commiefornia, as some like to call it, half, if not more, of those are illegal here... ... ...

Koooop
11-22-06, 02:25 AM
An armed society is a polite society.

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Charlton Heston is my president!

RobertCTS
11-22-06, 06:02 AM
FastCTS, is that your gun collection?

Eric,
FYI, FastCTS is a retired CA Cop. It might explain his unusual gun collection.

P-Funk
11-22-06, 08:47 AM
An armed society is a polite society.

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Charlton Heston is my president!

:werd: :highfive:

FastCTS
11-22-06, 11:00 AM
"And FastCTS, I HOPE that's not your collection...being in Commiefornia, as some like to call it, half, if not more, of those are illegal here"... ... ...

"Eric,
FYI, FastCTS is a retired CA Cop. It might explain his unusual gun collection."

They are part of my collection, all legal/registered many years ago with Ca. D.O.J. and the picture is a photo-shop job to make them look shorted then what they are. I started collecting years ago when Ca. started to think about restrictions on gun ownership. I'm former USMC and cop so I have to like firearms.:thumbsup:

FastCTS
11-22-06, 11:07 AM
An armed society is a polite society.

I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Charlton Heston is my president!

:yeah:

c5 rv
11-22-06, 11:52 AM
I hate to bring this up, but given the liberal bent of many professors, a pro-second amendment paper may ensure that you get a poor grade.

Jesda
11-22-06, 02:13 PM
http://www.knitemare.org/cats/270911970_db35fdd4ca.jpg

Spyder
11-22-06, 02:14 PM
^ ^ ^ ^

Has definately happened to ME before...

Spyder
11-22-06, 02:15 PM
Damn you Jesda! Half a second sooner, I'd have been on top! :D

dp102288
11-22-06, 11:32 PM
^^ yeah he likes to jump in anf f**k things up! :D :p

I want a gun permit, but I am hesitant about actually getting one. Maybe I need to give it more time. I def want to take a safety coursr or something though, never had any formal instruction.

Spyder
11-22-06, 11:49 PM
Gotta be 21 for handguns, dontcha? Maybe different in your state...

Find yourself a local shooting range and inquire with the rangemaster about any sort of familiarization courses, training or schooling that they offer. Gun people are great...always looking to add more to their ranks, so they're almost always very friendly and open...and it IS ridiculous amounts of fun to just hit the range and assault dead trees pressed into sheets. Fun. :)

dp102288
11-23-06, 08:47 AM
I think it is 21 for a handgun, but 18 for a rifle or shotgun. Which begs the question...why can I get a shotgun, but I can't get a pistol? is it that I can't conceal a shotgun? Get me a saw, I've seen how to properly cut off a shoutgun...

I think one day after the semester is over, I will go to a gun shop. Get some info, signup for a class, talk to some people. That way I will make sure I want to actually get the permit.

CIWS
11-23-06, 09:37 AM
I think it is 21 for a handgun, but 18 for a rifle or shotgun. Which begs the question...why can I get a shotgun, but I can't get a pistol? is it that I can't conceal a shotgun? Get me a saw, I've seen how to properly cut off a shoutgun...

Yes it's because of the concelment factor. However you cut down that rifle or shotgun below a certain overall length of the weapon and/or barrel length and you have now entered the realm of the Class III firearm and welcome to a Federal Offense, without a Class III permit.

Spyder
11-23-06, 12:36 PM
"Destructive weapons", although cool and GREAT fun...usually are very tough to legally obtain...

And yea, the concealability, as CIWS, is one of the main reasons. Also the public stigma of a handgun plays a large part in it. Handguns are one of the worst offensive weapons ever, they just don't have enough power, but the public has been told that they are "evil" and that they, themselves, without the help of a criminal pulling the trigger, kill people so they've become, to many, a symbol of terror, fear and death.

Eric Kahn
11-23-06, 11:50 PM
at least 6 of the guns I own are illegal in CA and I have one more that is also illegal in CA on order, it would be 2 but I can not afford the FN P90 right now

Spyder
11-24-06, 02:48 AM
Sure ain't easy to buy stuff most other states that you can't even think of owning here... ... ...

Spyder
11-24-06, 02:49 AM
Ok....that made no sense...

If you're not in CA, it sure ain't hard to buy stuff that you can't even think of owning here.

Or something.

That is all.

Koooop
11-24-06, 11:24 AM
at least 6 of the guns I own are illegal in CA and I have one more that is also illegal in CA on order, it would be 2 but I can not afford the FN P90 right now

Don't worry, Nancy Pelosi will be dropping off some good wholesome
San Francisco family values on your state soon. :thumbsup: Enjoy those weapons while you can.

Rumor is out that it's gonna be illegal to be straight in California. I'll just put some show tunes in the CD player for cover.