: Unidentified noise in front driver side wheel on a hard right



maydog
02-29-04, 05:21 PM
Greetings,

My 97 STS has developed a noise in the front end when making right turns. The sound is only present if I have some speed and seems to be proportional to the amount of centripital force of the turn.

The sound is not really a clicking but sounds like something is rubbing or banging into the dust sheild by the rotor repeatadely. I have taken the wheel off a few time to find nothing loose. I have not taken the rotor off.

There does seem to be some grease caked on the control arm underneath the inner cv boot, but I can find no evidece of the boot leaking.

Has anyone had any experience with this? What does a CV joint or wheel bearing sound like when they go bad? The car drives fine there is no vibration or roughness to the ride just that awful sound.

I will try to get a sample of the sound uploaded later.

Thanks

Lawrence
02-29-04, 05:49 PM
A CV joint will make a kind of clunking sound when your corner. It will be proportionate to your speed (axle RPM) and the severity of the turn. You'll hear the noise with each revolution of the axle. Usually will be worst when accelerating and turning at the same time.

A wheel bearing is more of a stedy noise. Might also bang on a bump, but usually doesn't have much to do with turning.

As bbobyski pointed out to me, pay close attention to the stabilizer bar bushings, even if they look good.

maydog
03-01-04, 06:53 PM
Thanks for the replies,

I have some more info on the mysterious problem.

I had a knowledgable ex-mechanic co-worker have a look at my car and we took a spin. He drove it a bit and noted the the sound was not similar to a CV joint, but he could not pinpoint what it was.

He took the car into a hard turn and shut off the engine. The sound went away. Apparantely the noise is proportional to the engine speed and not the wheel speed.

He suggested that the engine was shifting a bit in the turns causing something to rub.

Any ideas on what it could be?

Thanks

Lawrence
03-01-04, 09:27 PM
Check the motor/transaxle mounts, there are 5. Three below and the two on top. Also check the stabilizer isolators (that mount it to the cradle) and link bushings (to control arm).

maydog
03-01-04, 10:13 PM
Lawrence,

You seem to be the only one interested? Thanks.

I will check the mounts.

I am especially interested in checking the flywheel, because that is what the sound seems like to me. I wonder if it is possible for debris, say a screw, to get in that area and cause some problems? Is there a way to access the bottom of the housing without taking out the engine?

What is the possibility of the bellhousing bolts getting loose? My car just turned over 150K yesterday.

Thanks again.

Lawrence
03-01-04, 10:30 PM
I'm sure everyone is interested, they'll follow until they have something to add.

Both are a longshot. Very Long to Nil.

When a flywheel breaks you will usually notice a sharp rapping or rattling noise in P or N (following engine RPM), and upon accereration/deceleration in P or N. Rarely in gear, but sometimes at idle.

It is really not possible for anything to become lodged in the flywheel area. As it is always turning. If something where there it would immediatly disintegrate and dislodge it. And if not you would hear it at idle. A flywheel to TC bolt could backout if not installed properly, but I don't think it would have anything to do with turning.

Yes, there is and access cover. First you'll need to remove the plastic splash panel, then you would need to remove the bracket between the engine and trans (four bolts on bottom). then you can get to the access cover. One 10mm bolt up high in front.

Bellhousing bolts rarely loosen, even when not properly torqued. They would make very little noise and if they did loosen would destroy the flywheel in a hurry, so it would sound as above.

I'd concentrate on those mounts and bushings.

Good Luck

fast32vsts
03-02-04, 01:14 AM
There is a TSB out for a A/C line that would rub one of the pullys. Dont know if the engine might be shifting just enough, might not take much to make contact.

JAvery20
03-06-04, 05:13 AM
THis may sound crazy.. but check out the starter. My car was making a kinda screechy sound when i was making right handed turns about a year ago.

I took it into the dealer and it turned out to be a bad starter. We originally thought it was a CV joint or something along those lines. But somehow the noise from the starter was bouncing its way out by the front right wheel when it was turned at a certain angle. :hmm: :hmm: :)

El Dobro
03-06-04, 01:33 PM
This may be a longshot too, but did you check to see if there are any rub marks where the tire may be hitting a splash shield? I noticed you said it was on hard rights.

maydog
03-07-04, 12:03 AM
I dont think it is the splash guard as the sound comes in relation to the G force of the turn, not the actual amount the wheel has turned.

I have two new theories. 1. somehow the exhaust is shifting and making the sound or 2. The starter gear or something is striking the flywheel.

The evidence of 1 is that there is already an exhaust rattle and I have looked underneath the car while the car was being torque braked and can see the pipe flex. Also it sounds like the noise is coming from underneath near the cat. I suppose if the engine shifts It would take the pipe with it.

The sound seems more like 2 to me and I have been having intermittent trouble with the starter, at times it just clicks and does not turn the engine. How exactly does the starter gear engage the flywheel. Could it be that the gear is just kind of floating?

When it warms a little I will have to climb underneath, I will try unbolting the cat and see how much play is in the pipes as it is easier than getting to the starter.

maydog
03-27-04, 02:06 AM
Well the weather is warmer and i had a chance to do some more investigation. I went underneath and inspected the flywheel - there is a dust shield but it only covers some of the flywheel. I moved the shield and drove - the sound was still there.

I have been having intemitten problems starting as well. Sometimes the starter wont turn over, I can just hear a thunk from the solenoid. Once a sound similat to the noie i hear in a turn happend just after starting and went away when the car was shut off. I am going to change out the starter and see if it has something to do with this noise - i think that the gear may be floating or something.

maydog
03-27-04, 03:47 PM
Booya,

I took the time to get the starter out today. It took me approximately 2 hours to get it out, longer than I could have done it in as I had to clean out a mouse nest and extract an old broken bolt from the head. Anyway, I think it is quite obvous that the starter was the problem. Check out the following links to see the evidence.

http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/starter-1.wmv
http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/Picture%20022.jpg
http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/Picture%20027.jpg
http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/Picture%20031.jpg

Later

BeelzeBob
03-27-04, 10:26 PM
Booya,

I took the time to get the starter out today. It took me approximately 2 hours to get it out, longer than I could have done it in as I had to clean out a mouse nest and extract an old broken bolt from the head. Anyway, I think it is quite obvous that the starter was the problem. Check out the following links to see the evidence.

http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/starter-1.wmv
http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/Picture%20022.jpg
http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/Picture%20027.jpg
http://maydog.dyndns.org/www/starter/Picture%20031.jpg

Later

Good catch. I would never have thought of that..!!!

What are you guys doing to get the mice nests....????...LOL You are the second person in the last week to post on a cadillac forum about finding a mouse nest under the intake..!!! Quite parking your car in the field and drive it....LOL.

BeelzeBob
03-27-04, 10:58 PM
BTW...how many miles on your car and how often do you use the starter...does the car get a lot of stops and starts and short trips?? The starter gear is way worn (obviously...) much more than I have seen even on high mileage livery cars. Either it gets used a lot or...????....

Actually, the starter isn't too bad to get to was it..?? Beats laying under the car and getting dirt in your eyes. And the starter seems to be in pretty good shape other than the wear and tear from use. It would probably be good to go with a new overrunning clutch/gear.

maydog
03-28-04, 02:16 AM
The car has 151K on it, I purchased it at 119K. I do not know if it was the original starter. I have driven the vehicle pretty regularly since buying it, the longest it has been sitting was a week in a parking ramp. The occumpant had obviously moved out, there was not carcass - just a lot of dried grass and stuffing.

I assume the gear was worn due to hitting the flywheel when the car is running. I noticed the problem a few months ago around the time I installed my remote starter. It may be related to that install as the documentation was incorrect and caused the starter motor to overrun - but that was only maybe 10 to 20 starts until it was corrected.

I have bought a new unit and will install it tomorrow, I have not changed many starters. In my experience, however, this was the most work I had to do to get one out - the others I just had to contort myself to get to them. The engine looks pretty naked without the intake.

The worst part is that I may have given myself a small concussion while taking the unit out as I banged my head into a shelf as I was readhing to get a tool off the floor. I have quite the knot on my head and a bad headache.

BeelzeBob
03-29-04, 03:37 PM
I always love it when the whole story comes out....that part about the remote starter and the overly long cranks makes a lot of sense looking at that gear. I'm surprised that the starter took the abuse that many times.

Some starters are undoubably easier to change than the Northstar...but there are many many starters that are a whole lot harder. Some require removing part of the exhaust to access parts and such...and you have to get the car in the air to access the starter underneath. The Northstar is really pretty simple, over the fender with hand tools.

By putting the starter in the valley of the engine it is kept cool, clean and dry...so it lasts a long long time compared to starters that are basted by heat and salt water and dirt under the car. Yours is a perfect examble if it went 151K and also endured 10-20 overspeeds due to the remote starter episode.

maydog
03-29-04, 06:55 PM
Yes, I may have some recourse with the company that produces the remote start, even though the problem appeared weeks after I corrected the wiring. I had several long converstaions with them about the start not working correctly - they were trying to blame me for installing it incorrectly. After a few days they sent me the corrected wiring diagram, but never issues an apology. They assumed that I had no Idea what I wa talking about.

The starter interlock is a good thing - it may have saved my unit from being a complete dud, but why not expand the protection and make the interlock disable the starter after the engine get to running speed? I am sure a lot of cadillac's regular customers (fairly old folks) regularly hold on a bit too long.

onecad
03-29-04, 09:41 PM
On most auto starters I have installed there is a tach adjustment usually done via the remote in combination with the pin switch etc.(see manual for actual directions) Adjusting the tach setting on the remote starter tells the starter how long to stay engaged. Your option is to test the settings by starting the car at each one, if the remote start is capable of this function.

Many remote starters have an automatic detection upon the installation, then it stays at that setting for every other start, but its not necessarily the best one. You may have to adjust slightly different from the automatic setting. If your remote start doesn't have this ability to manually adjust the tach setting I would consider purchasing a system that does, it will save your car starter from burning out so fast.

As bbobysnki usually suggests it would be a good idea to clean your phenolic spacers while you are replacing the starter, I can't remember, maybe you said you replaecd the starter already. Oh well.

maydog
03-29-04, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the advice - I cleaned everything as it was pretty dirty in there. The problem with the starter was not in the programming. They had the acc and starter wire switched in their wiring diagram, so the starter would stay on until the starterinterlock kicked in after several seconds. I did this several times as I was trying to troubleshoot the install.

BeelzeBob
03-30-04, 01:07 PM
As bbobysnki usually suggests it would be a good idea to clean your phenolic spacers while you are replacing the starter, .

bbobynski didn't suggest the phenolic spacers this time because the original post is about a 97 I think.....and 97 Northstars do NOT have phenolic spacers..... as bbobynski actually says.....only 93/94 Northstars have phenolic spacers between the intake and the cylinder head. Any Northstar with a plastic intake manifold has the EGR delivery into the manifold itself and thus does not have phenolic spacers......