: A tug-boat to tow the Goat...



Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-17-06, 02:02 AM
...What should it be?

#1) A 1996-1999 Yukon 2wd 2-door?
Pros: An Escalade conversion would be too cool on a 2-door, and we'll see about a Whipple for grins.
Cons: Good luck finding one with all the options that doesn't have a billion miles on it. Fuel economy is dreadful in these things (I had one).

#2) A 1993-1996 Fleetwood V4P?
Pros: With a 7000lbs. towing capacity, I'd make it to the track in comfort and style. Tows like a truck, and uses fuel like a car - I like that.
Cons: It's a 4-door. A '93 will require a 454 TBI transplant, and I'm not sure how involved that would be, but the results would be a riot.

#3) A 1980-1982 Coupe DeVille/Fleetwood Coupe?
Pros: Updated with all the goodies from a '90-'92, and a warmed-over 425 would make a killer package.
Cons: Updating all the goodies from a '90-'92 and making it all work with a TBI 425 may kill me.

So what do you think?

Note to the Mods: If this is in the wrong section, I appologize, and ask that it be moved to the appropriate section (but you have to give your opinion on a tow-rig first [please] :thumbsup: ). Thanks, PRG04

ShadowLvr400
11-17-06, 03:07 AM
The 94-96 Fleetwood would be a strong option in my book. Another one, would be hunt down a late 90's Dodge Ram with the Cummins Diesel in it. That I6 is as strong as they come, and tolerable on fuel sippage. Plus, with some tweaks, it can scoot quite well, and a nice tow rig is a good show vehicle too. But, I have a weakness for the late 90's Rams.

Wiseguy2
11-17-06, 03:09 AM
I'd second the Fleetwood and have been toying with the idea of buying one as a tow vehicle (Was thinking like a Roadmaster Wagon or something but they cant tow as much) to haul the track/race car around.

It's got a heck of a lot going for it too compared to the older car and it's not too terrible on fuel to boot.

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-17-06, 03:35 AM
The 94-96 Fleetwood would be a strong option in my book. Another one, would be hunt down a late 90's Dodge Ram with the Cummins Diesel in it. That I6 is as strong as they come, and tolerable on fuel sippage. Plus, with some tweaks, it can scoot quite well, and a nice tow rig is a good show vehicle too. But, I have a weakness for the late 90's Rams.

I love the Cummins motor. Good mpg, a stout motor stock, and I've seen them modded to run mid-10's in the 1/4 (nothing like seeing a 4x4 on four slicks), but I buy American, and Dodge now has very significant investments in Germany. Before anyone says anything about my GTO being from Aussie, I'll nip that in the butt right now: I bought it at a Pontiac dealer (twice). It's a re-badged Holden, and Holden is a division of GM, and GM is American enough for me. End rant.

Spyder
11-17-06, 11:12 AM
Looking through the latest Car Craft, they have a section which shows just how "American" many cars are...based on the amount of money that is spent here in the states and the jobs given and the production of parts and so on and so forth. Chrysler is the highest at, if I remember right, 78 percent. GM products are in third or forth at 74%, which means that buying Chrysler still helps out our US economy more than buying GM. Hondas are actually as high as 59%...I'll have to dig up the article and post it here...interesting stuff, actually.

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-17-06, 02:41 PM
Dodge was bought by the Nazis. I won't buy a German car.

...Because I didn't say it the first time, and now I think we can get back on topic.

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-17-06, 03:43 PM
I'm all grumpy now. I didn't want to discuss what makes an American car American, and the economics behind it. People are talking like Toyota has done us this BIG favor by building in the U.S. Open your eyes people! They did that to avoid taxes, and guess who eats that in the end...the line-worker on pay-day - the same poor idiot that welcomed Toyota into NASCAR trucks, and allowed Toyota to pace NASCAR races, and I'm sure will eventually cave to allow Toyota stock cars on the track; depreciating the authenticity of an American race (although Dodge is not American and they race there too, but at least they USED to be American, so we can at least excuse that on tradition). Try getting a Cadillac into Japan sometime. I was there for 3 years - I saw one (exactly 1). It was a '93-'96 Fleetwood owned by a local gangster/drug dealer, because he was the only one that could afford the taxes on it. I would tow my car with an RX8 before I bought a Dodge. Ford bought Mazda, and weather you're talking about an American car assembled in Japan, or a German car that's assembled state-side, economics will shine through in the end. Money follows the path of least resistance (think: "trickling down"), and I buy American. End rant.

Eric Kahn
11-17-06, 04:05 PM
If you are going to do the 80 to 82 caddy, just go all the way and swap a 500 into it and it will tow anything

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-17-06, 04:35 PM
If you are going to do the 80 to 82 caddy, just go all the way and swap a 500 into it and it will tow anything

Gas mileage, man. An extra 75 cubes would need to be fed, and a 425 would more than do it.

Spyder
11-17-06, 05:04 PM
But its not a 500. It just wouldn't be anywhere NEAR as cool as a 500, and the extra two mpg shouldn't matter when you're hauling anyways, eh.

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-17-06, 06:04 PM
It just wouldn't be anywhere NEAR as cool as a 500, and the extra two mpg shouldn't matter...

...He's got a point.

DaveSmed
11-18-06, 12:36 AM
The 500 will definitely get the job done, but i'd look into if the rest of the car is up to towing. Start adding brake upgrades, suspension upgrades and all that fun stuff on top of an engine swap and its a lot just to have a cool tow vehicle. Add fuel injection, so theres a fuel pump, standalone, etc. If you want a cool tow vehicle, go with the Fleetwood. Alternately, if you can score a commercial chassis car you'll be set! those things are Chevy truck/Cadillac crossbreeds. Though many people tend to balk at the idea of using a hearse to tow trailers for some reason...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-18-06, 10:38 AM
Why not just buy a '75-'76 Fleetwood or deVille with the 500? It would make it so much easier.

dp102288
11-18-06, 09:14 PM
I hope I didn't miss it, but what are you looking to spend?

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-18-06, 11:05 PM
Why not just buy a '75-'76 Fleetwood or deVille with the 500? It would make it so much easier.

I had a '76 FWB w/ a 500 in it...It was a tripple black beaty, but NOW we're talking gas-mileage! I don't ever want to have to measure my fuel efficiency in gallons per mile, again. I never said 500. That was a suggestion brought about later. I think I like the 425. It's 100lbs. lighter, 75ci smaller, it still pulls like a mule, and you can still get all the goodies that go with having a big-inch Caddy motor (intake, cam, ect. ). I'd certainly go with EFI one way or another, but I haven't done all my homework, and that's especially critical here because I'm a fan of using stock-type stuff (I love it when people ask, "Did it come like that?" ). I'm familiar with FI parts and how they function - just not sure how they function all together. In other words, I have a great basic foundation, but I'm still hunting details, so if you have a favorite tech site on electro-fuel-infection, you're welcome to share in my direction, and I'd be greatful for it.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-18-06, 11:22 PM
So what kind of mileage did your '76 get? Something in the area of 9/14?

Just get a 425 powered 77-79 D-Body. Rick's (Night Wolf) dad used to tow his boat with his '77 Coupe deVille. That '77 did a better job than his '86 Bronco with the 351 did!

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-19-06, 12:33 AM
I hope I didn't miss it, but what are you looking to spend?

'96-'99 Yukon: 2-dr, 2wd, leather, dual power seats, > 100k miles
$4,500-$7,500
+ $4k-$6k in converting it into a very authentic-style Escalade
I wonder if they'd let ask questions in the Escalade section. Naw, I guess that wouldn't be fair, huh?

'93-'96 Fleetwood Brougham: P4V, leather, > 100k miles
(unsure about options on the new[er] Caddys)
$3,500-$5,000
+ $1,500-$3,500 454 swap or LT1 stuff, and whatever a Riv console is.

'80-'82 Coupe: NO Calais, leather (d'Elegance?), any mileage, good/great cond. (again I'll have to research desired options)
$1,500-$5,000
+ $2k-$5k in donor cars and manuals

I know that the '94-'96 FWB LT1 sounds like the "most bang for the buck", but this is actually the least apealing because it seems so blah to me. I think I would have to chop it into a coupe to be truely happy with it...Yes! A '93-'96 Coupe would RULE!..But now we're talking real $. I'm gonna go look for pics.
It is a broad price range, but I'm about to start another semster of JC and I'll be pulling in the GI Bill, as well as Uncle Sam is starting to think that I am "un-employably disabled" which will make my VA check a LOT better. So what would a 26yo batchlor do with a military medical retirement check? Go pack up that TV that's stuck on Speed channel and put it in a four car garage; go to school until Mrs. Right makes me sell some of my hot-rods. What? You mean you wouldn't? Ahh, you're just jealous that they haven't made me grow-up yet.

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-19-06, 12:49 AM
So what kind of mileage did your '76 get? Something in the area of 9/14?

Just get a 425 powered 77-79 D-Body. Rick's (Night Wolf) dad used to tow his boat with his '77 Coupe deVille. That '77 did a better job than his '86 Bronco with the 351 did!

Yeah, I got like 9 - Doing 65-70 on the highway, but I needed rings (and rods later). I changed oil at a shop while I had it, and you know what they say about the shoemaker's children - They're barefoot. Same concept applied: I changed everyone's oil but my own. :duh:

You can't update the front-end to a '90-'92 on a '77-'79; the body has different curves from what I understand. Otherwise; I like the top rear of the '77-'79 Coupe DeVille and the fins better anyway, but I'll settle for an '80-'82 Fleetwood coupe to get some-what similar bulkey roof line like the older Coupe DeVilles had. If I could give an older Coupe DeVille a facelift, that would be a certain preference.

I'll say it again: I love it when car-guys ask me, "What year is that thing?" and the not-so car-guys say, "I've never seen that. Did it come like that from the factory?"

davesdeville
11-19-06, 05:46 AM
If you put a nice 500 in a 77-84 RWD...

Well you wouldn't want your tow car to be quicker than the race car now would you. :p

dp102288
11-19-06, 07:38 AM
^^ lol good point!

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-19-06, 11:34 AM
Yeah, I got like 9 - Doing 65-70 on the highway, but I needed rings (and rods later). Yeah, but thats on a bad 500. I've read reviews on the '70s Eldorados, and they said they'd average 11-14 MPG in normal driving, with the high compression 500. I'd expect something like 9 city/15 highway out of a good running, low compression 500. For a 425, Night Wolf said his '79 SDV would get 13 city, 17-18 highway.


If you put a nice 500 in a 77-84 RWD...

Well you wouldn't want your tow car to be quicker than the race car now would you. :p

Seriously, a bone stock 190hp 500 out of a 5200 lb '75 Cadillac...how quick would that make a 3900 lb '83 Coupe deVille? The HT4100 was "good" for a high 18 second 1/4 mile...so the low compression 500 would be what....a high 15?

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-19-06, 03:02 PM
Yeah, but thats on a bad 500. I've read reviews on the '70s Eldorados, and they said they'd average 11-14 MPG in normal driving, with the high compression 500. I'd expect something like 9 city/15 highway out of a good running, low compression 500. For a 425, Night Wolf said his '79 SDV would get 13 city, 17-18 highway.



Seriously, a bone stock 190hp 500 out of a 5200 lb '75 Cadillac...how quick would that make a 3900 lb '83 Coupe deVille? The HT4100 was "good" for a high 18 second 1/4 mile...so the low compression 500 would be what....a high 15?

I would have to use the higher compression heads/pistons on a 472/500, but that's still only 400hp stock, and I had a buddy that broke into the low 14's in his '70 Eldo-rod, but that's still a full second slower than my car is stock. 17-18mpg is awsome mileage to get from a big-inch Cad. Is NightWolf fuel injected? I'll look into getting a re-calibrated '90-'92 ECM to manage a FI 425 (that's gonna take some reading), and possibly mate-up a 4L80E to get the gallons to go even farther.

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-19-06, 09:26 PM
Nightwolf's was the standard 180hp 4bbl 425.

I was reading my '77 Eldorado brochure tonight, and it lists the towing capacity with the optional tow package is 6000 lbs. More than enough to tow a GTO and a trailer. I'd assume it would be even higher with a RWD car. I know the 350TBI '92 Broughams can tow 7,000 lbs.

davesdeville
11-20-06, 02:48 AM
71-96 RWD Cads can usually tow a max of 7000 lbs.


Seriously, a bone stock 190hp 500 out of a 5200 lb '75 Cadillac...how quick would that make a 3900 lb '83 Coupe deVille? The HT4100 was "good" for a high 18 second 1/4 mile...so the low compression 500 would be what....a high 15?

Put a low compression 500 on an engine dyno and see if it says 190hp. Heck, even on a chassis dyno it should still be in the mid-low 200s. Most will dyno (engine dyno) ~300hp, around 490-500ft.lbs. The 10:1 version is worth 20hp and similar torque.

With a non-crappy exhaust system on it, I would expect a 77-84 to do at WORST a 15 flat (density altitude corrected of course.) Especially if you left the 3.42 gears in a 4100 car.

It wouldn't beat an LSx GTO, but then again I didn't say a stock 500.

dp102288
11-20-06, 09:32 AM
Damn, I never could imagine one of the older Caddys towing a GTO. If you do, take lots of pics! That would be classic!

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-22-06, 01:31 AM
Damn, I never could imagine one of the older Caddys towing a GTO. If you do, take lots of pics! That would be classic!

I'm starting to lean more towards the 2-door Escalade conversion (that's what I've been researching lately, anyway). The body work would be a lot of bolt-on panelling and 'glassing together body side moldings. But then again, I can't shake the idea of a hot-rod Coupe DeVille. It would be a lot cheaper to aquire and build. I'll be doing research on the TBI 350 and TBI 425 systems for a while before I make a final decision.

Leeb
11-22-06, 02:05 AM
Why not just buy a '75-'76 Fleetwood or deVille with the 500? It would make it so much easier.

... maybe 'cause the Fleetwood/Deville wasn't a 500, but a 472... Eldo alone had the 500.:bouncy:

Koooop
11-22-06, 02:41 AM
Leeb, you must've missed the Triple Black '76 Fleetwood Brougham at the Palm Springs auction last weekend, it had a 500 in it.


Drop a ZZ502 in which ever Cad you pick, that'll git 'er done.

If you want the monster tow Caddy I'd vote for a 1976 500ci FI DeVille.

davesdeville
11-22-06, 03:29 AM
... maybe 'cause the Fleetwood/Deville wasn't a 500, but a 472... Eldo alone had the 500.:bouncy:

ALL 75-76s were 500s (save the 76 Seville,) the last 472 was in 1974.


Drop a ZZ502 in which ever Cad you pick, that'll git 'er done.

Blasphemer!


Call up Richard Potter or Marty Lane and have them build you a Cad 500 with more power for cheaper.

Leeb
11-22-06, 04:45 AM
Leeb, you must've missed the Triple Black '76 Fleetwood Brougham at the Palm Springs auction last weekend, it had a 500 in it.


Drop a ZZ502 in which ever Cad you pick, that'll git 'er done.

If you want the monster tow Caddy I'd vote for a 1976 500ci FI DeVille.


If it did, it wasn't original.

Leeb
11-22-06, 04:52 AM
ALL 75-76s were 500s (save the 76 Seville,) the last 472 was in 1974.....

I'll check into that... I don't believe that is correct, but I may have been to fixated on the eldos at that time...

I seem to remember that in 76 they had taken everything to the 425 except for the seville ( I believe, a 350) and the eldo (500)...

:bouncy:

Koooop
11-22-06, 05:52 PM
If it did, it wasn't original.

Was so! :nyanya:

http://www.100megsfree4.com/cadillac/cad1970/cad76.htm

'77 introduced the 425

Leeb
11-22-06, 08:08 PM
Was so! :nyanya:

http://www.100megsfree4.com/cadillac/cad1970/cad76.htm

'77 introduced the 425

:eek: :eek: :eek: Please take note! :eek: :eek: :eek:

After checking my sources, I will admit that Koop is RIGHT, and I am WRONG!
It does state that, in 75 until 77, they put the 500 in everything but the Seville which had a 350...

Open mouth, insert foot.... and Cadillac book. :bouncy:

dp102288
11-22-06, 10:56 PM
^^ Hey, at least everyone was cool about it and no one got pissy.

Escalade conversion...I am sure you would get a lots of help from the board so keep us posted!

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-22-06, 11:41 PM
:wacky: You guys are great. So I was just messing around, and I had another thought. The '83-'85 Coupe DeVille had the crumby 4100 engine, but since I was already planning on updating to the '90-'92 ECM (and a lot more), then a SBC (corp. motor) could be another avenue. The '93 BBC-swap that I was talking refering to, had a pipe-dream 572 because the displacement is too close to be ignored.
"What's that Caddy got in it?"
"A five seventytwo."
"A four seventytwo?"
"No..."
Okay, you get it. After I say 572 big-block, I'm going to preach mpg. Hows that for hypocritical. I want EFI and overdrive. A properly built tow-rig will suck gas no matter what you do, but that doesn't mean that you have to make it worse with a carburator and a three speed transmission. I'm going to try to make everything look like the General should have built it. The '83-'85 SBC swap would be up-sized to a 400 to allow maximum ci in the small package, and the management system along with the 700R4 would bolt right up. The reason I decided SBC where the 4100 goes, and a BBC where the small-block goes is becasue that is how different is done in my book. Would a 400SBC in a '83-'85 Coupe change any opinions?

Koooop
11-23-06, 02:10 AM
:wacky: You guys are great. So I was just messing around, and I had another thought. The '83-'85 Coupe DeVille had the crumby 4100 engine, but since I was already planning on updating to the '90-'92 ECM (and a lot more), then a SBC (corp. motor) could be another avenue. The '93 BBC-swap that I was talking refering to, had a pipe-dream 572 because the displacement is too close to be ignored.
"What's that Caddy got in it?"
"A five seventytwo."
"A four seventytwo?"
"No..."
Okay, you get it. After I say 572 big-block, I'm going to preach mpg. Hows that for hypocritical. I want EFI and overdrive. A properly built tow-rig will suck gas no matter what you do, but that doesn't mean that you have to make it worse with a carburator and a three speed transmission. I'm going to try to make everything look like the General should have built it. The '83-'85 SBC swap would be up-sized to a 400 to allow maximum ci in the small package, and the management system along with the 700R4 would bolt right up. The reason I decided SBC where the 4100 goes, and a BBC where the small-block goes is becasue that is how different is done in my book. Would a 400SBC in a '83-'85 Coupe change any opinions?


http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?perfPackages=1&pkgid=20

Go there and drool a bit. I put the ZZ383 425/460 in my Corvette, it looks pretty stock under the hood (unless you notice all the Alum). They make an HT383 that is supposed to be the perfect SBC tow motor. Sure there are some cheaper places to buy "comparable" motors (so the makers claim) but you can't beat the GM warranty and piece of mind that comes with.

Somewhere in there is a ZZ572 :wacky:

davesdeville
11-24-06, 10:15 PM
If you want a motor with some low end and decent fuel economy a Cad 425 is what you should be after.

Leeb
11-25-06, 01:32 AM
If you want a motor with some low end and decent fuel economy a Cad 425 is what you should be after.

I'll second that...
It's not much on the HP department, but it's got the torque to get your goat from a standstill... :thumbsup:

Koooop
11-25-06, 07:39 PM
I used several of the "5" of 425 DeVilles I've owned as tow cars for boats ranging from about 2,500lbs-5,800lbs. In 1983 they were the best tow car available.

They are SLUGS! :hide:

More than once I thought I'd need to use my boat to push the damn thing up the Cajon Pass! My memory says my 368 SDV was a better tow car.

Hate to say it, but a stock 4.6 Lincoln Town car will pull circles around a stock 425 DeVille. I admit, after about 20mid summer trips (w/ 5,800lbs in tow) to Lake Mead from So. Cal, the TC sounded like it was full of gumballs! The TC could HOLD 50MPH up the pass, mid summer (115+ degrees) with the boat. Upside for my 425 tow cars is not one of them had any drive train failures, just bullet proof.

I went to the dark side a couple of times, I drank from the well, it was sweet. But I was brought back into the light and have seen the error of my ways. Please forgive me, it's all GM now.

(Bet I get some hate mail for this)

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-25-06, 08:15 PM
LOL! Hey don't get me wrong, I like the 4.6L Town Cars, especially the 1993 & 94's, but tow better than a 425???? I dunno...

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-26-06, 03:21 AM
...I like the 4.6L Town Cars, especially the 1993 & 94's, but tow better than a 425???? I dunno...

ditto :nono:

...So I was doin some digging, and I want to know what you think. This is the hood I've got picked out for my GOAT:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/timmy2kegs/gto01.jpg

...And I found this hood for Denali/Escalade:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/timmy2kegs/shakerhood.jpg

...And I could finish single-side exit duals with these to get that "almost factory" look:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/timmy2kegs/flo-15302.jpg

There are so many parts out there that bolt right up to a truck, that it's not fair for a bolt-on junky. All the images of what each ride would look like all done-up in my head, but the Escalade is the only one that the aftermarket seems to keep up with...:confused:

dp102288
11-26-06, 11:31 AM
I like the GTO hood and exhaust! :thumbsup:

Koooop
11-26-06, 05:55 PM
The hood rocks, so do the colors!

Sorry to confirm it, but my 4.6 TC would out tow any of my 425 tow cars, even my modified '77.

Phantom&RedGoat2004
11-26-06, 10:46 PM
The hood rocks, so do the colors!

Sorry to confirm it, but my 4.6 TC would out tow any of my 425 tow cars, even my modified '77.

When you said it once, I all but called BS. You said it twice, and now I'm wondering: Is it the chassis that made all the difference? I know the 425 could tug a 4.6 Ford motor to the death. Is the TC frame/suspension that much better?

I~LUV~Caddys8792
11-26-06, 10:55 PM
I'm intrigued too! Do tell! :)

davesdeville
11-27-06, 12:45 AM
I still call BS, or you can't tune a QJet, or you've got some a modified 4.6 PI TC..

Koooop
11-27-06, 08:36 PM
When you said it once, I all but called BS. You said it twice, and now I'm wondering: Is it the chassis that made all the difference? I know the 425 could tug a 4.6 Ford motor to the death. Is the TC frame/suspension that much better?

You've used a 425 to tow something? NOT. I have, they're slugs when you put heavy load on the back they're okay with a light boat. My Stock 1991 TC 4.6 held 20MPH (without being WOT) more uphill with a much heavier load and it got much better MPG than any of the 425's I owned and used to tow to the river or Powell or Mojave or Mead... Every weekend. I killed more than one car on River runs, but never a 425. There was only one throttle postion when towing with the 425 "Foot on Floor" while being passed by a Ralphs Triple.

Wadda ya want, pictures?

Leeb
12-01-06, 06:53 AM
You've used a 425 to tow something? NOT. I have, they're slugs when you put heavy load on the back they're okay with a light boat. My Stock 1991 TC 4.6 held 20MPH (without being WOT) more uphill with a much heavier load and it got much better MPG than any of the 425's I owned and used to tow to the river or Powell or Mojave or Mead... Every weekend. I killed more than one car on River runs, but never a 425. There was only one throttle postion when towing with the 425 "Foot on Floor" while being passed by a Ralphs Triple.

Wadda ya want, pictures?

Well, okay.... if you're gonna offer...:rolleyes:
I suspect it had much to do w/ gear ratios more than anything... the 4.6 woulda been geared lower... which explains the 'gumball effect'.:bouncy: