: GM ready for Toyota Trucks



Blackout
11-07-06, 11:46 AM
http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20061107&Category=AUTO01&ArtNo=611070345&Ref=V2&Profile=1148Q=100&MaxW=500
Toyota

2007 Toyota Tundra Tundra will claim some of the pickup market, but Detroit automaker is confident in its products.

David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON -- General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Robert Lutz said Toyota's redesigned Tundra pickup, hitting showrooms in February, is likely to be a strong seller, but GM doesn't expect to cede much market share to the Asian automaker.

"They'll do well," Lutz said in a brief interview with reporters Monday in Washington, but he doesn't think the Tundra will steal much from GM's full-size truck sales, which add up to about 1 million units annually.

Toyota Motor Corp. will open an $850 million, 2.2-million-square-foot manufacturing facility next week in San Antonio, where the Japanese automaker will begin building the pickups, which are bigger than previous versions of the Tundra and more competitive with GM, Ford and Dodge trucks.With the new Tundra, Toyota is taking on Detroit's Big Three in one of the most profitable vehicle segments, one they have long dominated.

GM, Ford Motor Co. and Dodge parent DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group accounted for about 90 percent of the 2.5 million vehicle full-size pickup truck market last year, led by GM's 935,000 unit sales and Ford's 901,000.
That pecking order is not likely to change even as sales projections vary.

Analysts -- and Ford -- estimate sales of full-size trucks will be down as much as 8 percent to 2.3 million units this year. GM sales chief Mark LaNeve expects sales to "be up slightly next year."

Demand has wavered this year amid volatile gas prices.

Ford's F-series sales -- 901,000 in 2005 -- rose 3 percent in October but are off 10.2 percent for the year. Chevy's big pickup sales are down 10.8 percent through October.

In September, Don Esmond, senior vice president of automotive operations at Toyota Motor Sales USA, told The Detroit News the automaker wants to double Tundra volume with the 2007 model.

Sales of the current Tundra rose 17.1 percent in October, to just over 10,000 units.

Lutz said Toyota was relying on heavy incentives to sell the pickup.
GM's new 2007 Silverado, meanwhile, got off to a strong start with sales up 104 percent last month. The vehicle debuted in mid-October.

"The customers will decide," LaNeve said Monday. "I do know that we have done a sensational job of listening to our customers."

Toyota spokeswoman Denise Morrissey agreed the market will decide, but said the automaker expects to sell 200,000 Tundras next year, up from about 126,000 in 2005. Through October, Toyota has sold about 100,000 Tundras.

Morrissey noted that when Dodge launched a redesigned Ram in 1994, sales tripled as 215,000 buyers switched to Dodge.

"We've been competing with Ford, GM and Dodge for 50 years," Morrissey said. "We know the full-size market is very loyal and smart. Once they get familiar with the Tundra, get to know it, I think they will consider it. Loyalty is definitely key in this market, but it will only get you so far."

Jim Quinlin, a Knoxville, Tenn., Chevrolet dealer, expects the Toyota truck to be a tough competitor.

"They are going to take some share," he said. "But the new Chevy truck is great, so I don't think they'll take too much from us."

David Healy, an auto analyst with Burnham Securities, said Toyota will be a formidable rival, but it won't be easy.

"Toyota is not going to get a lot of the good ol' boys out of the Silverados and F-150s," Healy said. "The idea is mostly these are going to be sold to people who already own Toyotas and are looking to upgrade into that area."

Lutz said when Japanese automakers grabbed significant share in the U.S. car market between 1979 and 1981, Toyota and Honda Motor Co. were building better quality vehicles.

In the truck market, Detroit's Big Three build vehicles of comparable quality to Japanese models, he said, which makes it less likely loyal GM buyers will shift to a foreign nameplate.

dp102288
11-08-06, 10:37 AM
The hardest thing for Toyota will be the brand loyalists. "Oh a truck has to be American brand, or it won't be worth it". That's what Toyota has to convince people to change.

N0DIH
02-06-07, 08:27 PM
I am not fond of them, ugliest thing I have seen in a long time.
They got a long wheelbase, which is good for towing, not for off roading. Payload sucks, they can't hold more than 1500 lbs according to one website, 2000 according to Toyota. My Suburban can carry 3000.

They are doing some things right, large brakes, that is something GM has been sucking at for years. Only the 3/4t had decent ones. The 1/2t (the Tundra is a 1/2t according to Toyota) GM trucks stink for brakes. So it now will force GM to put the Vortec Max in the 1/2t trucks now. With 4.10's too. I think you will see GM react. They have absolutely GOT to get out of this over conservative shell for overall performance.

GM needs to put world class brakes on, world class gearing/engine power. It is why I bought a 3/4t 454 Suburban. Power, YEAH! Gas Mileage, YUK! Towing? YEAH! Braking, YEAH! Even has factory Bilsteins. Yes, a Chevy. It does everything save one thing well, mpg. But they wouldn't allow the 454 on the 1/2t.

Remember all the hoopla on the 454SS, if you wanted one you got stuck with a 3/4t truck. Not the lighter 1/2t. Imagine a 454SS with a tough 4L65E and 4.10's? 13in front brakes sourced from the 3/4t, 12" rotors sourced from the C3500, all with 5x5 bolt pattern. Cheap, easy to do. Given a clean slate they need to make a 496SS truck on the 2007 chassis. They would turn the performance truck world on ear. Give it 4.10's, 10.5" axle only setup to be semifloating not full floating. 6L85E trans and all in a 1/2t. They have all the parts!!!!!

WAKE UP GM!!!! And they wonder why Toyota is knocking on their door of #1 worldwide car maker!

Toyota has a truck that claims 14.8 sec in the quarter. This is embarrassing!

90Brougham350
02-06-07, 08:35 PM
Just because Toyota has a fast truck with good brakes doesn't mean it'll sell well. However, I do agree with you N0DIH on most of what you say. It seems like over and over again GM is too chicken-shit to take a chance and do something great. Still, it's hard to argue against a Ford or Chevy pickup. There's a reason millions of Americans are loyal to their American-built pickups, because they've been good trucks.

Elvis
02-06-07, 09:04 PM
I'd never buy an import truck. Car possibly. Crossover maybe, but not likely.

But NEVER a truck. That's just wrong. Bordering on treason.

N0DIH
02-06-07, 09:10 PM
There are the confused people who will buy them because they have some warped impression that Toyotas are so good. They aren't better, more of that is perception than anything.

As it is I can't believe Toyota has Camry's running in NASCAR this year. I can't believe they allowed that.

Jesda
02-06-07, 09:34 PM
The 1980s are over. Back when people switched to Toyota and Honda passenger cars in droves, GM was building crap like the Cavalier and Celebrity. The only bright spot was the Ford Taurus, until it too fell into mediocrity.

No longer is that the case. There's no compelling reason switch to an ugly truck with a fish face.

Lord Cadillac
02-06-07, 10:06 PM
It's about time there's confidence in domestic vehicles again. Eventually, the sheeple with understand this as well..

yourgmsolutions
02-06-07, 10:54 PM
well. plz guys don't kick my a$$, but I must say on small pick ups. Toyota and Nissan are still the best and they kicking everyone else butt. how I know ? I own 1995 Nissan Hardbody ( bough it Brand New in 1995), now with over 200000 mi on it, still rans like new.
full size trucks, may be GM and Ford are still the best, but as far as small pick ups. No way

N0DIH
02-06-07, 11:28 PM
I can say I can't stand any Ford Ranger that I have ridden in has been less than what I would expect in a truck. Honestly I don't frequent them, so I can't say how good or bad they are, but if they are anything like that Toyota Matrix my wifes niece has, they are less than dirt. Junk.

Jesda
02-06-07, 11:41 PM
well. plz guys don't kick my a$$, but I must say on small pick ups. Toyota and Nissan are still the best and they kicking everyone else butt. how I know ? I own 1995 Nissan Hardbody ( bough it Brand New in 1995), now with over 200000 mi on it, still rans like new.
full size trucks, may be GM and Ford are still the best, but as far as small pick ups. No way

I agree. The old Toyota and Nissan pickups may corrode, but holy crap, they'll keep going long after a nuclear war. My dad has an old one from the early 80s (22r engine) he keeps in the yard for the annual Home Depot run.

N0DIH
02-07-07, 07:48 AM
My 96 Suburban had 235K on it when we sold it due to an accident (It was totaled, we kept it and sold it, it was still running perfectly). Didn't burn oil, didn't leak oil.

We were given a 90 Aerostar E4WD that the body was rusty beyond belief, but after 2-3 transmissions (Ford sucked on transmissions back then), it eventually went to the boneyard with over 275K miles on it. Didn't burn a drop of oil, ran great. Leaked a little, like 1 quart ever 6000 miles, after I ran synthetic through it once, but didn't before that. We drove it with 230K on it from Wisconsin to Toronto, back through Niagra Falls, and back home, didn't have a single problem.

My 91 Bonneville we bought with 58K on it, I put in synthetic in the engine/trans/powersteering. I drove it myself to around 240K, and then we gave it away, and they drove it to over 270K. The fuel pump went out and they couldn't drop the tank so the owner started cutting up the body above the pump to try to get it out. He eventually gave up and the city gave them too much crap so they junked it.

My long term reliability with GM products has been great. The Bonneville got 4 alternators (last one was a Autozone "duralast", which actually did last), 1 wheel bearing, 1 motor mount, and 2 fuel pumps (not including the one it died from, that was #3, the AC Delco factory fuel pump lasted 180K+ miles, NAPA replacement and Autozone replacement didn't not last long, 1 water pump, and 2 batteries over the LIFE of the car. A few sets of brakes/tires, but any car will use those too.

My 91 Cadillac Deville is at 200K now, I sold it at 180K for my Fleetwood, it is running the FACTORY alternator still (I even tore it down to look at them to see what shape the brushes were in, still in great shape), I rebuilt the starter at 150K, and a set of fuel injectors (don't they all need injectors? Those factory ones suck). Again, it got synthetic around 50-60K, engine/trans, and is still running good. No burning at all, some leaks like all 4.x V8's do.

No Japanese car has ever proved to be any better for LONG term 200K+ reliability that what my cars have had.

My mother in law's Toyota Corrolla had to have the starter replaced at 70K, I doctored it up, it lasted another 40K, but still should have been repaired (there is a disc inside that is conductive and spins, it just wore out, not a good design, I think this the Hitachi starter). My wife's niece's 2003 Toyota Matrix had to have the transmission replaced at 60K (Toyota warranty), and is at 155K and having some minor transmission problems again. It had to have the engine replaced @ 155K due to a broken piston. They claim to have run Mobil 1 its whole life and changed oil religiously. I can't verify that, but still, breaking a piston? The interior of that car is so cheap, all compartments except the glove box hang open because the latches are just crap design and won't close anymore. The power window switches mounts are both broken and dangle on the door, most of the dash lights are burned out (radio/climate control side). I am NOT impressed with Toyota quality. The dash material is hard as a rock, everyone seems to think this is good, but honestly, I'll take my old Cadillac dash anyday. Not to mention in an accident if you ever got in an accident and hit it, you would have a massive concussion. My dash is soft and gives. My 91 Deville dash was the nicest.

Toyota does NOT make what I expect in a car, I expect much higher standards.

RJ_W
02-10-07, 11:11 PM
NODIH, a good friend wanted me to ask how that Suburban is doing.:shhh:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-10-07, 11:15 PM
As far as brand new "compact" trucks go....

Ranger- Nope, not good at all IMO, been on the same platform since '93 I think
Colorado/Canyon/ I Series- Good trucks, I like 'em a lot, great engines
Frontier- Meh, don't know too much about em, but like em
Tacoma- My first choice in small truck...even though they're not domestic
Dakota- Say what now?

RJ_W
02-11-07, 07:51 PM
NODIH, I can't answer your PM until AI get 50 posts, but pm me your email, I will get beack to you asap.:thumbsup:

LS1Mike
02-11-07, 08:54 PM
I guess no one here has owned an S-10 with a 4.3. I had a 91 S-10 blazer that went 280,000 miles before I sold it. (I got it with 40,000 miles on it) It is still driving around town today. In the time I owned it, I pulled my 98 Z28 a bunch of times home from the track with it and various other cars. I never had a tranny out or a valve cover off. I changed a fuel pump and a waterpump in all that time. I will put an S-10 4.3 against any import small truck. It will tow more and go longer. A 4.3 is SBC minus two pistons. The imports can't match that for productions numbers and durability.

Next time you are out crusing around count how many 84-03 S-10 anythings you see...
Far more than any import small truck...How many 84 imports trucks do you see...

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-11-07, 09:25 PM
Next time you are out crusing around count how many 84-03 S-10 anythings you see...
Far more than any import small truck...How many 84 imports trucks do you see...

Not as many, but then again, they didn't sell as well. Either way, that 4.3 V6 is a beast, and is as reliable as all hell. Any of the four poppers in the asian trucks of the '80s can't pull nearly as much or as well as that 4.3 can either.
I think the 4.3 is a vastly underrated engine.

N0DIH
02-11-07, 11:29 PM
I haven't had a 4.3, but honestly, I don't seem to hear about reliability problems with them.

So, why hasn't anyone done a 3.75" stroke crank swap in a 4.3? That would make a 283 V6.... or Bored 0.030 over, a 287. I have heard of a 5L V6 Chevy....

Florian
02-11-07, 11:39 PM
I guess no one here has owned an S-10 with a 4.3. I had a 91 S-10 blazer that went 280,000 miles before I sold it. (I got it with 40,000 miles on it) It is still driving around town today. In the time I owned it, I pulled my 98 Z28 a bunch of times home from the track with it and various other cars. I never had a tranny out or a valve cover off. I changed a fuel pump and a waterpump in all that time. I will put an S-10 4.3 against any import small truck. It will tow more and go longer. A 4.3 is SBC minus two pistons. The imports can't match that for productions numbers and durability.

Next time you are out crusing around count how many 84-03 S-10 anythings you see...
Far more than any import small truck...How many 84 imports trucks do you see...

My 4.3 Jimmy is a diehard. Cheap parts everywhere, no issues, reliable as all get out. Ive only had to replace the U-joints at 80K. Thats it! 120 bux in repairs in its life....oh, and 1 set of tires (another 360 bux)....FWIW, GM makes a damn good truck.


F

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-11-07, 11:46 PM
What year Jimmy? I thought they had some issues (suspension I do believe) on the 82-93 style.

LS1Mike
02-12-07, 12:25 AM
Jimmys and S-10 are the same...Suspension is not a problem on them. I have heard of some pitman or idler arms going bad, but that is normal for any make of truck.

LS1Mike
02-12-07, 12:27 AM
I haven't had a 4.3, but honestly, I don't seem to hear about reliability problems with them.

So, why hasn't anyone done a 3.75" stroke crank swap in a 4.3? That would make a 283 V6.... or Bored 0.030 over, a 287. I have heard of a 5L V6 Chevy....

Because no one that I know of makes one for it. You would have to cut down a 350 crank.
Just get a 4.3 out of a Syclone or Typhoon. That should give you plent of extra grunt...:cool2:

I~LUV~Caddys8792
02-12-07, 12:28 AM
Jimmys and S-10 are the same...Suspension is not a problem on them. I have heard of some pitman or idler arms going bad, but that is normal for any make of truck.

Ah that's what it was.

N0DIH
02-12-07, 11:51 AM
The V6 cranks are 120 degree separation not 90 degree, so you can't cut up a V8 crank....

I guess you would have to offset grind a 262 crank, that might help some inches. Ahh, ditch it and drop in a 350!