: Lady In Distress - '01 Northstar Intermittent Stalling & Not Starting - Clues Please?



XChoppers
10-08-06, 01:20 AM
Hi,

I have spent some hours on this great forum here, trying to find some answers before posting, as to not duplicate Q & A’s. I have learned a lot although I can not seem to find a possible answer to the combination of problems I have with my 2001 Eldorado. – Northstar.

I was finally able to purchase my dream car, 2001 Northstar two years ago with 18,000K miles. The car now only has a little over 31,000k miles and I have thoroughly enjoyed the car until a few weeks ago.

#1 – My car is dying at stops or when just cruising slowly down a quiet street. No warning, just dies. I put it in park or neutral and it re-starts immediately. If the car had a carb, first thought and feeling would be to turn up the idle. It dies under all conditions – a/c on or off, hot day or mild day etc. etc.

#2 – In the last two weeks, I drive to a location about 10 minutes away, park for 20-30 minutes, return, and my beloved car will not start. The symptoms are like a car out of gas, tries to start strongly but will not “fire”. After a few tries, or waiting 10-15 minutes, and usually a few failed tries the car then starts, then is trouble free for a few more days and “startups”.

I am hoping that the above combination or problems might be a clue to my problem before approaching a mechanic “cold” or my husband, who has been building thousand horse Chevies for 40 years but the new age of electronics is a whole new world to him and is just now starting to read along with me in the forums here, on how to decipher the electronics of this great car.

…Need my car to hopefully get to our sons’ wedding in 2 weeks without grief. THEN time to spend some time in your forums here reading advice from all of the generous posters and moderators

Thank you in advance, hoping that my above combination of problems gives enough information to help us either fix the problem, or approach a mechanic with a few

I_Finally_Have_A_Cad
10-08-06, 09:51 AM
A few things came to mind, but first thing is first; have you checked the codes yet? Do that and then come back with the results. If you don't know how, just ask.

Ranger
10-08-06, 10:16 AM
Definately pull the DTC's first. You have classic symptoms of a failing CKP aka CPS (Crankshaft Position Sensor). GM had a bad supplier and almost every '01, '02 and some '03's have been replaced. There are two, an "A" & "B" sensor. R & R them both.

That should eliminate the dying problem. If the hard hot starts persist, check for a leaky FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator).

XChoppers
10-08-06, 11:28 AM
Great thank you so much. It looks like we are on the way to get my dream car back to being reliable and enjoyable. I will keep everyone updated as to our progress to hopefully help others. Again, it is the car I wanted for a long time and planned to be my hopefully “last car”. We are going to start this afternoon, IF all is quiet. We have a metric customs motorcycle business, so I get put on the bottom of the list a lot with my “live in” mechanic (my husband).

In reading, I am seeing that these cars actually have more than an “off the shelf” gas cap, and above fuel pressure is mentioned. When I go to fill my car with gas (highest octane/premium) I have to “throttle” and play with the gas pump nozzle, in a lay term, the gas pump nozzle keeps clicking off, I can not just push the nozzle in, lock it, and let it automatically run. Hence, the gas pump nozzle keeps shutting of like the tank is full. This happens on all pumps, at all filling stations. Just tossing out another hopeful clue.

Thanks!

I_Finally_Have_A_Cad
10-08-06, 11:58 AM
The issue at the gas pump is nothing. My deville does that all the time. I am not sure why. I think it is a bottle neck thing. Just pump a little slower on the automatic setting and you should be fine.

Also, before you go nuts trying to find/fix the problem, check those codes. You don't need any tools to do it. Do you know how?

XChoppers
10-08-06, 01:46 PM
The issue at the gas pump is nothing. My deville does that all the time. I am not sure why. I think it is a bottle neck thing. Just pump a little slower on the automatic setting and you should be fine. Unfortunately mine shuts off at the lowest auto pump settings. I've tried many differant pumps and it shuts off with all of them. Even pumping by hand takes time because the pump keeps shutting off while I'm standing there.


Also, before you go nuts trying to find/fix the problem, check those codes. You don't need any tools to do it. Do you know how? We don't have a code reader. Do you know of a way to read codes without one?

JimD
10-08-06, 03:08 PM
....

We don't have a code reader. Do you know of a way to read codes without one?

See post #1 here http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-tech-tips/72494-how-pull-codes.html

urbanski
10-08-06, 03:11 PM
We don't have a code reader. Do you know of a way to read codes without one?

if the other suggestion does not work, autozone, oreilly's, any other autoparts store will scan you free....then post the code :)
they also sell cheap scanners for like 40 bux, you could do that.

wydopnthrtl
10-08-06, 08:41 PM
This last spring I bought a 01 eldo w/northstar. Mine did the EXACT same thing. Died w/o warning. And it gave no DTCs either.

I read here about the crank position sensors and choose to swap them. I did and it's been perfect in the 20k miles since. Price was about $160 for both from the dealership w/me doing the work myself.

btw: Any autozone can scan and clear the codes for free.

Rich

XChoppers
10-08-06, 10:10 PM
Thanks a lot for that information! It sounds like changing those parts would be a good thing to try. By any chance, do you still have the part numbers for them?
Also, where are they installed?
My guess is where the crankshaft protrudes through the timing cover on the front but I have no experience working on this engine so it's all new to me.

Signed,
Lady in Distress's husband.

P.S. - By the way, both my wife and I are very impressed by the willingness of everyone on this forum to help!
Thanks! :)

Ranger
10-08-06, 10:19 PM
I believe the CKP sensors are mounted on the side of the engine above the oil filter adapter which needs to be removed for access. I saw a pic recently. If I can find it I will edit this post top add it.

Edit:
The pic was deleted from the post but here is the next best thing, coutesty of Mashbill.
www.mashbill.com (http://www.mashbill.com)
Ok, that didn't work :histeric: Try post #10 in this thread. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-deville-1985-2005-including-1985/86255-cps-photos-anyone.html?highlight=crankshaft+position+sensor

Rockauto lists A/C Delco part numbers as 2131579 & 2131578. $32.78 each. They are listed as an ignition part.
Auto Parts Fast at RockAuto (http://www.rockauto.com)

wydopnthrtl
10-08-06, 10:53 PM
Ranger is correct. Those are the numbers I installed. And yes you need to remove the oil filter housing.

It's not too hard of a job. But a little frustrating. Took me a little over 1 hour to do.

Rich

http://home.comcast.net/~rbickford325611mi/images/Caddy_crank_sensors.JPG

MUGSANDLUKE
10-09-06, 11:27 AM
Just one more suggestion if you don't mind. I had a similar problem and found that the injectors were clogged so badly that there were period of time when the engine starved for fuel and shut down or idled very rough and then quit. A full service injector cleaning may also help alleviate your problems. An inexpensive fix if that's what the problem, or one of the problems, is.

JimHare
10-09-06, 01:12 PM
... When I go to fill my car with gas (highest octane/premium)...

Not to jump around, but you don't need premium in your car. Runs just fine on regular old 87 octane.

No wonder ExxonMobil made 10 gazillion dollars last week.. :)

Good luck with your CPS. I hope that's the only problem. Minor and cheap to do/get done.

MashBill
10-10-06, 04:42 PM
Here is the Link for CKP Replacement (http://www.mashbill.com/public/CKP.htm). This info is from the factory service manual.

Hope verything works out for you!

Bill

85Y
10-10-06, 11:25 PM
Has the possibility of a bad fuel pump been ruled out? With fuel pumps, my experience used to be that they wounld show signs of trouble at higher RPMs. That is why when I was having similar problems as yours I immediately though crank pos sensors. Then I learned that my year didn't have the trouble-prone sensors installed so I went to the fuel pressure test. It showed normal most of the time but then unplugging the vacuum FP regulator line (which should have increased fuel pressure) hardly did anything. A new pump and I was good to go.

ELDOminator
10-11-06, 09:22 AM
How much did the new pump run ya? And is that a Stealership kinda job?

XChoppers
10-12-06, 07:42 PM
Can anyone describe the CKP System Variation Learn Procedure for a 2001 Eldo?
Does the ECU automatically "learn" the new sensors?

The parts came in today and I'm ready to install them in my wife's car.

Thanks everyone! :D

Ranger
10-12-06, 08:22 PM
I think they are just plug 'n play. Never heard anyone mention a learn proceedure. If needed, these cars are pretty damn smart and can learn on their own.

jss
10-13-06, 12:32 PM
How much did the new pump run ya? And is that a Stealership kinda job?

Dominator, for my 94 Seville, at O'Reilly's the fuel filter was $12 and the pump was $85. Installation about 2.5 hours.

If you can change your own spark plugs, clean a throttle-body and hold 25 pounds over your head for five minutes, then you can probably fight your way through replacing a fuel pump. Here are a few notes;

- Drive until the tank is as empty as you are comfortable driving it with
- You'll have to remove the shielding between the exhaust and the floor
- Removing the filler hose from the funnel to the tank is a son-of-a-gun
- Do work in a well ventilated area

Good luck

FrankT
10-15-06, 08:07 AM
Can anyone describe the CKP System Variation Learn Procedure for a 2001 Eldo?
Does the ECU automatically "learn" the new sensors?

The parts came in today and I'm ready to install them in my wife's car.

Thanks everyone! :D

The crankshaft position system variation learning feature is used to calculate reference period errors caused by slight tolerance variations in the crankshaft, and the crankshaft position sensors. It should be performed after a pcm replacement, or any repair that disturbs the crankshaft to crankshaft position relationship.

You will need a scan tool to perform crank learn. If you have already replaced the sensors, driven the vehicle and DTCs P1336 or any mis-fire DTCs have not set, then you might not worry about it. ( it's up to you)
Have a nice weekend,
Frank T

XChoppers
10-25-06, 12:48 AM
A BIG THANK YOU to the moderator and all in here for taking the time to help.

Due to time constraints we purchased the CPS Sensors and a fuel filter. Even though we have a lift etc in our shop/garage, it was decided that we would take the car to our good friends shop for the install.

Our "friendly mechanic" also ascertained that the problem was the above mentioned sensors and fuel filter, (or just read the printouts of the above posts).

Almost one week now, no more CHECK ENGINE light, stalling, hard starts.

A Huge Relief!

I normally support forum sponsors but because of time constraints had to secure parts fast. When checking this forums sponsors and links, I did find the BEST prices anywhere. My sensors were purchased at a local parts store for about $35.00 and $39.00 each.

I will now shop for the replacement tail light and dinged chrome strip that some jerk in a parking lot tapped me. Good thing he/she did not wait around. Again, this is my dream car, 2001 ESC, we found it 2 years ago with 18K miles, still smelled show-room new, and in car show condition.

Thank You all again!

Almost Forgot......I also read above about the Recall on the CPS Sensors. I called GM and they checked my VIN. GM stated that the Sensors had been changed on my car during the recall and on the cars original extended warranty. :confused:

Ranger
10-25-06, 01:24 AM
Glad you got it taken care of and thanks for the feed back. If there was a recall on the CKP's, that's news to me. Enjoy your Caddy.