: Is it possible to lose HP



codewize
11-05-06, 09:24 PM
I just have a simple question. Is it possible to lose HP by installing a CAI? Just wondering, you know how sometimes your car doesn't feel like it takes off as hard as it does other times? I'm feeling like that. I don't see how it's possible unless the PCM is altering the mix to compensate for the additional air flow.

Anyone else experience that?

Ranger
11-05-06, 09:46 PM
I suspect it is. What did you do with the IAT (Intake Air Tempurature) sensor when you installed the CAI?

codewize
11-05-06, 10:11 PM
I didn't do anything to anything. I just removed the old air box and installed the Volant. Is there even such a thing on these cars? I know on the 4.5 there is and on the Brougham but I didn't see any such thing during this install. The car seems to run normal but sometimes it just feel like it's not all there.

Plus the air is being pulled from the same place as the factory box, there just may be more of it available.

Last night I ran against a BMW 5 series something and he walked on me pretty good. Of course we were already over 60 when we started.

Ranger
11-05-06, 10:25 PM
I didn't do anything to anything. I just removed the old air box and installed the Volant. Is there even such a thing on these cars? I know on the 4.5 there is and on the Brougham but I didn't see any such thing during this install. The car seems to run normal but sometimes it just feel like it's not all there.

Plus the air is being pulled from the same place as the factory box, there just may be more of it available.

Last night I ran against a BMW 5 series something and he walked on me pretty good. Of course we were already over 60 when we started.
Yeah, there sure is. Location varied but either on the box or the intake ducting somewhere, you'll find and electrical connector. It plugs into the IAT sensor. It tells the PCM whether you are drawing cold (dense) air or warm air. I assume that varies the injector pulse width.

codewize
11-05-06, 10:32 PM
Well I can tell you there was nothing in the box or connected to the ducting except for the MAF sensor, which is unchanged and still in place.

Ranger
11-05-06, 10:54 PM
What car are you talking about?

chevelle
11-05-06, 11:03 PM
It is easy to loose power with a "cold air intake" on a lot of different cars.

The MAF is very flow sensitive and can easily be thrown off if the ducting before and/or after the MAF is changed. The MAF is calibrated and developed for the OEM air box and ducts and any changes can cause the MAF to read incorrectly and throw off much of the engine calibration.

I have specifically seen 2000/2001 STS's slow down significantly with modifications to the production airbox. The mods involved always would seem to increase flow but would foul up the MAF reading to the point that it would actually cause a loss of power.

codewize
11-06-06, 07:40 AM
Hmm
Ranger; We're talking about the 01 DTS.

So why would they sell these things if they were going to decrease HP? Especially with the N* knowing full well that there's no one on the planet who'll work on the PCM.

Maybe I'll throw away the $250 and put the stock air box back in. This is really pissing me off now, all this hype on these Volant boxes to gain nothing and possibly loose.

Am I going to go through the same thing with the Corsa exhaust or should I save the money on that too?

:rant2:

HITMONEY
11-06-06, 08:27 AM
That sucks.

My Volant paired with my Corsa completely changed my car for the better. It is a completely different car when I nail it on the highway, not that it was bad before... but now it definitley opens some eyes and prompts this question from passengers... "What the F$^&* did you do to this thing!?"

codewize
11-06-06, 09:08 AM
HITMONEY; So then I ask, how is your car different? Or why are the results different?

I'm glad you jumped in here because I think you have the closest car to what I'm doing. Do you think it's a combination of the CAI together with the exhaust? So far you're right. It does suck. Sounds cool but I think it had adverse affect on the power.

HITMONEY
11-06-06, 09:40 AM
I first installed the Volant, I noticed mild gain up top in the RPM range and a whole lotta noise from the new air box.

Then I installed the Corsa. Thats when the car really woke up in the mid to high RPM range. I do think I lost a little bottom end and maybe a little torque down low but when I ride out 2nd or downshift to third at highway speed this sled gets up and gets so much so, it doesn't even feel like the same car and it definitely doesn't sound like it either.

I did a dyno run and you can easily find it in this forum by means of search, but the run was done on a very bad weather day for a N*. High heat and high humidity. I will be doing another run soon as it has cooled off considerably now.

BTW, after you install the Corsa, the noise coming from the Volant will no longer be a factor.

<evil grin>

Ranger
11-06-06, 11:56 AM
Hmm
Ranger; We're talking about the 01 DTS.

So why would they sell these things if they were going to decrease HP? Especially with the N* knowing full well that there's no one on the planet who'll work on the PCM.

Maybe I'll throw away the $250 and put the stock air box back in. This is really pissing me off now, all this hype on these Volant boxes to gain nothing and possibly loose.

Am I going to go through the same thing with the Corsa exhaust or should I save the money on that too?

:rant2:
There is definately an IAT sensor in the intake system somewhere. My '03 DHS is in the duct between the air box and the MAF sensor. Look closely, you'll see it.

As to why they sell them if they will decrease HP. I guess for the same reason
they sell the "Tornado". Too make money, nothing more. Maybe they work on some cars, I really don't know, but I would think that all PCM controled, fuel injected cars would be basicaly the same. Chevelle can probably address that better than I.

Don't know what to tell you about the exhaust, but I have heard that opening the exhaust up will help a bit. How much and whether it is worth it or not, I have no clue. Others who have tried it and documented performance may be able to shed more light on it for you.

dkozloski
11-06-06, 02:33 PM
Stroker McGurk says, "You can't feel less than 10% in the seat of your pants." If you don't remember him your life has been severely deprived. All these performance gains by the rinky dink mods is the result of the power of suggestion from the noise. Adolescents have been removing air cleaners and installing straight pipes since Model T Ford days to impress their slack jawed friends with the roar. I suggest instead a good dose of reality.

codewize
11-06-06, 03:02 PM
Ranger; I promise you there is / was no IAT sensor in there. I unplugged nothing to do this swap and ALL of the original duct work has been replaced with the Volant kit. The only thing electrical in the whole deal was the MAF sensor and that didn't even get unplugged. Is the temp sensor built into the MAF sensor?

Hitmoney; I remember you saying previously that you thought there may have been a small drop in tq at the bottom end. So your general opinion is that the CAI with the exhaust are a definite improvement. I remember reading the Dyno thread a while back, I think I PM'ed you about the sound levels a few times.

I'm ready :devilheh:

dkozloski; I hear what you're saying and I agree, BUT I think the folks with dyno runs to prove gains, like HITMONEY, is what I'm looking for. Roar or no roar, the results in black and white are there.

Ranger
11-06-06, 03:20 PM
Ranger; I promise you there is / was no IAT sensor in there. I unplugged nothing to do this swap and ALL of the original duct work has been replaced with the Volant kit. The only thing electrical in the whole deal was the MAF sensor and that didn't even get unplugged. Is the temp sensor built into the MAF sensor?


I have never seen one buit into the MAF. My '97 was mounted in the side of the air box. My daughters previous '99, her '02 SLS and my '03 DHS are in the ducting from the air box to the MAF. I can't imagine why the '01 would be any different. I am at a loss for what to tell you except that I think there has to be one somewhere.

HITMONEY
11-06-06, 04:17 PM
... and my '03 DHS are in the ducting from the air box to the MAF.

That is where its @ on 02 as well.

:confused:

HITMONEY
11-06-06, 04:35 PM
Stroker McGurk says, "You can't feel less than 10% in the seat of your pants." If you don't remember him your life has been severely deprived. All these performance gains by the rinky dink mods is the result of the power of suggestion from the noise. Adolescents have been removing air cleaners and installing straight pipes since Model T Ford days to impress their slack jawed friends with the roar. I suggest instead a good dose of reality.

To each his own I guess.

Stroker McGurk also says an engine is nothing more than an air pump. It is not magic to get performance gains by allowing the engine to pump more air. There is just about nothing else you can do to a N* reasonably to get any gains.

All I did was undue some of the compromise the N* engineers had to make because of nothing more than sound issues. Why is that so hard to understand? They are far from "Rinky Dink" mods, and it really isnt rocket science either. It is where you start with EVERY car, boat or motorcycle when you talk about doing any mods. Hello.

Also, the law of "You don't get HP without compromise somewhere" holds true. Now I have more noise which is fine by me, but I also lost some twist down low and moved it up top... enough so that you can most certainy feel it way beyond any placebo affect which would have worn off months and months ago anyway.

My sled is no Corvette, no AMG, far from an "M" series, and certainly not comparable to any "V". But, what it definitley is, is a Deville that when asked, will demand that you sit up and take notice that not every Deville on the planet is as sudued as the average Geritol popping, AARP weilding owner clogging up the left hand lane of the sunshine state every winter.

:thumbsup:

codewize
11-06-06, 05:39 PM
YEAH ALL THAT ^^^^^

There is no ducting between the airbox and the MAF. The MAF sensor is mounted pretty much to the outlet of the airbox. There's a very small piece between there but no sensors. Plus if it had gotten removed, which I'm sure it didn't, I'm sure the car would be telling me all about it.

It goes airbox outlet > very short fitting just enough to clamp the MAF to > rigid plastic duct > short hump hose > rubber sleeve > TB.

Weird....

What do you think about the BMW 500 series? Should he have walked me like that at hi-way speeds? He didn't fly by me or anything but he was gaining while approaching 90


I have never seen one buit into the MAF. My '97 was mounted in the side of the air box. My daughters previous '99, her '02 SLS and my '03 DHS are in the ducting from the air box to the MAF. I can't imagine why the '01 would be any different. I am at a loss for what to tell you except that I think there has to be one somewhere.

Ranger
11-06-06, 10:22 PM
Something sounds amiss here Codwise. The MAF sensor bolts on to the TB. Then the ducting runs from it to the air box. Are you the first owner? Maybe it has already been modified.

chazglenn3
11-06-06, 11:13 PM
I was going to suggest the same thing, Larry. Someone has already been messing around with your intake if the MAF isn't connected directly to the throttle body. That could explain the loss of power you are feeling after further changing the system.

dkozloski
11-07-06, 09:23 AM
The way to get the power boosts that the other guys get is to do the same thing they do; lie about it.

codewize
11-07-06, 10:08 AM
Very interesting. The picture in the instructions that came with the Volant kit show it exactly like it was. I don't have time right now but I'll scan the instruction page and I'll take some pics of the car. Is it possible that the 01 was unique for some reason? Can we look in a manual?

With the flexible sleeve provided to connect the ducting to the TB I don't think having the MAF up there would work out.

I'll get the pics for you later on but this is all very interesting.

:hmm:

codewize
11-07-06, 06:53 PM
Ok guys, here it is. 2 pics of the instructions and a pic of the install. Now like I said, I just replaced the parts, the MAF is exactly where it was when I started.

No I'm not the original owner, I'm the second owner but I don't think anything had been done to the car before me.

Ranger
11-07-06, 08:15 PM
That is not a stock set up. I can see one on the mounting flanges on the MAF sensor right next to the connector. There should be two more. If you pull that thing apart, you should see 3 tapped hols on the TB face to mount the MAF sensor. Look underneath the ducting for the IAT sensor plug. If it were just unplugged and left hanging, you would have a DTC set. Maybe someone cut the IAT sensor out of the duct, plugged it in and left it loose under the ducting or jumpered it with a resistor or something of the sort. I definately think someone was in there before you.

codewize
11-07-06, 08:25 PM
There are three holes on the MAF sensor but I don't think there's anything that matches those on the TB. I'll look for the IAT tomorrow when it's light. I'll also take a closer look at the TB.

However, do you see that little tab on the TB side of the MAF? On the ducting I removed, there was a provision for that right where it is. I'm really confused.

You do see in the instructions that this is the way they want it installed right.

I have to tell you now that you pointed that out I'm beginning to believe you but why? There was nothing changed that I could tell? All the stuff I took out looked pretty stock to me.

Does someone have a service manual we can look at please.


That is not a stock set up. I can see one on the mounting flanges on the MAF sensor right next to the connector. There should be two more. If you pull that thing apart, you should see 3 tapped hols on the TB face to mount the MAF sensor. Look underneath the ducting for the IAT sensor plug. If it were just unplugged and left hanging, you would have a DTC set. Maybe someone cut the IAT sensor out of the duct, plugged it in and left it loose under the ducting or jumpered it with a resistor or something of the sort. I definately think someone was in there before you.

codewize
11-07-06, 08:48 PM
According to AllData the MAF sensor is in fact connected to the airbox. AND the IAT sensor is part of the MAF

Service and Repair

MASS AIR FLOW (MAF)/INTAKE AIR TEMPERATURE (IAT) SENSOR REPLACEMENT

REMOVAL PROCEDURE
1.) Disconnect the MAF/IAT sensor electrical connector (1).
2.) Remove the clamps securing the MAF/IAT sensor assembly to the air cleaner and intake air duct. NOTE: Refer to Mass Air Flow (MAF) Handling Notice in Service Precautions.
3.) Carefully remove the MAF/IAT sensor from the air cleaner and intake air duct.


INSTALLATION PROCEDURE
1.) Carefully install the MAF/IAT sensor into the air cleaner and intake air duct. NOTE: Refer to Fastener Notice in Service Precautions.
2.) Install the clamps securing the MAF/IAT sensor assembly to the air cleaner and intake air duct. Tighten Tighten the clamps to 3 N.m (27 lb in) .
3.) Reconnect the MAF/IAT sensor electrical connector (1).


That just cost me $25

Ranger
11-07-06, 09:46 PM
Well I'll be dipped. I do not understand that. My '97 Deville had the MAF mounted on the TB with the IAT sensor in the air box. My daughters previous '99 SLS, her current '02 SLS all have the MAF mounted to the TB with the IAT sensor in the duct. I just went out and looked at my '03 DHS and I'll be damned if the MAF isn't moved to the air box end of the duct work. Apparently I never paid that close of attention to it when I cleaned the TB after I bought it in Aug. I stand humbly corrected

codewize
11-07-06, 10:19 PM
That's cool Ranger. I just wanted to know for a fact weather the car had been altered or not. This was all very interesting. Especially that we now know the IAT sensor is in the MAF sensor. Weird indeed

Today I took some time to run the car and pay attention. I found that I think the shift point has moved at WOT. Rather than shifting just above red-line like it used to, I think it shifts sooner. The stranger thing is, right after the shift the car sounds a little boggy before it picks up again. I think it actually revs up slower. I wish there was an easy way to tell

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

chazglenn3
11-09-06, 09:40 PM
I stand humbily next to Larry. I wonder what caused them to move the thing?

eldorado1
11-10-06, 09:42 AM
$50 will buy you 3 dyno runs... easiest way to find out if you broke something. ;)

codewize
11-10-06, 11:43 PM
I should do that, one with the stock box and one with the Volant. I'd really like to know. I need to find a place that does that around here.

dp102288
11-12-06, 08:41 AM
Yeah I want to find a dyno place by me. How do you do that?

codewize
11-12-06, 10:21 AM
I just tried to Google something like 'dyno Albany area' or 'dyno tuning Albany NY' neither of which produced any valuable results. There has to be someone with a dyno in the capital of the state.

I'm going to start asking around, local shops, parts stores, schools, etc

HITMONEY
11-13-06, 03:35 AM
http://www.dynojet.com/dyno_centers/automotive/index.aspx


:thumbsup:

dp102288
11-13-06, 08:47 AM
^^ Thanks for the link!!! :D

codewize
11-13-06, 09:29 AM
Thanks for the info. The closest one of those is still 1.5 hrs away from me. I guess they really don't have any dyno shops in Albany.